Avatar 2 - The Way of Water Dec 2022

[DarhkFox]

I ended up watching this on NYE.

 

I do still agree the movie is too long. It could be trimmed, but saying that I wasn't really clock watching or anything like that. I enjoyed the fact we had a lot more characters - infact I really thought the whole coming of age thing was decent, if not that original. Spider, Kiri and Lo'ak (that's the younger brother right) were were my favorites  - i think Kiri certainly has a lot more to do with the story going forward. 

 

The effects were great, but like a lot of 3d movies you get used to the effect quite often but it was the optimal way of seeing this. The ending hour or so was very enjoyable, if not a little silly (like with the kidnapps keep happening) but a decent end to the movie.

 

Overal i quite enjoyed it and certainly has revived my interested in the Avatar series. Look forward to #3 later this year.

 

[FishyFish]

7 minutes ago, DarhkFox said:

 

 

Overal i quite enjoyed it and certainly has revived my interested in the Avatar series. Look forward to #3 later this year.

 

 

It's not out until December 2024, IIRC.

[RJames]

 

[DarhkFox]

26 minutes ago, FishyFish said:

 

It's not out until December 2024, IIRC.

 

Ah fair enough. For some reason i thought they were a year apart.

[Loik V credern]

Yeah I watched a bit of that Avatar is real video, the shot i liked most in the trailer of the baby surfacing with the whale's eye there also looks real, the baby, not the whale. It feels more epic in the trailer because it's a part of 2 minutes of footage, in the film it's so brief no one would remember it. Cameron doesn't hang on it at all.

 

The obsession with the visuals in terms of the cgi overlooks basic cinematography we enjoy in most other films. Like i watched a film recently, the cinematography is about as good as it can be, a shot of a character being kind of introduced exiting a building from afar then walking towards, into and past the camera, it's two shots but leaves an impression. It's the vertical shape lit up showing his frame becoming bigger.

 

Or another shot at night of a character running into a road lit from behind, it's beautiful and atmospheric. The reverse shot on that is so fucking good it's ridiculous, like something from a magazine, character nonchalently hanging his elbows on the car door. It's the large shapes and minimalism of it. It's simple, the same shots can be re used again and again but it still takes care i think. I know virtually every film is storyboarded, but it's also clear when a film is being lazy with it.

 

Most films have establishing shots, Avatar has none. Or doesn't seem to because it doesn't have any contrast inbetween shots, when Peter Bradshaw says 'frankly, there isn’t a single interesting visual image' this is what he means. I watched The Full Monty again the other night for the first time in decades and was struck by well framed it is. Everything in our ultra capitalistic society is so geared towards the only beauty is in high definition pretty visuals that i wonder if anyone else cares. Even if those high definition visuals are cliched and aren't remotely composed well or memorable.

 

I don't know, maybe i just enjoy framing too much, there's a bit where they're wrapped up in towels stood in a police station and it's just three vertical grey shapes popping out, but they overlap, Carlyle is in profile to the right, the one furthest to the left also in profile, one in the middle looking towards the officer whose big head in the foreground dwarfs them. Clock above, posters behind cut into enough, even some black wearing guys in the background to the right. It wasn't an accident, layers and lighting when composed in a particular way can pop out and when you've got an cinematographer working with just people in spaces in a simple way they can achieve more. If this is obvious and coming off insultingly patronising then i'm only saying it because when stuff like Avatar is fawned over like people are seeing colour for the first time i start to wonder if people appreciate the simpler stuff. There are many ways that simple 10 second shot in The Full Monty could have been done, they picked towels because it's funny, and/or because it is visual, they didn't need to overlap. The scene with the car is another perfectly shot scene, running up the hill with the backdrop of the town behind, i thought this at the time, it's cinematic and beautiful.

 

There are films like The Old Guard that are so poorly framed it really affects the finished thing. (i think it's crap anyway though) Not sure how much the framing and editing helped The Full Monty be successful and a classic but apparently the first edit was so bad it nearly went to video. When framing is so bad, like unneccessary shot after unneccessary shot, no distinction, it's hard to imagine how else the staging can be because it underpins everything. When something is so precise in every scene it's obvious the director knows exactly what they're trying to reveal, when it's just a bloated unspecific mess it feels like you have to start again.

