The Valve Thread

[NecroMorrius]

Not sure about that, most people will still play it with mouse and keys I imagine. But you never know!

[NEG]

Worst. Controller. Ever

[Thwomp]

If you split the touchpad up into segments for different buttons, how will you know which segment you're pressing without the physical feeling of a button there?

[Smitty]

If you split the touchpad up into segments for different buttons, how will you know which segment you're pressing without the physical feeling of a button there?

A few things including the feedback you get, simply remembering your config and using the pad display. Firstly the sections could be delineated by having little haptic bounding boxes around the area in question ie you'd get a little texture gradient or buzz when you were leaving it. Now this idea bothers some because technically just sliding your finger along the surface of a pad (which is why there's this OTT sceptical reaction), something is usually a one way process which gives no tactile feedback, but the haptic feedback here makes it (from the sounds of it) feel as if you're really pushing/moving something, a ghostly equivalent to sliding a mouse or delicately pushing a stick with the attendant subtle sensations that constitute feedback.

Also I don't think it's beyond people to remember what section of the pad is assigned to what without visible markers (as on buttons); people will quickly be able to memorise button placement if they choose such a configuration. You could display the config on the screen in the middle as well.

So let's say you're playing Street Fighter 4 - one side could become a d-pad and the other a 'classic' 4 button face and you could either remember the arrangement or show it on the screen in the middle. Either way people would quickly adapt. With that particular example it would be most intuitive to assign the d-pad to the left and the 4 button face to the right, mimicking the configuration of classic pads. Muscle memory would do the rest, even discounting the display element.

I mean, I could play Halo's default controller configuration from memory even if the buttons were blank. Once you know which button is which it's not very hard, is it?

[DocG]

Also I don't think it's beyond people to remember what section of the pad is assigned to what without visible markers (as on buttons); people will quickly be able to memorise button placement if they choose such a configuration. You could display the config on the screen in the middle as well.

Indeed. I suppose the logical question to ask here is: how often, when playing on a 360 pad and moving your thumb from A to X, does your thumb come down exactly on top of the X button? I think for me it's most of the time. I don't need the physicality of the button edges to remember where it is, it's muscle memory. Similarly, I type pretty fast on my iPhone and iPad, without button edges to guide me. The Valve controller can be learned the same way. Now, whether the lack of buttons makes it harder to learn -- that's interesting question. But your idea of the haptics communicating button edges is an interesting one and not outside the bounds of the technology I think.

[Smitty]

If they can have the surface give the feedback of a nodule then when you slam your thumb down on the spot you would feel the outlines of the nodule and no whether you were hitting it or not. If you missed and went next to it you wouldn't feel that or you would feel it on the edge of thumb rather than the centre. Either way you know you're not hitting the 'button'.

[Smitty]

Then again it's not really clear how far Valve are taking the haptic element.

Will it be something similiar to this?

Yes, those are all textured, on a glass screen.

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2012/mar/07/ipad-3-touch-senseg-haptic

Back to Valve's press release:

"This haptic capability provides a vital channel of information to the player--delivering in-game information about speed, boundaries, thresholds, textures, action confirmations, or any other events about which game designers want players to be aware," the company added. "It is a higher-bandwidth haptic information channel than exists in any other consumer product that we know of. As a parlour trick they can even play audio waveforms and function as speakers."

I guess the question is how refined is it? Would the textures be comparable to the above? I think it's undoubtedly exciting, though.

[Alex W.]

I don't doubt that Valve are up to that sort of level. I am super hyped about this an really disappointed that the next gen consoles that has the chance to make this kind of change, didn't.

[Massive Invisible Dog]

Nah they tried it and didn't like it much. Thankfully. Motion control was always a faddy pain the arse. Now the true innovation can begin!

I'm not so sure, I had a wii remote working as a mouse replacement on my PC for a while and it was pretty great. Certainly close to the speed and accuracy of a mouse than any trackpad I've used.

