The James Bond Series

[Silent Runner]

The bit where he slow-speed rams the scuba-diver is amazing. In fact that whole 6 minutes is just great.

[Marlowe]

I caught most of Octopussy on ITV4 last night and was surprised how much I enjoyed it.  

 

Peak Moore silliness is a much better watch than the entirely unintentional silliness of dour Craig desperately trying to give the character depth in some self-indulgent mess of a plot. 

 

Bond has always been an absurd post-colonial fantasy, with the character fully expressing that in his stuffiness and amorality. The series desperately needs to embrace that and put out a 60s period film. Tarantino would be the best fit for it at this point. 

[Vimster]

Has that new one come out yet? It's been delayed and postponed that long it feels like it has been out ages already. I was very disappointed when Craig signed up for that especially after his thinly-veiled contempt for the role since Spectre. 

 

The series needs to find some middle ground between the silliness and the solidity. It needed to be reeled back after Die Another Day (although I quite enjoyed it for what it was), but it has gone the other way. Plus I'd like to think that 'dark' period of cinema has passed and we can get a bit silly again. 

 

Definitely lean into the fact he is a bit of a shit, use other character's resistance to his womanising and gung-ho attitude to create some drama, bring back the gadgets and megalomanial antagonists. Might be a difficult prospect in a world where the Kingsman films exist, but if they take themselves seriously enough not to be knowingly silly it could work. The Spy Who Loved Me felt like an attempt to bring Bond back to actual espionage, yet it does have some of the trademark Bond OTTness. 

 

Send Craig packing, end that chapter of the series, don't be embarrassed about the character's history, embrace Bond's flaws, bring back the fun but keep it serious enough it's not a self-parody.  

[Protocol Penguin]

I’m only half-joking when I state an opinion MGM should really do two parallel Bond series going forwards, a rompier, Moore-inspired self-aware Bond, and a dour, post-Bourne ‘gritty’ Bond.

[Vimster]

21 minutes ago, Protocol Penguin said:

I’m only half-joking when I state an opinion MGM should really do two parallel Bond series going forwards, a rompier, Moore-inspired self-aware Bond, and a dour, post-Bourne ‘gritty’ Bond.

Only if they can work towards a Doctor Who-style The Two Bonds mind-fuck of a blockbuster.

[Nick R]

17 minutes ago, Vimster said:

Only if they can work towards a Doctor Who-style The Two Bonds mind-fuck of a blockbuster.

 

Into the Spyverse

[Nick R]

Post-credits scene: Bond (either of them, but probably the gritty one) enters a dark office room. Senses something wrong, raises gun. A shadowy figure emerges into the light. We don't see his face, but Bond recognises him, and says...

 

Spoiler

"Jesus Christ, it's Jason Bourne."

 

[probotector]

I’ll be glad to see the end of the current series. I think it outstayed it’s welcome after it was clear that Casino Royale was another fluke thanks to the director just like Goldeneye 

[Monkeyboy]

They've forgotten (or more likely they're embarrassed) that they're genre flicks. The current Bond series is very confused as to what it wants to be.

[probotector]

I think it was skyfall where Bind was just a generic bodyguard with earpiece etc.

 

Utterly bland. 
 

Let’s not forget it was an Austin Powers remake with a dose of Home Alone.

[Steve McQueef]

3 hours ago, Marlowe said:

I caught most of Octopussy on ITV4 last night and was surprised how much I enjoyed it.  

 

Peak Moore silliness is a much better watch than the entirely unintentional silliness of dour Craig desperately trying to give the character depth in some self-indulgent mess of a plot. 

 

Bond has always been an absurd post-colonial fantasy, with the character fully expressing that in his stuffiness and amorality. The series desperately needs to embrace that and put out a 60s period film. Tarantino would be the best fit for it at this point. 

Octopussy slaps. We honestly didn't even mind A View To a Kill on our rewatch of Moore's movies, during the start of lockdown. 

 

They're terrible in many ways, cobbled together and barely holding at the seams, but fuck me if they're not fun.

[Plissken]

I wrote in another thread that Octopussy is regarded as one of the worst but there is stuff in there that is quite brilliant.  The fact that the ending had your actual people hanging off your actual plane to have a fight is the sort of thing that Bond was always a cut above for.  The problem is that it ends when Bond twangs an aerial in the other blokes face, which is the sort of thing that plagues the entire film - at no point do they resist going for the cheap gag or easy way out.

 

Admittedly, the gorilla checking his watch still makes me laugh though.

 

[Art Vandelay]

I'm sure I mentioned it in another Bond thread, but Moore in Octopussy huffing and puffing after that train whilst wearing a leather waistcoat and Cuban heels is the highlight of the series for me. There's so much wrong with that film but I absolutely love it. A complete product of its time.

[Festoon]

1 hour ago, Welrain said:

For me, the recent Mission Impossibles have bettered all of the DC Bonds as did the Man from Uncle and Atomic Blonde. A new bond will hopefully breath some life in back into the series,

 

Not a chance. They should've hired McQuarrie after MI: Rogue Nation.

They can't catch up.

