Rllmuk racing wheel thread

[Shimmyhill]

@spatular the loadcell on the CSL is much better than standard brake - straight away I was faster with it because its much easier to be consistent with pressure rather than travel, where the CSL falls down IMO is the balance of pedal movement and modulation as you have read, adding the spring to the stack defi improves this but having had the original clubsport pedals I preferred how they felt. You can adjust the amount of force you need to hit 100% braking, it can be made pretty soft but its still linear without the mods.

 

Ive never used the V3’s so its a bit of a blind purchase and ive since seen reviews that prefer the brake pedal on the CSL Elite V3’s 🤨 and ive accepted Fanatec will release a V4 set soon and no doubt I will get upgrade fever all over again 😂

 

I would say before you get any loadcell figure out the mounting - you really do want a solid mount for the pedals, I get lots of flex on my pedal tray and more still on the wheel deck and knowing what I know now and what I want from a rig I wouldn’t buy the setup I have and got something more solid straight away. I dont regret what I have as its a huge price vs ‘will I actually use it’ but I could have saved some money thats for sure.

 

Don’t worry about all the questions, ive asked many similar ones before and picked up loads of info from the helpful chaps here.

[Corranga]

10 hours ago, spatular said:

It works well!

 

thanks for the reply! Yeah i think i prefer rubber to alcantara too, am super tempted by the wheel! Xbox support on the wrc one would be good but yeah maybe not as like you say its a lot more cost, and ive got the gt3 one that works on xbox anyway.

 

ive been reading about load cells far too much today (and how to attach them to stuff), was thinking about just getting the upgrade load cell for the csl pedals - but reviews ive seen seem to compare them badly to the v3 and elite ones, both 300 euros at the moment (well 20 extra for the performance kit) but thats without the mod for the csl load kit, but yourself and @Shimmyhill both have those with the mod and still decided to upgrade (i think thats right ayway). Apparently its to do with the pedal travel, apparently you want a bit of travel that is easier to move the pedal, then after that it should be a lot harder, does that sound right, does the csl with mod provide this sort of thing? Without the mod its apparently just hard to press with no give at all, I mean thats my understanding of it from watching/reading some reviews, ive never used a load cell, im sure even that would be better than without a load cell. So sort of tempted by one of the more expensive pedal sets if they are going to be worth the upgrade but wouldnt be able to get a wheel as well then (and then you get into elite vs v3 haha, i guess v3 makes more sense now as its a lot of money off, bur seems like if there was no sale on youd not be missing out on much going for the elites).

 

sorry for asking so many questions that you guys have probably been through before!

 

edit - now this is a real pro sim rig

 

 

 

 

Honestly, ask away. I love talking sim gear!

 

At the same time, I think it's worth understanding that I have a slight excess of cash to throw at my sim setup having not been using my actual cars much over the past couple of years.  Basically, if I went out for an actual drive in my fun car, at 16-18mpg, I'd be spending 60-70 quid on fuel for the day.  I got a little Covid shy and didn't head out much, and decided to go all in on a sim setup (well, no PC, I play console only) in May 2020.  I started with all the gear I'd ever need, Playseat challenge, Fanatec CSL Elite.  A couple of months later, I added the load cell, then I modded the Playseat itself with raised pedals, stronger clamps to hold the pedals still, 3D printed stability brackets etc.

 

 

When the GT DD Pro launched, I was considering buying a gaming PC, but decided instead to invest in my rig, so CSL Elite was out, and DD Pro was in, and the Playseat was swapped out for a SimLabs GT2.  Note, my loadcell is missing in this photo, as it was returned within about 2 months with a broken elastomer shore (the black rubber rings that represent the spring in the load cell pedals)  I had previous for this as I broke on in the CSL Elite's too.  this is because I was chasing the feel of a road sports car with no servo, so longer travel, and quite hard at the end.  

 

 

At this point, I was very much chasing the last 10% of feel, the Playseat Challenge was was great out of the box, the mods made it a fantastic, the shift to extruded aluminium made it solid, 100%, no flex what so ever.