It stopped working not long after though, something happened with my Bluetooth drivers. I thought Hydra might make a good replacement, but it looks a bit crap as a pointer. Too big.

[simms]

Sorry if already posted but devs give their hands on impressions:

http://www.engadget.com/2013/09/28/steam-controller-dev-reactions/

John Clark, Sega VP PC Digital (US / Europe):

Initially very sensitive, however, you settle quickly and the track pads do feel great. Remembering, it's a prototype and the purpose of the beta is for the developers to experiment. We're really looking forward to seeing how it fares with PC RTS titles which are traditionally mouse and keyboard. We're excited to see the results!

James Schall, Sega Director Digital Distribution (US / Europe):

First impression: great to handle the beta controller, the touch pads are incredibly responsive and I would imagine that once used to it, it could deliver higher performance for the gamer.

Ichiro Lambe, Dejobaan Games president:

On how it feels: It feels comfortable, yet different from anything I've used before. They did a really good job of simulating physical controls through the haptic feedback -- ideally, this means that the controller will morph into whatever you need it to based on how you program it.

Benefit as a game developer / Major differences from other controllers / Its greatest strength: We primarily develop our games for mouse and keyboard, and when we think about adding gamepad support, it's a matter of mitigating loss of control. For instance, WASD+mouselook excels over a traditional gamepad for precise camera control or when navigating complex user interfaces. The Steam Controller largely does away with a gamepad's weaknesses there.

Within five minutes of picking it up, I went from newbie to controlling an FPS camera better than I'd ever done with a gamepad.

On ease of development: Dunno yet! Most of what Valve creates (Steamworks API) is pretty developer friendly, so I don't see why this would be any different. Having worked with haptic feedback before (with the Novint Falcon some years ago), I think there'll probably be some learning curve there as developers experiment to find what (literally) feels right.

What'd you see at Valve: They had a few units out for our visit (an earlier one was 3D printed and therefore cruder than what we played with), but the then-latest device was close to what we see in the announcement images (save for the touchscreen, which was four physical buttons). We spoke to one of Valve's engineers, who said that they'd tried a number of different forms, some of which had the player's hands at unusual orientations.

The Steam Controller's weakness: I think analog sticks are better at defining boundaries -- for instance, I can mash a stick forward as far as I physically can, and I know I'm going to walk forward as quickly as I can. I just can't push it forward any further. The trackpads require more finesse; my thumbs will have to learn where to stop.

[JohnC]

A Wiimote as a mouse replacement sounds like it would be a pain in the arse for anything other then short periods.

[Massive Invisible Dog]

A Wiimote as a mouse replacement sounds like it would be a pain in the arse for anything other then short periods.

Never played a Wii game which used it as a pointer for long periods? It's fine. You just have it resting on something and all it takes to do anything is really small wrist movements. I can't imagine anyone finding it more uncomfortable than constantly moving a mouse around.

[simms]

The Steam Controller's weakness: I think analog sticks are better at defining boundaries -- for instance, I can mash a stick forward as far as I physically can, and I know I'm going to walk forward as quickly as I can. I just can't push it forward any further. The trackpads require more finesse; my thumbs will have to learn where to stop.

I don't get Ichiro Lambe's above comment and maybe I'm missing something but would the boundary of how far you go on the trackpad if it was simulating an analogue stick would be to the edge of the trackpad itself, which you would feel?

[revlob]

Yeah I was just wondering that. The trackpads are not infinite in area. Could just be a feedback thing, thumbs trained for analogue sticks expect a certain resistance when the sticks have been pushed to their limit. I wonder if using the haptic features you could communicate a similar sensation, or at least a comparable one.

[revlob]

I do wonder how easy it'll be for Valve to sell the haptic feedback, it sounds like one of those features impossible to describe without experiencing it in person. A bit like the 3D features of the 3DS.

[Shook]

"Within five minutes of picking it up, I went from newbie to controlling an FPS camera better than I'd ever done with a gamepad."