[Festoon]

3 hours ago, Monkeyboy said:

They've forgotten (or more likely they're embarrassed) that they're genre flicks. The current Bond series is very confused as to what it wants to be.

 

It's just trying to be a four quadrant general action thriller but it's just not fun. And the thrills are non-existent compared to the MI series. McQuarrie and Cruise are just willing to go to incredible lengths to make thrilling action. The Bond series equivalent is reaching for the 100 vfx. It can't compete with literal madness.

[monkeydog]

3 hours ago, probotector said:

I’ll be glad to see the end of the current series. I think it outstayed it’s welcome after it was clear that Casino Royale was another fluke thanks to the director just like Goldeneye 

 

It's just so weird that you have Martin Campbell kicking off a couple of Bond runs with "I'll happily watch more of this series", only for subsequent films to be either garbage or boring. Or boring garbage. 

 

The producers clearly need some sort of slap.

 

[gizmo1990]

I sat through Octopussy too and enjoyed much of it, as usual. But there’s no doubt that, for me, it was the start of the knowing parody stuff going too far, which really turns me off. The hot air balloon extravaganza at the end is still painful to watch.

 

I really do think that the series needs a jolt after the grimness and charmlessness of Craig. A lightness of touch but with a hard edge where required. It’s easier said than done. But it can be done. For me, Goldeneye was the last to achieve it.

 

I’d really like to see Tarantino given the opportunity. It would be fascinating to see him get to play in that world and you know that he would put absolutely everything into it. He’s wanted it for so long and he’d totally fuck off this retirement bs for the chance of doing a Bond and laying down a marker.

[Hanzo the Razor]

6 minutes ago, gizmo1990 said:

I sat through Octopussy too and enjoyed much of it, as usual. But there’s no doubt that, for me, it was the start of the knowing parody stuff going too far, which really turns me off. The hot air balloon extravaganza at the end is still painful to watch.

 

I really do think that the series needs a jolt after the grimness and charmlessness of Craig. A lightness of touch but with a hard edge where required. It’s easier said than done. But it can be done. For me, Goldeneye was the last to achieve it.

 

I’d really like to see Tarantino given the opportunity. It would be fascinating to see him get to play in that world and you know that he would put absolutely everything into it. He’s wanted it for so long and he’d totally fuck off this retirement bs for the chance of doing a Bond and laying down a marker.

 

Didn't the Craig version of Casino Royale come about after Tarantino said he wanted to adapt the book as a 60s era Bond with Pierce Brosnan? Eon bought the rights to the book, fucked Brosnan into the bin and laughed all the way to the Swiss bank.

[gizmo1990]

9 hours ago, Hanzo the Razor said:

 

Didn't the Craig version of Casino Royale come about after Tarantino said he wanted to adapt the book as a 60s era Bond with Pierce Brosnan? Eon bought the rights to the book, fucked Brosnan into the bin and laughed all the way to the Swiss bank.

 

Yep, that's the story.

[Clipper]

10 hours ago, gizmo1990 said:

I sat through Octopussy too and enjoyed much of it, as usual. But there’s no doubt that, for me, it was the start of the knowing parody stuff going too far, which really turns me off. The hot air balloon extravaganza at the end is still painful to watch.

 

 

Did you see the double taking pigeon in MoonRaker

 

Octopussy is comfortably the worst Moore Bond film but is superior to every Daniel Craig Bond because it is fun whereas the modern bonds are dour lifeless shells comparitively. I know people bang on about Craig being more like "proper bond" like Connery's Bond but that only works if you never watched Connery Bond films. This idea that Bond films with Connery were serious spy/action/drama films is slightly punctured if you simply watch any of them. Most were fun, in some cases as fun as Moore's Bond films  - Goldfinger, You only Live Twice and Diamonds are forever are packed full of Bond fun silliness. Bond himself was a bit more serious than Moore's but the films were still fun.

 

Craig's Bond is just not fun and neither are the films. EON seem obsessed with the idea of making Bond serious when he never was (on film). When Craig's Bond does try to stray into humour it is just uncomfortable to watch.

 

The best "serious" Bond was Timothy Dalton. The films were still fun and he trod the tightrope quite well in trying to inject a bit of weight/seriousness into it.

 

The funniest attempt at serious Bond was Brosnan. I remember Goldeneye where all this mad stuff is going off and suddenly Bond has to sit on a beach and look a bit sad

[Plissken]

The problem with Craig is that he doesn't look like he's having fun doing it.  And that translates to the audience.  I mean, if you can't enjoy being James Bond, why the hell should the audience?

 

All the Bonds have been good, but with their own flaws.  Dalton can't do comedy.  Brosnan's debut was perfect but the subsequent scripts let him down very badly.   Speaking of scripts, the same writing team have been behind the last seven.  It needs freshening up.

 

They don't have to be silly.  They just have to be fun and try something cool.  I never tire of watching that Shanghai silhouette fight in Skyfall.

[Art Vandelay]

The baddies are generally a bit shite in the Craig ones too. The chief culprit was that jumped up civil servant in Spectre they pushed off a balcony. It was weird too how flamboyant they made Javier Bardem. I'm not sure that did anyone any favours.