 

ive been reading about load cells far too much today (and how to attach them to stuff), was thinking about just getting the upgrade load cell for the csl pedals - but reviews ive seen seem to compare them badly to the v3 and elite ones, both 300 euros at the moment (well 20 extra for the performance kit)

 

The V3 pedals are fairly old now, but rank above the others in everyway and have continuously been improved, I've not read a bad review (though some say the performance kit is a must), some reviews call them "the only pedal you'll ever need" for example.  But of course they come at a cost.

 

but thats without the mod for the csl load kit, but yourself and @Shimmyhill both have those with the mod and still decided to upgrade (i think thats right ayway).

 

I think @Shimmyhill has the 3D Rap mod on his perhaps?  Someone on here does.  It is designed to give the pedal longer movement, and a I think a more progressive feel (as in soft first and then harder at the end).  I'm using a home done mod using some die springs, and plastic spacers which does the same:

 

 

It does add travel to the pedal, but the design of the pedals basically means that the travel can never be that long.  They are designed to be like a race car which apparently has a hard pedal with little travel.  If you like this, then it won't be a problem, they are very good pedals, just don't quite fit my need.

In terms of Load Cell vs regular potentiometer based brake, the difference is big.  If you can train yourself to modulate brakes by the distance you press the pedal (eg regular pot brake) then you can likely be as quick either way, but if you want realism, having an LC (pressure based) brake is much better as of course, a real car brake is pressure based.  It's great for trail braking, as you can naturally floor the pedal hard to start breaking, then also naturally peel your foot off.  It's also great for muscle memory, I find it almost instinctive to brake at half or quarter power for example.

 

Apparently its to do with the pedal travel, apparently you want a bit of travel that is easier to move the pedal, then after that it should be a lot harder, does that sound right, does the csl with mod provide this sort of thing? Without the mod its apparently just hard to press with no give at all

 

This is almost true.  Actually without the mod the CSL gives the correct feel (soft then hard) just on a very, very short axis, and overall, it's very hard to begin with - so it starts off very hard and then goes to extremely hard to press.  As I like a hard pedal, I was running the load cell at 90% (where 100% is the hardest you need to press to get full braking) and I believe if you push the elastomer shores beyond 50% of their original size, they split - which is what happened to mine.  If you run the load cell softer, and can deal with little travel the pedals are probably excellent. They are very sturdy, remove the side to side movement that the old Elites suffered from, look nice etc.

 

I mean thats my understanding of it from watching/reading some reviews, ive never used a load cell, im sure even that would be better than without a load cell. So sort of tempted by one of the more expensive pedal sets if they are going to be worth the upgrade but wouldnt be able to get a wheel as well then (and then you get into elite vs v3 haha, i guess v3 makes more sense now as its a lot of money off, bur seems like if there was no sale on youd not be missing out on much going for the elites).

 

Obviously, I've not actually used V3s at this point, so all based on spec / reviews...

 

The V3 pedals offer a lot more tuning ability.  You can have them soft and long, or hard and short, and lots in between.  They are easier to tune too.

The CSLs are hard and short.

The Elites are long (but not as long as the V3 I believe).  The Elite load cell is mounted in the pedal itself (using flex in the pedal) rather than at the base like the CSL and V3 pedals, this means that you foot position on the pedal face actually changes the amount you brake.  This isn't a massive issue as you do get used to it and end up muscle memory positioning your foot, well I guess depending on the stability and standard setup of your rig perhaps.

 

Beyond that, we've only been talking about brake.  The V3 throttle has a spring (2 different rates) to tune the return and the opportunity to fit a damper on brake or throttle.

The V3 clutch (if you use one, I don't have a shifter, but am interested in getting one at some point) has a camshaft style design, emulating biting point apparently rather well.  The Elite and CSL clutch is just a potentiometer brake with the piece of hard foam used to make the brake stiffer removed.

