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Football Thread 2011/2012

SMD

By SMD
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Hawkeye

Hawkeye

Posted
Posted

fan ownership was mooted before, and some fairly wealthy people said they'd help with the organisation, but it was decided against pursuing for now when the enormity of the tax bills came to light.

I think fan trust ownership is better as a new starting point in this scenario. Better to stick with the one member one vote as well, no matter how much money any single person puts in to the trust.

We're (the Bankies) completely fan owned these days. We may not have the cash to splash that some other clubs about us do, but we know are finances are in order and have progressed on the field with some great results along the way. For us out 'tax bill' as such is still getting our own stadium. We've pumped a lot of money into just getting that off the ground in terms of planning stuff, but the reality is there's a shocking amount of work left to be done and funds to be raised. It'll be great once we get there though. All off our own back too.

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Hawkeye

Hawkeye

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Yes. I don't see why all clubs shouldn't be owned by the fans. Not everything has to be about profit or even worse a rich man's plaything.

There are two ways of looking at it. It does limit what you have to spend. You can only spend what you raise, no fantasy football type stuff going on. A fair few fans, particularly of the larger/more successful clubs wouldn't enjoy that.

On the flip side, you know the club is safe. If you want x, y or z you know you need to be active and involved to raise the funds. When you do get the glory moments they feel more special as you know you had a real part in the club getting there. I saw grown men crying all over the place the day we won the Scottish Junior League Central Division 2 title in our first year back. The lowest league in junior football (Scottish version of semi-professional), but it felt like winning the Champions League. Taking the club back from the dead. The fund raising. Looking for a manager and trying to get players to come to us, to believe it wasn't pie in the sky. The people giving up free time to get an old run down ground ready for use. Building safe standing areas, re-roofing an old stand, working on the pitch to make it the best it could be, building dugouts

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Art Vandelay

Art Vandelay

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Yes. I don't see why all clubs shouldn't be owned by the fans. Not everything has to be about profit or even worse a rich man's plaything.

I think just in the interests of national heritage fans should own a controlling stake in every football club. It's absolute fantasy though as there's far too many cunts out there with too much to lose to ever let that happen. The influx of mega-money since Sky effectively took the reigns of top flight football in this country has been almost universally to the detriment of the game.

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Plissken

Plissken

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Is there anything blocking a new FC Rangers starting up and entering the lower English Leagues and applying for FA membership, ala AFC Wimbledon?

UEFA wouldn't allow it. The English FA and Premier League don't want them. The ENglish clubs most certainly don't want them. Oh, and I reckon the response of most English fans will be "get fucked".

Aside from that, they have a clear run.

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redbloodcell

redbloodcell

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I think just in the interests of national heritage fans should own a controlling stake in every football club.

Isn't this in place in the Bundesliga?

UEFA wouldn't allow it. The English FA and Premier League don't want them. The ENglish clubs most certainly don't want them. Oh, and I reckon the response of most English fans will be "get fucked".

Aside from that, they have a clear run.

Also what happens if Scotland do the whole Independence thing?

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Pat Mustard

Pat Mustard

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UEFA wouldn't allow it. The English FA and Premier League don't want them. The ENglish clubs most certainly don't want them. Oh, and I reckon the response of most English fans will be "get fucked".

Aside from that, they have a clear run.

I don't think UEFA would block it, it's up to the four leagues SPL, SFL, EPL, EFA according to UEFA's last statement on the mater back in 2009.

If they agreed then UEFA would then make a prgress that decision ensuring that the new leagues met the criteria for the europa/champions league

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/old_firm_moving_to_england_is_theoretically_possible_says_fifa_1_1361611

But no-one in England wants the old firm so it will never happen anyway, although it would be a masterstroke if Rangers ended up in in the lower leagues of english football instead of the lower leagues of Scottish football.

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Fry Crayola

Fry Crayola

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A newly-formed club based in Scotland wouldn't be allowed to play in the English pyramid system, surely?

It's theoretically possible - the new Methyr Town play in England despite being a Welsh club, although you can argue they have the weight of history on their side as they're basically a resurrection of Merthyr Tydfil.

EDIT: And even if we're talking about a club situated in England, I'm sure they can't be voted in any higher than where AFC Wimbledon started out.

They can and undoubtedly would. The FA take into account the size of the club applying to enter when determining where they would go. Any higher than the Conference though and you start having problems with the teams who'd have to be left out - in the lower leagues, there's usually enough voluntary/forced relegations or refused promotions to provide the gaps. From the fifth level up, clubs are eager to progress and usually only drop down if they're in serious trouble, as was the case with Halifax Town.

An expansion to accomodate them is theoretically possible, even if it means a 25 team division.

I don't see it happening though, or even if Rangers were to cease in their current form for a new club to start anywhere other than the SPL.

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Fry Crayola

Fry Crayola

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Isn't this in place in the Bundesliga?

Yes, and you can add my name to the list of people who think it's a good thing. There are exceptions, mainly around clubs like Bayer Leverkusen who are (I believe) 100% owned by the Bayer company, but that's owing to it being formed as a works team over 100 years ago. If they wanted to sell up, it'd have to go to the fans.

Red Bull bought a German club a few years ago, SSV Markranstaedt. Unlike their Austrian, US and Brazilian dealings, they couldn't have complete ownership and couldn't name the club in their usual stylings, so they own 49% of RB Leipzig.

The affordable ticket prices in the Budesliga are certainly not coincidental.

Also what happens if Scotland do the whole Independence thing?

