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Tomb Raider (2013)

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6 hours ago, Dinobot said:

 

There's multiple instances of journalists who've moved into development and they all say "Well that was harder than I thought, I shouldn't have been so tough on those games I smashed to bits!"

 

However this is good! Progress! Let us hear the other options to make this climb Lara, climb element much better.

 

Mate, I don't care how hard it is. Nobody here critiques anything on the basis of how challenging it is to make the thing that they're critiquing. It's a product, and i'm criticising the product.

 

It's not an issue of how hard it is - Crystal Dynamics have already made one ok TR game, one good one and one excellent one. They know how to make such games, so I'm not asking them to do something that only exists in my head. I'm not asking them to imagine an inmaginable colour.

 

But they wanted to make an Uncharted game, so they made an Uncharted game. Therein lies the problem.

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28 minutes ago, Smitty said:

But they wanted to make an Uncharted game, so they made an Uncharted game. Therein lies the problem.

 

For you, yes. For the millions of people that bought and played the game (and it’s sequel), and for most of the critics, it wasn’t a problem at all. 

 

It’s a good game, just not the one you want. There’s nothing wrong with that. 

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20 minutes ago, Radish said:

 

For you, yes. For the millions of people that bought and played the game (and it’s sequel), and for most of the critics, it wasn’t a problem at all. 

 

It’s a good game, just not the one you want. There’s nothing wrong with that. 

 

Yes, for me. Of course for me. How could I be writing from any other perspective but my own? Why are we having to go over such basic concepts as 'opinions'? It makes for extremely odd exchanges.

 

No, you think it's a good game. I obviously don't. Aside from my desire for it to be something else, I think that the fact that its trying to keep its feet in two very different worlds in an attempt to please both TR fans and Uncharted/AAA trends fans. And that because of that it has a confused design.

 

Uncharted knows what it is. Doom knows what it is. These games design are congruent with their intention. TR13 is desperately trying to be multiple things to multiple people, but varying levels of importance placed on those groups.

 

Again, CD can still make puzzles and tombs as evidenced by the optional tombs in Rise. But these games aren't about puzzles and tombs. Which is what TR has always been about.

 

For the few puzzles and tombs that you do have to do Lara....Lara....Lara tells you how to complete the puzzles. She will literally say 'now' so that you know when to jump. It's amazing.  I don't know why such horribly patronising, shallow gameplay is celebrated.

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You can actually link this discussion back to the originals by asking whether the much-criticised driving sections in Tomb Raider Legend really adds anything to that game, and wether its a good fit for a TR game.

 

People generally hated those bits because they were so shallow and felt incongrous with the rest of the game. Remember those?

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2 hours ago, Smitty said:

 

Mate, I don't care how hard it is. Nobody here critiques anything on the basis of how challenging it is to make the thing that they're critiquing. It's a product, and i'm criticising the product.

 

It's not an issue of how hard it is - Crystal Dynamics have already made two pretty good TR games and one excellent one. They know how to make such games, so I'm not asking them to do something that only exists in my head. I'm not asking them to imagine an inmaginable colour.

 

But they wanted to make an Uncharted game, so they made an Uncharted game. Therein lies the problem.

 

Hang on I cannot critique your critique? How odd!

 

Hey come on now you said it was easy to come up with ideas to improve that bit you don't like.

 

EASY!

 

So let's hear them! Yeah, discussion!!

 

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I heard about these games with 3d jumping and climbing puzzles that are apparently quite good. Something to do with a plumber.

 

Seriously though, much as I enjoyed rise, once I'd notice I was in a push up to view amazing action section, it pulled me out of the game and was in most cases genuinely more boring that standing looking at the nice scenery.

 

There's always been a tension in games between the joy of movement and having your intentions translate to on-screen action in a very direct way, vs having 'you' do amazing, sophisticated things on-screen that no control scheme allows a direct mapping for.

 

Again I really liked rise, and (although I didn't finish it) 2013 was pretty good, but tend to agree that the move toward more spectacle with less interaction since the reboot is a regression. 

 

Might've been already posted, but in the spirit of other people saying it better, Mark Brown went over this a while ago and as usual did a great job:

 

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2 hours ago, Dinobot said:

 

Hang on I cannot critique your critique? How odd!

 

Hey come on now you said it was easy to come up with ideas to improve that bit you don't like.