The V3 allow much better pedal face changing too.  With the Elites and V3's, I have to set my pedals at an angle to get the faces close to an angle I want, with the V3, I can simply change the angle of the face.

 

I'd say, pedals are more important than a wheel rim, but then I bought other rims before the V3 pedals, and if you feel the addition of the larger rim and bigger paddles lets you play more games, that's probably more important.  I should have elaborated above, I wouldn't want to use the gear paddle as a handbrake as I'd prefer to be driving with manual gears, and the P1 wheel only has 2 paddles so it'd be either brake, or gears.

 

In summary, I think my advice would be...

- Don't assume the CSL pedals are bad just because Shimmy and I are moving away from them, they're not. 

- Any load cell is going to be better than a non-load cell.  For me, the move from non-LC to LC was probably as revolutionary in feel as the move from belt drive base to direct drive, and in my own performance (well, consistency really) helped much, much more.

- A load cell feels more real as it's reading the brake based on pressure, not position, like a real car.

- Pressure is easier to define for our legs and feet, which aren't particularly accurate things.

- Personally, I think you should invest in pedals, and getting stability / no movement in your pedals above pretty much anything for performance / consistency improvement.

 

 

 

[SharkyOB]

Some awesome setups here!   Just wanted to post mine too, as it's pretty modest compared to some of the above.  I have the same stand @Shimmyhill uses, but I've not had any issues using it at my sofa:

 

 

Stand - GT Omega Classic

Wheel base - Moza R9

Rim - Moza CS

Pedals - Thrustmaster T-LCM (excellent loadcell pedals)

H-Shifter - Thrustmaster TH8A

 

I'm also using a button box I got from ebay (complete with Rllmuk racing sticker on top, donated by the awesome @Valver) and a usb hub mounted to the stand, which acts as an interface for all of the separate components.  Here's an older shot where you can see the shifter and the usb hub through the rim.

 

 

 

The massive advantage of a sofa based setup like this is it means I can use my home cinema setup for racing.

[Shimmyhill]

I have a spring / elastomer combo…

 

 

@Corranga is spot on with all the points and reasons - he also appears to have a pair of Philips X2 so clearly to be trusted!

 

Also ive found out that looking at new wheels to buy ends up with you buying other essential sim racing gear….

 

[SharkyOB]

Ha, that happened to me too:

 

 

 

[Shimmyhill]

Lego (with what looks like wickedbrick stands - I just ordered some more stuff from them), model cars, Radiohead art, sim racing…. Are you me @SharkyOB  

[SharkyOB]

Seems that way! If you're into Transformers and hate the Star Wars prequels I'd say we were separated at birth 😅

 

[Shimmyhill]

5 hours ago, SharkyOB said:

Seems that way! If you're into Transformers and hate the Star Wars prequels I'd say we were separated at birth 😅

 

 

 

If contemplating buying the Lego Optimus prime counts… Star Wars prequels are terrible!

[Corranga]

2 hours ago, Shimmyhill said:

@Corranga is spot on with all the points and reasons - he also appears to have a pair of Philips X2 so clearly to be trusted!

 

Also ive found out that looking at new wheels to buy ends up with you buying other essential sim racing gear….

 

 

48 minutes ago, Shimmyhill said:

Lego (with what looks like wickedbrick stands - I just ordered some more stuff from them), model cars, Radiohead art, sim racing…. Are you me @SharkyOB  

 

I think you might be me too.  Sim racing, X2's, Lego, like of small Italian cars...  I haven't bought any diecast models that aren't cars I've owned for years mind. 

I do have the Lego RSR though

 

[snowbind]

[spatular]

4 hours ago, Shimmyhill said:

@spatular the loadcell on the CSL is much better than standard brake - straight away I was faster with it because its much easier to be consistent with pressure rather than travel,

 

4 hours ago, Corranga said:

In summary, I think my advice would be...

- Don't assume the CSL pedals are bad just because Shimmy and I are moving away from them, they're not. 