 

Cameron is great at composiong images and action obviously, but a lot of heavy cgi films have this issue, there's numerous videos about it. The way they use green screen. There's a good comparison between someone threathening another person in Unforgiven and Guardians of the Galaxy. When someone pulls a gun out in Unforgiven the shot is close, below, in Guardians there's no dynamism to the shot, it's just straight. Any suspense isn't maximised. I'm going to take it the nature of shooting these films limits the kind of framing we see in the classic films.

[fasteasyfree]

There were numerous times where I found the combination of shiny CGI and switch to 48fps a little jarring. I felt like I was watching a videogame cut scene, and it broke immersion.

 

Otherwise I really enjoyed. Some of the latter action scenes could have been trimmed, but I feel the rest could have actually been extended somewhat! For character building and driving forward (sub?) plots like Kiri's.

[thesnwmn]

Whilst I was surprised to find I wasn't bored at any point during this I think it would have been a far far superior film at 2 or 2.5 hours.

 

Its a rather limited story. Its focus is too small. It isn't telling an epic story worthy of its flabby length. It is a very simple revenge flick that takes ages to tell that very simple story.

 

I'd much rather see them work in, or focus entirely, on the wider story of the colonisation attempt. No mention of what goes on in the forest after Jake and family leave. The humans and natives are, presumably, still butting up against each other. Or did Jake and family leaving just mean the forest tribes said fuck it and let the humans continuing fucking their planet, destroying their habitats and stealing their land.

 

Either tell an epic story worthy of this runtime or make a short and punchy film to tell this little story.

 

Looked good though 

[Loik V credern]

Next Avatar will have evil fire Na’vi. Like a cheap platformer or kart racer going through all the predictable environments..

 

Quote

“The fire will be represented by the ‘Ash People.’ I want to show the Na’vi from another angle because, so far, I have only shown their good sides,” Cameron said (via Total Film). “In the early films, there are very negative human examples and very positive Na’vi examples. In Avatar 3, we will do the opposite. We will also explore new worlds, while continuing the story of the main characters. I can say that the last parts will be the best. The others were an introduction, a way to set the table before serving the meal.”

 

..or just the last airbender

 

Quote

The concept of “evil fire Na’vi” might seem familiar for fans of the (similarly named) Nickelodeon show “Avatar: The Last Airbender,” which featured the warring Fire Nation as its chief antagonistic faction. All “Avatar 4” needs to do is introduce desert or rock Na’vi representing earth and the quartet will be complete.

 

 

[Alex W.]

I’d say “maybe they’ll combine their powers with the Heart Na’vi and summon Captain Pandora to save the day” but there’s a nontrivial risk that will actually happen.

[FishyFish]

Maybe some ice Na'vi from northern Pandora all portrayed by Raplph Ineson could feature at some point.

[Haribokart]

Can't wait for the Fire Na'vi to realise the error of their ways and have a sudden about turn to help our heroes in the last 15 minutes of Avatar 3.

[scottcr]

Saw this in regular 2D - my son has ASD and just refuses to watch anything in 3D. Think it spooked him when he was wee.

 

anyway, enjoyed it a lot more than I thought I would. Reckon they could’ve trimmed it by 20 mins or so, but the action was superb. Think I’ll go see it in IMAX 3D myself

[krenzler]

This seems set to get into top-5 all time grosses having long legs and nothing big coming in the next few months.

 

https://www.boxofficemojo.com/chart/ww_top_lifetime_gross/?area=XWW

[Captain Novaforce]

On 05/01/2023 at 01:25, Loik V credern said:

Next Avatar will have evil fire Na’vi. Like a cheap platformer or kart racer going through all the predictable environments..

 

 

..or just the last airbender

 

 

 

 

I wonder if there will be earth Na'vi then?

 

Or maybe humans see the earthlings?!

 

[Festoon]

On 05/01/2023 at 01:25, Loik V credern said:

Next Avatar will have evil fire Na’vi. Like a cheap platformer or kart racer going through all the predictable environments..

 

 

..or just the last airbender

 

 

 

 

Looking forward to slippy-slidey ice world Na'vi.

[Delargey]

On 05/01/2023 at 10:28, Haribokart said:

Can't wait for the Fire Na'vi to realise the error of their ways and have a sudden about turn to help our heroes in the last 15 minutes of Avatar 3.

