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Ultra Street Fighter IV

JLM

By JLM
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Qazimod

Qazimod

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Imp/Haggar, you're playing later today, right?

Quite keen to see the outcome of this, although that might have something to do with me being up against whoever gets sent to losers. :(

I'll either end up in a match I can't win or a match I can't connect to. :P

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joffocakes

joffocakes

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I'm going to make an effort to learn some decent safe jumps and option selects with Dan tomorrow. i'm fare much better against Rose players if I had a safe jump HK with an OS Ultra 1 in there to beat backdash or wakeup EX Soul Spiral. Probably still get punished if they manage an EX Soul Throw escape? Oh no.

I did see that Dan has something approaching an unblockable after his back throw, using a step back then jumping forward HK. It's an ambiguous crossup at worst but apparently beats all of Rufus' wakeup options.

I hate who I've become.

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joffocakes

joffocakes

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I'd play HDR as well, even though I'm not terribly good at it. Though back when I played it the 360 dpad was hopeless for it compared to SFIV and I was useless at using an arcade stick (to be honest, I still cannot do quarter circle ultra inputs facing right on the stick :( ).

I got the impression HDR wasn't received too well since it's always good old SSFIIT on streams; were the balance patches too much? Because the lack of a whiff animation for Honda and Hawk's command throws is wild. I guess there's no point mixing things up so much about 10 years too late.

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Lyrical Donut

Lyrical Donut

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I got the impression HDR wasn't received too well since it's always good old SSFIIT on streams; were the balance patches too much? Because the lack of a whiff animation for Honda and Hawk's command throws is wild. I guess there's no point mixing things up so much about 10 years too late.

Sirlin's twiddling broke a few things too. Akuma in particular, hilariously. Classic mode is still ST though, with horrible art.

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joffocakes

joffocakes

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Yeah, I was kinda saddenned that the classic mode didn't look exactly like the old games; I wish they'd patch in the old backgrounds or something. And it made the sprites pretty blurry. I didn't really mind the new art in stills, but when it's animated with the same number of frames as the old games it just looks completely bizarre.

I would also like a bit of a breakdown of what changed and what broke. I like reading things like that instead of getting on with my job.

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Plopboy

Plopboy

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I was going to make a new thread but I'll just add it here. I've been playing HDR for a while now (when no one's playing Classic that is, as I still prefer ST). Certain things in life are just hard to touch, like ST, or that classic Whitney Houston song. Unless your name is Jessica Sanchez or Hollie.

Good points about the game would include how transparent the development of changes and features was progressing- esp. compared to most games or most fighting games with lots of detail about what was in the works leading up to release. For hardcore players in the know (that Sirlin was working on this pre-release), I think he did more than a fair job of reading community's comments and I'd give him the benefit of the doubt for taking it into consideration, to whatever extent. That's not to say that it was all used, however there was likely a ton of input and at some point he probably had to say, ok I hear what you're saying, but I think THIS is the way it should be/I'm doing it the way I see fit. He had stated more than once the importance of testing it thoroughly (which actually still turned out to be not enough, or possibly not done quite well enough eg Akuma). Also, I think he made it quite clear that even slight tweaks to the properties of one character's move or jump arc/whatever could have drastic consequences in gameplay. Because he seemed to understand this so well, I also wonder why he made some decisions to the extent that he did in rebalancing so much, e.g. Zangief.

It is useful to play a close enough experience to ST on a modern console via Classic mode. I don't even use new graphics, I have mine set to Classic so the backgrounds and no shadows for characters are there but the biggest distinction is the speed difference in either. Even the DreamCast's ST port didn't get the gameplay speed perfect though. The new art looked alright I guess- a bit big/chunky compared to old, but I am more interested in reconstructing the original flow, so nice to have that option. Including hitboxes in the training mode is noteworthy.

As a "remix", it has often not been so clear for us to even distinguish HDR from ST as our game of choice. Instead of presenting the community with more options, the game of HDR itself wound up being too similar to stand on its own from ST amongst us at tournaments etc. and this split us on more than one occasion. Many of us would show up to play either, yet there was still lingering doubts afterward and feelings of inauthenticity-- kind of like, if you went to Burger King, and you expect to be able to order a Whopper Your Way, but they don't exactly serve you a Whopper Your Way, ya know? HDR wasn't designed from the ground up as a new game, so much as it was taken outright from another and so wasn't unique enough to stand on its own. Also by intent, it was made to be more approachable to new players. On paper this made sense, however I think in the actual implementation, wound up doing a disservice because it went a little too far. Tiger Knee motions were harder to do before, and yeah Zangief has some accident-prone moves if you're not careful, but there are also good reasons for those things and the ST crowd got pretty used to those over the years. The ultimate question is, did it wind up attracting and retaining many new players? How many of HDR players for the most part played/stuck around because of the easier inputs, I wonder? Some but I don't think that many when it's all said and done.