[probotector]

Honestly, for me, Daniel Craig is the worst bond. I like Craig in other films though.

 

He doesn’t look like Bond, he pouts too much. 

 

We need Tom Hardy to save us.

[gizmo1990]

1 hour ago, Clipper said:

Did you see the double taking pigeon in MoonRaker

 

 

Haha, aye I'll give you that! 

 

Imo, the Bond films are like the ultimate example of the synergy of actor and script. And in all of Craig's films that's been the double whammy weak link. And yes I include Casino Royale in that, to a point at least. It's a decent entry, but imo that's mainly down to a reasonable script and outstanding co stars in Mikkelson and Green.

 

I'd agree that the one of the biggest hurdles to the franchise is the current writers, they are terrible imo.

[Jammy]

2 hours ago, Clipper said:

Did you see the double taking pigeon in MoonRaker

 

Octopussy is comfortably the worst Moore Bond film

Surely For Your Eyes Only is the worst Moore film. No gadgets, that parrot, a bad guy who looks like he should be singing in a 1970s US AOR band, and the extremely uncomfortable jailbait ice-skater scenes. “That’s détente, comrade” indeed.

 

Agree totally about Dalton - would have been happy for him to gave had a couple more films.

[gizmo1990]

WAT!? Topol munching pistachios.. Carole Bouquet.. the underwater scenes.. Julien Glover.. Carole Bouquet.. the pre title sequence.. Charles Dance.. the title song.. Carole Bouquet..

 

Actually, thinking about it some more, I could go on and on. For Your Eyes Only is absolutely briliiant for me, and I thought Moore was fantastic in it.

 

And I will go on! THAT cliff fall stunt. Absolutely amazing.

[Nick R]

18 hours ago, Monkeyboy said:

They've forgotten (or more likely they're embarrassed) that they're genre flicks. The current Bond series is very confused as to what it wants to be.

 

The Craig films continue the series' pattern of chasing or imitating a current trend, which can lead to wild fluctuations from one film to the next:

 

 

OHMSS vaguely has a swinging '60s thing going on.

 

Live and Let Die is blaxploitatoon.

 

Man With the Golden Gun has martial arts bits.

 

Moonraker is riding the coat-tails of Star Wars.

 

Licence to Kill is violent and less outlandish, like an '80s drug thriller.

 

Die Another Day has post-Matrix elements (speed ramping, that CG bullet in the gun barrel).

 

Casino Royale and Quantum of Solace are very post-Bourne (not just in action, but QOS's cold tower block ending is extremely similar to that of The Bourne Supremacy).

 

Skyfall is trying really really hard to be The Dark Knight.

 

SPECTRE is doing a Bond version of the MCU's long-running shared universe continuity by trying to tie all the Craig films together.

 

 

One of the few big action movie trends the Bond series has never followed was the '70s disaster movie.

[Clipper]

1 hour ago, Jammy said:

Surely For Your Eyes Only is the worst Moore film. No gadgets, that parrot, a bad guy who looks like he should be singing in a 1970s US AOR band, and the extremely uncomfortable jailbait ice-skater scenes. “That’s détente, comrade” indeed.

 

Agree totally about Dalton - would have been happy for him to gave had a couple more films.

It was weak (almost as weak as Octopussy) but it had Topol and underwater action scenes and "underwater" action scenes.

 

(the latter were amazing at the time - nice work by the in camera effects guys )

 

 

[Plissken]

1 hour ago, Jammy said:

Surely For Your Eyes Only is the worst Moore film. No gadgets, that parrot, a bad guy who looks like he should be singing in a 1970s US AOR band, and the extremely uncomfortable jailbait ice-skater scenes. “That’s détente, comrade” indeed.

 

The jailbait skater is the one with all the agency and Moore (looking every second of his 55 years) pushes her away.  It's uncomfortable because Bond is uncomfortable.

 

FYEO has a pretty coherent plot, plus a neat switcheroo that you don't find out who the bad guy is until three quarters of the way in.  And - this is very important and well pointed out by @gizmo1990- has Carole Bouquet.  For bad Moore films Octopussy is two separate plots with a single pointless joining scene.  And has various plot holes that show how half-arsed it was and cumulatively still annoy me three days after watching it.

[Commander Jameson]

1 hour ago, gizmo1990 said:

WAT!? Topol munching pistachios.. Carole Bouquet.. the underwater scenes.. Julien Glover.. Carole Bouquet.. the pre title sequence.. Charles Dance.. the title song.. Carole Bouquet..

 

Actually, thinking about it some more, I could go on and on. For Your Eyes Only is absolutely briliiant for me, and I thought Moore was fantastic in it.

 

And I will go on! THAT cliff fall stunt. Absolutely amazing.

 

🤗

 

I love the opening of Eyes. It might be the 80s kid in me, but I get goosebumps when the Bond has just got control of the helicopter back and Blofeld's cat squeals as the chopper comes into view over the rooftop. Then the funky Bond theme kicks into gear.

 

Wonderful.