 

I'm excited to see a cabbage merchants wares continually getting destroyed.

[monkeydog]

This was as terrible/great as the first film. Will watch the next one. 

 

The Abyss is still Cameron's best cheesy earnest alien water love environmental film. 

[schmojo]

Bearing in mind that Cameron's social awareness is about 70 years behind his technical awareness, I'm expecting this to be problematic as all fuck.

 

 

[Stig]

I caved and went to see it today.

 

It's on par with the first for me, a solid enjoyable 3/5 that's pulled through mainly by the visuals than the storytelling. But at least this one was more original than the 1st.

 

There was stuff I liked and some moments that were great.

Spoiler

The whale hunting scene was harrowing and even though they're fake creatures it's obvious what it's pointing towards. Does a good job of making you feel uncomfortable and almost guilty about what's happening to our oceans.

 

However at times I found it ponderous and dragging, it didnt need to be so long. I have no issue with long films if they're worth the time, but I didn't think this needed to be 3hrs 15mins.

 

Some of the dialogue was just awful and the use of "bro" & "cuz" felt so jaring everytime they said it. Thankfully though, I didn't find the kids annoying which is always a good thing. Apart from the younger one who just succumbed to all the usual tropes of a young child.

Spoiler

Kudos to Cameron and having the balls to kill one of them off. I actually found that moment really effective and emotional and it lead to both parents going Postal on the ship crew which was a great scene.

 

Visually its unmatched and there were moments that looked incredible. The water effects were outstanding as was the motion capture. My biggest gripe with the visuals though is when you introduce real humans into the world, they look weird and almost fake.

 

Going forward I would like to see something different that isn't just humans arrive and attack. I'd be more interested in seeing conflicts internally and with other tribes. It's a huge world, lets explore it. Based on schmojos post though, it sounds like that's what we're getting.

 

 

[Stig]

Watched the pitch meeting on this and reading some of the comments underneath just made me dislike the script and story even more. It's so poor.

 

 

[Broker]

This movie was bizarre. I expect films to be bad or good, but this was both. It had genuinely brilliant parts and utterly terrible parts. Characters who were nuanced and interesting, and characters who were so bland I already barely remember them. It was both generic and weird.

 

The first 30-45 minutes were absolutely terrible. I was feeling like I’d let myself in for several more hours of absolute garbage. But it picked up a lot when it went from fern gully to moana. The end was pretty good, and it had some sequences that were kinda harrowing. Sam Worthington is terrible and all the bits he narrated were incredibly cringy. A lot of the script was awful. The stealth style action scene near the end was really cool. I liked the animals.

 

The plot was basically the same as the first movie. The bit at the start where they sped through explaining what happened since the first movie and basically reset the status quo was lazy and stupid. The cat people all look too similar to each other. 
 

I really liked the bit where the kid who clearly has super powers got checked out by the doctors and they were like “yeah no that’s epilepsy”. That was really funny. 

[K]

I finally watched this last night. I watched and enjoyed the first film when it came out and saw it twice at the cinema, but I’ve barely thought of it since then and had filed it away in my memory as something I was briefly into but rapidly snapped out of. I had very little interest in the new film until I randomly decided to show it to my seven year-old son on a rainy, cold, afternoon, and was pleasantly surprised by how good it was. Part of this was seeing it through his eyes – it’s a simple story told in broad strokes, but told with absolute passion and conviction, and that utter commitment to the story and world combined with some striking images made it really compelling for a seven year old with some nice opportunities for an aging nerd to explain things like cryosleep and interstellar travel to the boy. I don’t think I’ve ever seen my son get so emotionally engaged with a film – ET barely merited a response, even when the little turd gnome dies and is resurrected, but in this he was gasping and shouting throughout. At one point when the baddies deploy a load of mech suits from a dropship, I said “cool!” out loud, partly to elicit a response from him and partly because I thought it was unironically cool, but my son’s response was to say “no, it’s NOT cool. They’re going to kill the avatars”, which was surprising and quite touching. I’d forgotten how violent the final battle was – there are quite a few shots of people being gunned down and impaled by spears, being crushed by space rhinos, having their heads bitten off by dragons etc, but our reactions of “oof!” and “ow!” were pretty much aligned. It was a good viewing of the film, and a nice bonding moment.