BALANCE

Moving into my criticisms of balance, Zangief stands out as the worst example. He went from near the bottom to the top. Similarly for Fei Long. Both characters got several buffs that "over-" balanced them. Zangief is all about getting in to SPD, but all his approaches are improved to the point where he is quite dangerous and I feel the best tactic gets myself cornered pretty quickly. It's funny though, I used to play like low hard kicks were my secret weapon, but lately I've been beating Zangief players by doing like 5 to 6 low roundhouse sweeps in a row per round-- ie it's so good I don't think people want to stop using it. The SPD motions don't require up?? The hop/less recovery on green hand can be scary too, though not quite as much as the lariats on startup. It's just no where near as difficult for him to get in to spd anymore. Fei doesn't need to juggle flame kick after chicken wings. The little tweaks add up.

The best rebalancing is probably Chun Li. She had a lot of cheap stuff in ST and it was good to see her upkicks toned down so much- and her new stuff looked really creative, like (ST) Blanka, just new stuff to mess around with.

Blanka's remixing seems a little too good, though not nearly as good as Zangief/Fei. Less recovery ok, but also faster 'lectricity? After playing Mithos I bet some good players could go to town with him. Oh and the whole thing about charging his meter by hopping back at fullscreen away from opponent- like THAT was ever a problem in ST??

Sagat is not so bad, though I still hate the juggling knee, AND it's now a DP motion I think?. Just one of the changes would probably have been fine, but why both.

Ryu doesn't need a fake fb. I get this by accident all the damn time- it even comes out as negative edge. You want a fake fireball? Standing strong. That's your fake fireball. If the opponent crosses me up esp. lag it may come out when I meant tatsu/spin kick. It came out when I tried to tick throw.

DeeJay's Machine Gun Upper and Honda's jab headbutt beating fireballs? That's just strange- makes little to no sense at all for DeeJay who has like, so many other options in general anyway, yet understandable for Honda but projectile players can catch on quickly enough. Seems out of character though for each.

I'd comment more about the other characters, but to be honest I wonder if I have been challenged enough to really get a good sense.

Akuma is broken of course, however I suspect what makes it so bad from the games I've played was simply Akuma _in_lag_. As for ST Akuma, the angle on his air fb (from what I remember) seems to be a little easier to penetrate with ground fireballs (if you are playing as ryu for example) but of course, both overpowered.

BUGS/POLISH

-crashes/freezes quite frequently for an approved title, requiring restarting console

-Damage quirks- occasionally moves take off little to nothing (in a zang mirror match, bunch of ppl on Live saw this, SPD took off like 5 pixels, stuff like that)

-menus a little inconsistent eg to refresh lobbies/rooms list. I like the Beacons in XBL's new updates to deal with that to at least let friends know I'm there

-cannot QUIT the game too easily- e.g. can't quit between rounds; corollary to that is, CAN quit during rounds

-Help screens for the moves are only available when you are expected to be playing (you can spectate and hope someone chooses your character but....)

-gamertag avatar often mixed up with others' in lobby

-tournament mode unfortunately turned out to be useless

-problems in Ranked matches (buggy or possibly manipulative leaderboards, incorrectly awards wins/losses)

XSPR (that's not a bug, that's just me signing off... unless you have a problem with the best player)

I like topics like this a lot. I love this game and i like to discuss anything about it. I wonder why we never see the top players discussing this kind of stuff? Is they too "og" (lol) that they cant comment on what would make the game better because this gives them a scrub mentality?

Anyway,i didnt played much HDR since i dont own a modern console (the last one i bought was a ps1 10 years ago), but i think i know enough about the engine and general balance of this game so ill leave my comments (but other than the gief related comments, i think ill say some retarded shit, since i dont play HDR for years so i may have wrong memories)

Zangief: I dont agree that he is top tier in HDR, if he didnt had the simplified SPD motion he would still be a underused character. The new green hand is a welcome buff against guile and dhalsim, but when sirlin decided to tweak it he didnt noticed that the quantity of time you advance with that move is exactly the same if you walks, this is a key detail because it doesnt gives gief a locomotion buff. HDR green hand had a 4 frames smaller recovery but the same locomotion, that was a bit too good in my opinion. I would make it this way: jab is like hdr but covers less ground (worse by exactly the quantity you walk during 4 frames), strong advances the same as it is in ST, and fierce has better locomotion but added recovery. One of the uses i had in my mind for the fierce GH's covering more ground is to punish blocked Cammys DP's (which if i tweaked this game, they would not been changed from how they are in ST). Different damages and maybe a make the fierce version a 2 hit could be tested as well.