Promising.

[Alex W.]

Kind of hoping someone will release a PS4 adaptor box for that. I can't wait a whole generation for Sony to rip off the concept.

[simms]

Without the software to enable customisation and also share configurations just an adaptor would severely limit its functionality.

[James Lyon]

I want to try playing Dota 2 on this thing.

[Goose]

Have they announced any sort of time line? I know there's mention of the Steam box going out before 2014 to beta testers (I think) but is there any information about the controller?

Does it seem odd to have gone so long, and then make three announcements in one week, that won't come to fruition for maybe a year, if not longer? Then again, it'd be no different to a console being announced at one E3 and not seeing release until the next one.

I must admit, I'm still a bit disappointed that Half Life 3 now seems to be well down the list of projects (or is it?). It felt like - Episode 3 in limbo....then they moved to Portal 2. Got that out the door, HL3 or Episode 3 next, but no, they switched to DOTA2. Now with that out the door, it feels like they've now moved on to SteamOS/box/controller, and HL3 is once again pushed to the side. I think I'm starting to get to the point whereby if they said "Look, we can't follow up what we've done with the Half Life universe, so we're going to leave things as they ended", I'd be ok with that.

[b00dles]

Time frame? Valve?

[Alex W.]

Without the software to enable customisation and also share configurations just an adaptor would severely limit its functionality.

It'd need to be a fancy configurable box like those ridiculous Xbox mouse and keyboard adaptors for FPSes.

[Shook]

I must admit, I'm still a bit disappointed that Half Life 3 now seems to be well down the list of projects (or is it?). It felt like - Episode 3 in limbo....then they moved to Portal 2. Got that out the door, HL3 or Episode 3 next, but no, they switched to DOTA2. Now with that out the door, it feels like they've now moved on to SteamOS/box/controller, and HL3 is once again pushed to the side. I think I'm starting to get to the point whereby if they said "Look, we can't follow up what we've done with the Half Life universe, so we're going to leave things as they ended", I'd be ok with that.

I wouldn't. I'm not after closure apart from what is actually required for the story.

You're right to suggest that it is not a priority for Valve though. That is clear.

[Jack]

A Wiimote as a mouse replacement sounds like it would be a pain in the arse for anything other then short periods.

It's actually alright, like MID says you can just rest the remote in your lap and point from there with small side-to-side motions. You're not going to do super precise StarCraft-style hundreds of actions per minute or anything, but it does work really well for the games that use it. It's the best way to control Pikmin 3.

[JohnC]

It's actually alright, like MID says you can just rest the remote in your lap and point from there with small side-to-side motions. You're not going to do super precise StarCraft-style hundreds of actions per minute or anything, but it does work really well for the games that use it. It's the best way to control Pikmin 3.

But as a mouse replacement on a PC? Isn't it going to need the sensor bar somewhere in front of it? Unless you're sitting as far away from your monitor as you would a TV, it sounds a bit awkward.

[Massive Invisible Dog]

Of course not as a mouse replacement for a PC. We're talking about the problem of controlling games which require mouse control from a sofa where mice are less than ideal. Valve have gone with trackpads as a solutions, which should be fine, but I'm skeptical that that will work as well as a pointing device would based on how we'll they've worked when used for that in games that use them in that way,

[JohnC]

Sorry, I thought you were talking about a mouse replacement on a PC when you said.

I'm not so sure, I had a wii remote working as a mouse replacement on my PC for a while and it was pretty great. Certainly close to the speed and accuracy of a mouse than any trackpad I've used.
It stopped working not long after though, something happened with my Bluetooth drivers. I thought Hydra might make a good replacement, but it looks a bit crap as a pointer. Too big.

[Massive Invisible Dog]

Yeah, sorry - on a PC, but not at a desk in front of a monitor. On a TV sitting on the sofa.

[Opinionated Ham Scarecrow]

Apologies if a shit post...

[Simmy]

Awful. Just fucking awful!