- Any load cell is going to be better than a non-load cell. 

thanks for all the info and detailed replies! think these bits ^ tell me i should get the csl load cell while it's on offer, and see how i get on, probably end up with one of those spring mods at some point too. like you guys say i'll have to get them more stable, i've got some ideas for that which i think should work ok.

 

the v3 pedals sound great, i think you guys are going to really like them!

 

there's some great setups everyone has too

[snowbind]

I upgraded from the shitty thrustmasters to the v3's and found about 5 seconds. 

[Shimmyhill]

3 hours ago, spatular said:

 

thanks for all the info and detailed replies! think these bits ^ tell me i should get the csl load cell while it's on offer, and see how i get on, probably end up with one of those spring mods at some point too. like you guys say i'll have to get them more stable, i've got some ideas for that which i think should work ok.

 

the v3 pedals sound great, i think you guys are going to really like them!

 

there's some great setups everyone has too

 

You know the rules state you have to post a pic of your setup now and everytime you make an incremental upgrade a new pic is required  

[davejm]

1 hour ago, Shimmyhill said:

 

You know the rules state you have to post a pic of your setup now and everytime you make an incremental upgrade a new pic is required  

 

Haha in that case, I'm not sure if I've posted since I got my HE Sprints 😄

 

 

[Shimmyhill]

That’s a sexy set of pedals there @davejm and ive heard they are amazing and a step up from the Fanatecs - wish consoles allowed a bit more choice with pedals! 

 

What rig is that?

[davejm]

7 minutes ago, Shimmyhill said:

That’s a sexy set of pedals there @davejm and ive heard they are amazing and a step up from the Fanatecs - wish consoles allowed a bit more choice with pedals! 

 

What rig is that?

 

Yeah, pedals are a bit of a step up; but definitely in the realms of diminishing returns at the price.  I think any load cell pedals are a game changer.

 

The rig is a GT Omega Prime.  Solid as!!

[spatular]

yeah that's amazing!

 

3 hours ago, Shimmyhill said:

 

You know the rules state you have to post a pic of your setup now and everytime you make an incremental upgrade a new pic is required  

my setup is super boring, big table with a wheel clamp and tv, pedals on the floor 

Spoiler

and is super messy and embarrassing

 

so i found something more interesting (well imo anyway), my first force feedback wheel, think it's ~20 years old, not sure where the pedals are, wheel makes dodgy noises when rotated

 

 

[Shimmyhill]

On 28/11/2022 at 15:25, spatular said:

 

thanks for all the info and detailed replies! think these bits ^ tell me i should get the csl load cell while it's on offer, and see how i get on, probably end up with one of those spring mods at some point too. like you guys say i'll have to get them more stable, i've got some ideas for that which i think should work ok.

 

the v3 pedals sound great, i think you guys are going to really like them!

 

there's some great setups everyone has too

 

What have you ordered!?

 

17 hours ago, spatular said:

yeah that's amazing!

 

my setup is super boring, big table with a wheel clamp and tv, pedals on the floor 

  Reveal hidden contents

and is super messy and embarrassing

 

so i found something more interesting (well imo anyway), my first force feedback wheel, think it's ~20 years old, not sure where the pedals are, wheel makes dodgy noises when rotated

 

 

 

Blast from the past - think my first wheel was a MS sidewinder and loved playing Grand Prix series, Grand Prix Legends and even a bit of Nascar/Indycar back in the day. All my old wheels have long gone, always upgrading or changing systems and a starting again 😂

[spatular]

2 hours ago, Shimmyhill said:

 

What have you ordered!?

 

 

Blast from the past - think my first wheel was a MS sidewinder and loved playing Grand Prix series, Grand Prix Legends and even a bit of Nascar/Indycar back in the day. All my old wheels have long gone, always upgrading or changing systems and a starting again 😂

ordered the csl load cell upgrade

yeah those games were great! Iirc i mostly played colin mcrae rally 2, gpl, and midtown madness (2?) with that wheel

[Corranga]

On 25/11/2022 at 13:11, Shimmyhill said:

now to see what the UPS tax bill will be!