As for his lariats, i think the changes are lame, the biggest mistakes on the HDR gief design are for sure the lariat changes and the new SPD motion, restore these and HDR gief is legit. I would change only 1 thing about his lariats: make his head hitbox 1 pixel smaller to beat hondas Heabutts cleanly.

I like his new hop, i sincerely think the ones in ST are just shit, maybe they didnt needed to be that good, but buffing his hop is like a must change IMO. In HDR Its just a bit unfair against ryu, but its nothing worse than a 6 - 4 mu imo. It helps agaisnt guile,chun,list goes on. it helps more on shitty mus than on good ones so i think it was a good decision by sirlin.

I like the normals changes, imo are one of the most smart changes, i would change some other normals as well to deal with some other shitty situations, but nothing too radical of course.

One thing that i would do for sure is make all Suplex versions have the Rh range, and make his super have that range as well, his super range being so shitty is a mistake by capcom.

I would also remove his strong aerial headbutt (since its useless) and make the fierce one like in the jap version of St, which dizzies instantly.

T.Hawk: the biggest mistake from sirlin, for sure. I second everything DSP said. If i would tweak T.Hawk, i would make it a O.Thawk with super, and only 1 additional change: make his diagonal jump RH hit very low, so you can beat Dics low kicks from far. T.hawk would be a solid mid tier in the hands of a dedicated player if he were like that. he would still be underused since he requires excellent execution.

Bison: People complain too much about his new DR. Imo i think its fine, but just like giefs GH, if sirlin had more knowledge about the engine, he could have done it better. IMO it would be better this way: Jab DR is like in HDR but gives almost no super meter.Strong DR would have invulnerability only to "red htiboxes", so he could still be thrown during startup (I didnt tested this but i assume DR is invulnerable to throws right?), and it would give like half of the meter it gives. Fierce would be like in ST but give like 2 px more meter. I think this would make it a more interesting design because: when bison is in the corner and with no meter, he is fucked. He got a new move that helps him get out of that situation, but is nowhere good like his super, so having his super is still better. In HDR he can attempt to escape and at the same time build meter for super... in my opinion i think this is wrong. If he is trapped, he can gamble with DR to escape, but with less super meter just to make him think about what he is doing, otherwise reversal DR is like always a good option. Fierce DR giving more super meter is just to reward the one button reversal.

His new Standing Jab is a bit too good, only the horizontal priority should have been buffed (to beat Honda headbuts and etc), but his vertical priority was buffed as well which made it a chunli like anti air, I dislike it. His new neutral jump strong is retarded, i would remove that. Im neutral about his command slide.

Ken: I agree with DSP as well. I would restore his knee bash range though. Ken is for sure one of the best rebalances done by sirlin.

Blanka: Another sucessfull balance. I would estore the electricity button presses to how it is in ST and remove the double damage thing in his rolls and i think its very good. Maybe make his Low rh with more respectable priority (better vertical priority which low strongs wouldnt be able beat it anymore, but with the same horizontal priority).

Ryu: I would only change one thing from how he is from ST: i would make his j.Strong (aka stevetren special,LOL) a little worse. I think it has just too much range and priority for a attack with such damage potential and ground cover(since you can corner an opponent very easily with it). It would be nothing too radical, if i changed it it would still beat stuff like T.Hawks air jab and stuff like that, if you look at the hitboxes you will notice that its a bit retarded. I would remove his fake fireball, imo it makes HDR ryu a retarded character.

Guile: I like his overhead, i would keep that. I would make his super cover a lot more ground though, i would make it an actually good super or atleast useful like ken's or deejay's. HDR's rh flash kick looks very weird and i would restore that, maybe only give it some more range in comparison to how it is in ST, but nothing too radical like it is in HDR. Also i would change the input for his knee attack so you can charge for booms and use the st.Short.

Fei & CAmmy: I dont play them and i dont face them enough so i cant comment on them. I do think that cammy really needed great buffs though. I would make the CW style motion as a yoga flame motion, same quantity of directions (so you will not be able to execute the move faster than in ST, but would not be a hard move to do). Up left and up right diagonals in special moves are retarded.

Deejay: I dunno about this character man, i think he is very solid as he is in ST. I think i would only give his super mid body invulnerability till the second hit to pass though fbs easier. This would change his super from descent to GOOD, but not too good like some other supers.

Sagat: I would only remove his juggles in the tiger knee because imo its retarded. I would also lower the stun on his J.RHs. Other than that he is perfect in HDR.

Honda: He definitely needs help against projectile chars, and he didnt received enough in HDR. I would buff him even more, but i just dont know what... Im sure Honda mainers have the right ideas.