Most clubs from independent states I can think of playing "away from home", as it were, have good reasons. The seven Liechtenstein clubs play in Switzerland because they have no domestic league, Derry City were basically forced out of Northern Ireland by violence, Monaco's own league is amateur so AS Monaco certainly aren't going to play there (well, maybe not for a while at this rate), and both San Marino and Andorra have sides in Italy and Spain respectively to help their growth.

The Scottish league is certainly strong enough that without disbanding it altogether, it's hard to argue for its clubs to join England.

In time there'll be a superleague for them anyway.

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Plissken

Plissken

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The Scottish league is certainly strong enough that without disbanding it altogether, it's hard to argue for its clubs to join England.

In time there'll be a superleague for them anyway.

Nah, any European Superleague place would be a dream even for Celtic and Rangers. I seem to recall some talk of a Dutch-Belgian-Scottish sort-of second tier affair, but TBH it would just end up like the Europa League is the Champions League.

To put things in perspective to how big the Old Firm really are, in 2009-10 Celtic had a turnover of £61m.

That 2009-10 turnover figure is £2m greater than Bolton, £5m greater than Blackburn, £2m less than Sunderland and £15m less than Everton.

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Dudley

Dudley

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Although isn't this the chance every old firm fan wants. Is there anything blocking a new FC Rangers starting up and entering the lower English Leagues and applying for FA membership, ala AFC Wimbledon?

I believe other than the obvious historical exceptions, what's stopping them doing it is that Glasgow isn't in England.

EDIT : Appears not to be true at least for Welsh sides. Interesting.

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Plissken

Plissken

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Far more fans? Bigger stadia? The fact thier turnovers are comparable despite getting a tiny fraction of the TV money?

Your criteria includes "having a big stadium"? So the second biggest club in Scotland is Queens Park? Darlington is as big a club as Bolton?

Being the biggest fish in a rapidly decreasing pond has skewed your perspective. Celtic couldn't even tempt the manager away from Burnley.

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csuzw

csuzw

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Your criteria includes "having a big stadium"? So the second biggest club in Scotland is Queens Park? Darlington is as big a club as Bolton?

Being the biggest fish in a rapidly decreasing pond has skewed your perspective. Celtic couldn't even tempt the manager away from Burnley.

Queen's Park are also 3rd on the list of Scottish Cup wins so they've won a few trophies too! (last 1 was 1893 :P)

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Rsdio

Rsdio

Posted
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Lee Clark has left Huddersfield. Leeds? Or Wolves?

Amazingly it seems he has been sacked. Thought they were doing ok?

Fucking hell, just got in and it's the first I've heard of it.

Getting sacked a few matches after a 43 match unbeaten run would be a fucking travesty. I hope that they've just parted company, rather than him being actually fired.

It looks that way to an outsider but for anyone close to the club this is less of a surprise. He's been here almost four years and has had unbelievable loyalty, faith and backing from our chairman considering he was a total rookie when he came, he's been given an unprecedented budget for us as a club (he's signed over FIFTY players in his time, many of them for decent fees and on big wages in League 1 terms) and despite all that we're no better off than when he arrived.

The unbeaten run was a fluke that essentially achieved nothing because it was built on a foundation of draws rather than wins. At the end of the run we were actually further away from the top of the league than when we started it. Don't get me wrong, the fans are proud of it but it's meaningless without a promotion.

He was fairly tactically inept when he arrived but we excused that as he was a young manager and he got us playing incredibly good football in his first full season. After getting bullied out of the playoffs by Millwall he threw his footballing philosophy out of the window and since then it's like he picks his teams and tactics out of a tombola and hopes for the best.. The net result: a team with completely different personnel from week to week that plays dreadful, incoherant football that's truly painful to watch despite a squad that, on paper, appears to be filled with talent. Our home games are horrible experiences these days.

I could go on, talk about his hissy fits with the media, appalling man-management skills and whatnot but I won't bore anyone any more. Suffice to say that sometimes league position doesn't tell anywhere near the whole story and even if it did then that story would be 'playoffs again if we're lucky' which simply isn't good enough considering the time and backing he's had.

I'll miss him ranting like an absolute psycho on the touchline though.

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George Clooney

George Clooney

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Your criteria includes "having a big stadium"? So the second biggest club in Scotland is Queens Park? Darlington is as big a club as Bolton?

Being the biggest fish in a rapidly decreasing pond has skewed your perspective. Celtic couldn't even tempt the manager away from Burnley.

I think it does for some people though. Some people would still class Leeds and Sheffield Wednesday as "big clubs", partly due to history and partly due to the support/stadium size. I think Leeds were still getting bigger crowds than most teams in the Championship and some in the prem when they were in League 1. To some people being a big club refers more to image than how successful they are. I know people that said Blackburn werent a big club compared to Newcastle, this was when Blackburn had just won the title as well, and I think Newcastle may have been in the second tier of football at that point.

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Blooming Marvellous

Blooming Marvellous

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everton?

Your criteria includes "having a big stadium"? So the second biggest club in Scotland is Queens Park? Darlington is as big a club as Bolton?

Being the biggest fish in a rapidly decreasing pond has skewed your perspective. Celtic couldn't even tempt the manager away from Burnley.

OK, just far more fans then. That's what makes them bigger clubs.

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Dudley

Dudley

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And post 2 gets it, Wigan are on their 7th year of their first stint in the top flight.

Everton have been relegated twice before.

Swansea famously went from the 4th division to leading the 1st division in December to back in the 4th division in 8 years in the 70s and 80s.

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