 

79 quid for me. UPS take 11.50 for  the privilege, but other than that 11.50 it's the same as pre-brexit would have been.

 

Also, it seems Fanatec screwed up BF and over-sold a bunch of the old F1 wheels so have started sending apology emails with 10% discounts in them...

[Shimmyhill]

4 hours ago, Corranga said:

 

79 quid for me. UPS take 11.50 for  the privilege, but other than that 11.50 it's the same as pre-brexit would have been.

 

Also, it seems Fanatec screwed up BF and over-sold a bunch of the old F1 wheels so have started sending apology emails with 10% discounts in them...

£59.42 for me - delivery due on Monday so that’s pretty decent given how busy they were.

 

I didn’t end up buying a wheel, I want something like the McLaren GT3 but maybe a bit more premium materials etc and they don’t really have one do they so will end up buying it and not getting the saving….. 
 

Ive also pretty much decided to sell in the loadcell pedal but keep the old pedals as it’s part of the DD Pro package so may as well keep that together so if anyone wants a CSL loadcell pedal I’m your man 😉

[Corranga]

6 hours ago, Shimmyhill said:

Ive also pretty much decided to sell in the loadcell pedal but keep the old pedals as it’s part of the DD Pro package so may as well keep that together so if anyone wants a CSL loadcell pedal I’m your man 😉

 

Oh that’s interesting, I hadn’t thought of that, but was a bit worried about splitting the bundle too

[Shimmyhill]

17 hours ago, Corranga said:

 

Oh that’s interesting, I hadn’t thought of that, but was a bit worried about splitting the bundle too

Let’s face it we will be upgrading as soon as Fanatec announce a clubsport DD or similar so may as well keep it together as a boxed package - can get some back for the loadcell and man maths that as a win 😉

 

Mine have apparently been delivered, hopefully to a neighbour as not home yet!

[Shimmyhill]

23 hours ago, Shimmyhill said:

Mine have apparently been delivered, hopefully to a neighbour as not home yet!

 

Just got back from a few days away and the delivered to the ‘garage’ as noted by the UPS driver was in-fact more wedged between the garage and the wheelie bin open to the elements…. The next delivery driver approved of this as put a delivery for my partner on top of the Fanatec box and both do still seem dry so hopefully got away with it.

 

@Corranga have you got yours yet? Im going to let mine acclimatise before setting them up but an early test of just the pedal feel gives me immediate hope they will feel lots better with more travel on the brake - im going to put the black spring onto the throttle as every guide ive seen says its better and stiffer. 

 

I guess I should update them and the wheel base but that does involve firing up the worlds slowest laptop that will need to be updated itself no doubt 🤬

[Corranga]

45 minutes ago, Shimmyhill said:

@Corranga have you got yours yet?

Delivery estimation for me is Wednesday, I’m the wrong side of Edinburgh 😂

[Shimmyhill]

58 minutes ago, Corranga said:

Delivery estimation for me is Wednesday, I’m the wrong side of Edinburgh 😂

 

Ahh that sucks, obv I didnt quickly update and fit them and have patiently waited to set them up properly and change the spring over…

 

Say I had installed them then I can see what people say the tuning kit is essential - with my modded CSL I had the brake set to 60% on the wheel, I think I could blow the pedals to 100% on this setting on the V3 - I had it to 90% and still way too soft but then folks coming round interrupted play… will have to adjust the pre-load but think you will want to get the harder elastomers in straight away.

 

They do feel great tho, lots of travel on the accelerator and brake and fit onto my pedal plate without any modding needed (CSL pedals didnt line up with std Fanatec holes) and they look fantastic of course!

[Shimmyhill]

Do you have yours up and running yet @Corranga?

