The Valve Thread

[Camel]

OK then, if fingers are fine for jumping in platform games, can someone point me to some examples of some that have jumping on a shoulder button as default?

Arcade buttons are designed for fingers. How wrong they got it for all those years.

[ZOK]

This thing would be really really good for twinstick shooters and games like Hotline miami where you twist around like that

SOLD! Unless it's really expensive, which it probably is. Morris, you can lend me one

[Not Thread Owner]

Putting jump on the shoulder button would free up the face buttons for all sorts of uses. If it was exactly the same then at least one game would have tried it. Can you name one?

Someone already did - Mirror's Edge.

[Alex W.]

Geometry Wars is going to be so, so good with that pad.

[Bojangle]

Someone already did - Mirror's Edge.

That's not included. Comrade moved the goalposts.

[Smitty]

Geometry Wars is going to be so, so good with that pad.

I'm concerned about balancing issues (the Wii Effect) and of course upsetting scores earned on legacy controllers.

[Wiper]

That's not included. Comrade moved the goalposts.

Of course he did, otherwise his argument would fail. I mean, why would a first-person platformer be a fair comparison for a discussion started based on the mapping of controls for a, er, first-person-(puzzle)platformer?

[Bojangle]

And as good as movement might be in Hotline Miami with the track pads, just how would you handle needing to use your less sensitive fingers on the shoulder buttons to pick up baseball bats and bash people's skulls in? It'd be awful.

[Comrade]

- Massive Fry looking sceptical image -

Here's what I last said before that about the trackpads:

I guess we'll have to wait until someone actually gets their hands on the pad before we know if those trackpads have anything near parity with thumbsticks. Suffice to say, I'm sceptical. But either way, the button layout on that pad is simply insane. It's almost Jaguar-bad.

Everything else since has been about the button placement.

[Massive Invisible Dog]

I wish Comrade's brain was as sensitive and active as his thumbs.

[jonathanhoey]

I think it's a shame that they didn't save the announcement until the thing's ready to buy. Actually, even waiting until they'd finished it would have been good.

How will the beta controller differ from the one that’s for sale next year?

There are a couple important differences: the first 300 or so beta units won’t include a touch screen, and they won’t be wireless. Instead, they’ll have four buttons in place of the touch screen, and they’ll require a USB cable.

I think we won't really know if it's a success until (a) we get to use one with our own hands, and (b) games start coming out that actually require it. If someone makes a killer app that is genuinely unplayable with a 360 pad but is brilliant with one of these, then Valve's vision is totally vindicated.

It's a bit like remakes of classic films. The new Robocop doesn't look like it's going to be all that, but it's not like we can't keep watching the Verhoeven one. If it turns out that a game's fine on a 360 pad but rubbish on one of these, let's just keep using our 360 pads for that game.

[TheSlugFormerlyKnownAsNap]

I don't see why jumping with a shoulder button would be problematic. It's the touchpads themselves that worry me. I bloody hate touch controls. But maybe the haptic stuff works. Still, based on the pictures and press release I'm out. Maybe I'll change my mind if I had the chance to actually try it out.

[Camel]

I must say I do agree with Comrade in so far as it does *look* awful. But you know, it might not be and nobody knows for sure until they've tried one.

[strider]

So will this finally allow me to play Dragon Age on PC without all my fucking fingers dying because I can't handle the mouse and keyboard controls? If so I'm in like Flynn.

[Treble]

Will m&k zealots take to this? I don't use that input any more, but remember that the accuracy wasn't just about the dpi; it was about how accurately you could articulate that movement using both your wrist and your fingers.

I'm excited about the pad, but that's because I want m&k games playable on the sofa. Not sure FPS obsessives will swap mouse for thumb.

[Comrade]

Leaving jump on the face button also leaves all of the shoulder buttons free for all sorts of uses. There's no benefit in moving it from the face button to a shoulder button in that scenario. Also - which platformer are we talking about that needs all of these buttons?

Well, just off the top of my head I think Mario 64, and Galaxy all used all the buttons. Are you saying no platformers used all the buttons on the pad? Plenty of platform games have messed with controls - just think of all the old NES games that weirdly put jump on the B button. All I'm asking is for one 2D or third-person 3D platformer that put it on the shoulder buttons. Just one.

[DocG]

People do realise that the Portal 2 one is just an example and everything can be remapped don't they?

There's no time to be readin' things, there's criticising to be done! The Internet Outrage Bandwagon is leaving and you don't wanna miss it!

[Comrade]

Of course he did, otherwise his argument would fail. I mean, why would a first-person platformer be a fair comparison for a discussion started based on the mapping of controls for a, er, first-person-puzzle-platformer?

I don't think Portal 2 is a platformer. So I was never comparing anything to it.

[RubberJohnny]

If it gets devs supporting controllers more often, even if its not this controller, then it's cool.

I don't really have a problem playing with controllers, in fact with third person action games I prefer it, but it's annoying when the PC version of something multiplatform strips out controller support. Double Fine are terrible for this.

[NecroMorrius]

Bioware too.

[Bojangle]

I don't really have a problem playing with controllers, in fact with third person action games I prefer it, but it's annoying when the PC version of something multiplatform strips out controller support. Double Fine are terrible for this.

Yeah, fuck those guys for adding 360 pad support to Psychonauts.

[RubberJohnny]

Yeah, fuck those guys for adding 360 pad support to Psychonauts.

Haven't tried the HD version of that, but I was thinking of Stacking and Costume Quest.

[Bojangle]

Haven't tried the HD version of that, but I was thinking of Stacking and Costume Quest.

Haven't played those to be fair. But yeah, that does seem weird considering they were awesome enough to go back to add achievements, 360 pad support (and button prompts in game) to the super old Psychonauts.

[jonathanhoey]

Will m&k zealots take to this? I don't use that input any more, but remember that the accuracy wasn't just about the dpi; it was about how accurately you could articulate that movement using both your wrist and your fingers.

I'm excited about the pad, but that's because I want m&k games playable on the sofa. Not sure FPS obsessives will swap mouse for thumb.

It's easy, all you need is a plank of wood.

[Mallet]

Was there not something in the press release about it already being compatible with every game in the Steam library?

[NecroMorrius]

Yeah because they fooled it into thinking it was a keyboard.

[Massive Invisible Dog]

Well, just off the top of my head I think Mario 64, and Galaxy all used all the buttons. Are you saying no platformers used all the buttons on the pad? Plenty of platform games have messed with controls - just think of all the old NES games that weirdly put jump on the B button. All I'm asking is for one 2D or third-person 3D platformer that put it on the shoulder buttons. Just one.

It's amazing that you think the lack of games which use a shoulder button as jump somehow proves your point. They would do it if there was a benefit to it - why would they make a change from the accepted standard when there's no benefit in doing so?

Would you also say that no game has ever used the shoulder buttons for anything where precision control is as critical as it is with the jump button in Mario? Would an FPS be better if firing was controlled by your thumb and not your finger? Why do most people never use their thumb when playing fighting games on an arcade stick when their thumb is apparently more active and sensitive?

[TehStu]

You're completely missing [...]

I'm astonished, given how well he read Wednesday's announcement before poopooing it.

[NecroMorrius]

Better for hitchhiking though

[ZOK]

Can I be the first to suggest that there is no point speculating about whether this will or won't be any good until we've had the chance to try one?