 

So I decided to watch the sequel before it left the cinemas. And… it’s OK. It’s pretty much the original film squared, in that the special effects were considerably better, the emotional bits were more affecting, the action was more intense, and the violence was more hard-hitting. But the lame bits were even lamer, the longeurs were even longeur, and the boring bits had me writhing around in my seat. It’s basically Titanic, in that the last hour or so is absolutely spectacular, but man alive you have to sit through some tripe to get there.

 

Spoiler

Bits of the film had me almost crying: the scene where Jake’s son dies was brutal and very affecting, as was the whale-hunting sequence, but bits of it were inordinately dull and even laughable. If I could go back and get James Cameron to change one thing in this film, I would go down on my knees and beg him not to have the whales speak in subtitles. That seemed like such a colossal misjudgement that I can scarcely believe its in there. In fact, it’s barely in there anyway. You can get the drift without the subtitles, and the whales speak so infrequently that I assumed the first time was an error or I’d misinterpreted it because there’s no way they’d have whales speaking in subtitles, this isn’t Seaquest DSV.

 

I think my biggest beef with the film was that its basically the same film as the first one, except with lower stakes and without the interesting gimmick of Jake and the others jumping in and out of the na’vi they’re piloting. Without that, it’s even less of a science fiction film than the first one. The forest na’vi are basically native americans, the sea na’vi are basically Polynesians. The space whales are whales, the space manta rays are manta rays, and so on and so forth. Almost everything in the film is an Earth animal with extra bits stuck on it. They can jack into the matrix via their hair winkies, but this doesn’t have much bearing on the film. It looks like the front over of a Psygnosis game, and there was some stunning imagery – the human spacecraft landing on their drive flames was astonishing, as were the eclipses and some of the underwater imagery, but the filmmakers didn’t seem to be that interested in showing anything really alien, or in exploring many of the ramifications of the underlying ideas (i.e. restoring human beings from mind-state backups, functional immortality, etc).

 

But for all that, it was pretty enjoyable. It's almost a James Cameron greatest hits at times - the sequence in the sinking ship, where people are being handcuffed to railings, struggling with bulkhead doors, and floating past dead crewmen was very reminiscent of the Abyss. The end was surprisingly violent, and I’m pretty glad I didn’t take my son to see it – that guy’s arm getting wrenched off by a chain was satisfying but horrendous, and the human troops at the end got utterly brutalised – but the first and last hours of the film were stunning. The extremely tedious nature of the middle section took the shine off a bit, but it was worth seeing. Not sure about the sequels - I don't know if these characters have enough complex circuitry to sustain two or three more films - but I'm glad I saw this on the big screen.

.

[Pob]

47 minutes ago, K said:

Spoiler

that guy’s arm getting wrenched off by a chain was satisfying but horrendous

 

 

My otherwise-quiet 10-year-old exclaimed "bloody 'ell!" in an uncharacteristic London accent at that bit. It cracked me up.

[BitterToad]

I absolutely burst out laughing every time 

Spoiler

the whales spoke. 

It's both the stupidest thing in the film and clearly the best thing about the whole franchise. Also see Kate Winslet crying and saying 

Spoiler

"he was a composer!" as she looks at a dead whale.

Genuinely laugh out loud funny thanks very much James Cameron see you in two years. 

[K]

I think that scene could have been quite powerful if they’d tweaked the dialogue a bit.

 

Spoiler

The actual whale-hunting scene was harrowing, especially the bit where the calf is swimming around its dead mother looking confused, and I don’t think it would take much to give a similar impact to the bit where the na’avi find the body. They’ve established that the whales are highly intelligent and have a complex culture, and we all know whales sing. That scene was an open goal, so it’s a bit strange that they managed to make it as comical as it is.

 

[pledge]

Only just managed to see this as I got sick before my original tickets before Christmas. The first time I've been to BFI IMAX since it was upgraded, and I'm sure it is also partly down to the improvements in how they filmed it, but it looked incredible. Like someone said earlier,  real 'looking through a window' generational jump. Like the first it is a cinema experience and I pretty likely wont watch it on home TV. I loved the original and I loved this. I went for a popcorn blockbuster and got it. 4.5/5