I would make his Throwable box (white box) a little bigger so T.Hawk can throw him in a safe range easier. Nothing too radical just something like 6 pixels worst, he would still outrange all the cast minus the grapples with his oicho anyway, i belive this is one of the obvious changes that should be made. If you look at his hitboxes you will notice that he has a very little throwable box for a character of his size. I would remove his stored super and oicho because its too good (oicho) and retarded (both).

Balrog: he deservers to be nerfed more, for instance i would make his throw range fixed like all the rest of the cast, this would remove his range advantage against blanka and honda normal throws (which makes no sense at all) and would buff his throw range aginst sim and gief, which is fine imo, since it his 2 worst matchups. I would also make his super unsafe on block against everyone and remove his ability to crossunder after his grab, its just too cheap, he doesnt need that shit to win.

Vega: His ground game is legit imo, the only retarded shit he has is his dive loop. But i dont know how to really fix it, i would try this way: keep the knockdown, but make it unsafe on block, but just for 2 frames or something like that so only throws would counter it. I also think his anti aerial special move is too good but im okay with how it is.

Chunli: I would remove her stored super because in my opinion its retarded... This would be a radical change i know, every chunli player would be pissed off, but face it, that thing is retarded. So i would make her super a bit more invulnerable otherwise it will be too shitty. Maybe invulenrable till the second hit or something like that. I would also fix her throw damage because its just unfair, its does as much damage as a jab SPD... some other stuff should be nerfed as well but i just dont know enough about her so i wont go further cuz anything i would say now would be wrong...

Dhalsim: I dont think he derserves to be too nerfed, only a little. He is the best char in the game, i know, but he is so hard to be used at the highest levels so i think he deserves to be at the top. From a ST stand point, its natural to think that him being able to reversal super is too good, anyone will agree with that, but what if he could be thrown during the startup? That would fix the inbalances that it would cause agaisnt t.hawk and gief... I cant think of a better solution for making his super being far with reversal ability.

Akuma: Would be a secret character, he is just too dumb, we already got 2 shotos, we dont need a 3rd.

Old characters: i would remove them, i find no reason for them to exist. In a perfect balanced game they have no place. O.Ken's jab dps are retarded, O.sagat is retarded, O.thawk would already be in my rebalanced thawk, and the rest is jut inferior to the new version and uninteresting. The only O character worth keeping in my opinion would be O.Honda since he is very different, but if he is kept then all the other 15 should as well, so i would just remove them all.

Lol i spent like one hour typing all that stuff, which is time that i dont have!!! Im too adicted to this game, damn.

Just to give you a flavour Joffles

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andygt

andygt

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Joffo, regarding Ultra inputs on the stick you can use the guile ultra input (db,df,db,uf) instead of 2xqcf - don't know if it'll make the Ultra inputs easier for you but it did for me - it's also useful for buffering supers which cancel off normals.

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joffocakes

joffocakes

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I think it might be my grip that's the problem. I hold it like the handle of a big beer mug. Also my motions are pretty large (not a poo joke); grinding off the edge of the gate all the time. I have no idea how some of you manage that fast ducking-dance; I can only manage it at half the speed.

I sometimes conciously switch to wineglass style grip, but mid match somewhere, without thinking, I've already switched back.

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mayor_mike_haggar

mayor_mike_haggar

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Jof(f). Can't you just fatly option select dan's dragon punch on rose's wakeup? I'd imagine it would punish backdash and potentially beat out ex spiral. Dunno what would happen against soul throw, maybe it'd win too?

I am semi regularly busting out OS tatsu with my ryu against donut's seth, when I remember. It's really satisfying when he teleports forwards to fuck me up and I go twirling merrily into the corner.

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strawdonkey

strawdonkey

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Sorry for delay... I should be available most nights this week. Let me know when you are available.

No worries. Saturday or Sunday would probably suit me best, if either of those are OK for you? No plans at present but evenings might be easiest for me to get away with.

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cale

cale

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Yes, I would love to play in a 3S tourney despite being garbage. Can I use Gill if I meet Donut? I could play HDR too but I'd have to buy it first and does anyone really need to see me flap about only using HP and HK?

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Lyrical Donut

Lyrical Donut

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Bah, I was going to upload a short video to explain why I love Joffo's Dan so dearly, but the match in question was against a lobby tyrant and I forgot to do the back button to save thing :(

Anyway, he did some ridiculous FADC things which dizzied this other chap's Ryu, Joffo then busted out the butt slappin' taunt and cancelled into Ultra.

Oh and Nate - I no longer have our matches in my Battle Log, so don't go on any wild lobby sessions until you've recorded / saved them out at your end.

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