 

I haven’t been able to play with them much as have been really ill of late, tried the last TT for a quick session but couldn’t stay on long as was breaking out in hot sweats after a few mins- was mainly trying to setup the brake pedal. I think I had it the wrong way round before and upping the power was going in the wrong direction  I am finding the pedal as standard is very soft with lots of travel and obv the loadcell can take more force - I am having to back off the power in the settings loads - i want more resistance in the pedal so need the tuning kit….. 

 

Now that I understand that at least im getting on lots better with it, it is a much better pedal than the CSL loadcell as for me that doesn’t have enough travel to allow easy modulation - I suspect some will like that and can see why the CSL elite v2 will work well as they seem to sit between the others in terms of travel and stiffness as standard.

 

Im off to order the kit to let me adjust, €17 postage is still upsetting me but maybe overall cheaper as no import duties onto if bought at the same time…..

 

 

[Corranga]

4 minutes ago, Shimmyhill said:

Do you have yours up and running yet @Corranga?

 

Mine arrived yesterday, and I managed to get it on the rig, after some initial setup.  I'd watched a couple of videos on YouTube and took their recommendations so first removed the damper kit from the brake and fitted it to the throttle pedal (damper is included with my inverted pedals), then changed out the throttle pedal spring for the stronger one, then fitted the performance kit with red and green 13 shores, then bolted it to my rig.

The throttle is way too long feeling, my heel was moving rather than just pivoting on it, and it was stretching my ankle too much so I started messing about with the pedal faces, then it was a bit late, so I've left it in a few bits, so I need to sort that. I think I might also have to change the angle on my pedal tray as it was obviously set up for the old pedals too.

 

Then, the green and red 13 from the performance kit is too short for me (it makes harder and therefore shorter) so I think I want to switch those out too, but that means dismantling the back of the brake pedal so I may leave it and see if I get used to it.  It's immediately better feeling than the old one regardless. The pedal face is at an odd angle too so that'll need sorted too.

 

I wonder if the massive amount of adjustability is worse than none as it now means I'm actually thinking about all these angles etc!

[Shimmyhill]

3 hours ago, Corranga said:

 

Mine arrived yesterday, and I managed to get it on the rig, after some initial setup.  I'd watched a couple of videos on YouTube and took their recommendations so first removed the damper kit from the brake and fitted it to the throttle pedal (damper is included with my inverted pedals), then changed out the throttle pedal spring for the stronger one, then fitted the performance kit with red and green 13 shores, then bolted it to my rig.

The throttle is way too long feeling, my heel was moving rather than just pivoting on it, and it was stretching my ankle too much so I started messing about with the pedal faces, then it was a bit late, so I've left it in a few bits, so I need to sort that. I think I might also have to change the angle on my pedal tray as it was obviously set up for the old pedals too.

 

Then, the green and red 13 from the performance kit is too short for me (it makes harder and therefore shorter) so I think I want to switch those out too, but that means dismantling the back of the brake pedal so I may leave it and see if I get used to it.  It's immediately better feeling than the old one regardless. The pedal face is at an odd angle too so that'll need sorted too.

 

I wonder if the massive amount of adjustability is worse than none as it now means I'm actually thinking about all these angles etc!

 

I saw a thing on YouTube about the throttle pedal - you can shorten the throw quite a lot by adjusting some bolts but its not mentioned in any of the Fanatec manuals  I didnt realise the inverted had the damper kit, that would have made the difference worth the money!

 

Do you get the angle plate things? Im thinking of fitting them and maybe trying the other pedal faces to change the pedal angle as my wheel plate int as adjustable as most so hoping they will assist.

 

You are spot on about the adjustability tho, there is so much to change and lots of it is quite the effort - ive now got a full time socket set with the rig….

 

I had another 30 mins today on the new GT7 TT and having really dropped the braking force I’m getting on with them really well - I still want the pedal to be stiffer but keep the throw, probably an impossible combo. Did you keep the sponge bit with the red and green elastomers?

 

@spatular did you get your pedal yet?

[spatular]

^ oh yeah just arrived today, got some online rallying to do before changing it over, will report back with how it goes. it's been interesting reading how you guys are getting on with the new pedals