 

EASY!

 

So let's hear them! Yeah, discussion!!

 

 

ok...

 

whenever lara isn't on screen everyone else should be like "where's lara, I wish lara was here..."

 

you can have that one for free.

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2 minutes ago, Smitty said:

 

It's a discussion forum. For games. I'm discussing a game. What are you adding?

image.png.3612c0c8aa1b8784e0af0d8eb8084987.png

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12 minutes ago, Smitty said:

 

It's a discussion forum. For games. I'm discussing a game. What are you adding?

Tell you what, when you bring something new to the discussion about this game, then so will I. Until then...

 

giant.gif...

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2 hours ago, Dinobot said:

 

Hang on I cannot critique your critique? How odd!

 

Hey come on now you said it was easy to come up with ideas to improve that bit you don't like.

 

EASY!

 

So let's hear them! Yeah, discussion!!

 

 

The bit I don't like is the whole game. How do you improve it? Well, just make a Tomb Raider game. You can go and study the series for some guidance as to what a TR game is.

 

When you look back it's a real shock to see just how far the series (and gaming as a whole) has degraded. You've got these big complex areas with tricky challenges and no hand-holding that leave the player to work things out for themselves.

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6 minutes ago, APM said:

Tell you what, when you bring something new to the discussion about this game, then so will I. Until then...

 

giant.gif...

 

You come and stir the pot, you purposefully try to piss me off and then you''ll act surprised if I get pissed off. I know what I should say to you: it's two words and I think you know what the are.

 

When you cut all the bullshit, I'm talking about a game. You're talking about ME. It's the same old transparent shit. Give it a fucking rest. Don't read my posts. Don't come into the thread. Or just use the ignore function. Maybe go and play this perfect game that you worship so much.

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2 hours ago, Smitty said:

 

The bit I don't like is the whole game. How do you improve it? Well, just make a Tomb Raider game. You can go and study the series for some guidance as to what a TR game is.

 

When you look back it's a real shock to see just how far the series (and gaming as a whole) has degraded. You've got these big complex areas with tricky challenges and no hand-holding that leave the player to work things out for themselves.

 

You were complaining about the climbing bit specifically and said it was easy to improve it.

 

How exactly would you do that? I must be missing something because it's super easy to fix.

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4 hours ago, Dinobot said:

 

You were complaining about the climbing bit specifically and said it was easy to improve it.

 

How exactly would you do that? I must be missing something because it's super easy to fix.

climbing should be a rhythm action game, Speed and Accuracy improve climbing speed.

 

Or horizontal and vertical sliders, for each handhold, like taking a penalty in FIFA, or a golf game, if you get it in the sweet spot then the next one is more generous, fail and you risk falling.

 

or track and field style button mashing to propel Lara up the mountain.

 

or OPTIONAL ps4 move controller& camera/xbox kinect based climbing. As you climb, so does Lara.

 

um...

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15 hours ago, Unofficial Who said:

Did anyone play the endurance / survival mode in Rise of the Tomb Raider?

 

https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2016/01/29/rise-of-the-tomb-raider-endurance-dlc-review/

 

 

 

That sounds brilliant! I'm going to try that this evening.

 

I love this kind of mode and I wish more DLCs had stuff like that.

 

I couldn't be arsed with the main story, but there's no doubt that ROTTR is a slick game.

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13 hours ago, Smitty said:

 

You come and stir the pot, you purposefully try to piss me off and then you''ll act surprised if I get pissed off. I know what I should say to you: it's two words and I think you know what the are.

 

When you cut all the bullshit, I'm talking about a game. You're talking about ME. It's the same old transparent shit. Give it a fucking rest. Don't read my posts. Don't come into the thread. Or just use the ignore function. Maybe go and play this perfect game that you worship so much.

I'm not discussing you. I'm stating that this discussion was done to bitter death five years ago and I wonder at just why you have felt the need to dredge it up again. Come up with some new criticism of a five year old game and then I'll engage on a critical level. You haven't done that. You've just regurgitated your views from five years ago.

 

Now, in reference to the Mark Brown video above... There's some choice omissions in that. Let's take the original game that he uses. In describing how you jumped, he fails to mention that you can do a standing jump as well. You don't have to take a run up every time. Indeed, some of the gaps demanded this be done, otherwise you would die. As he complains that this is a problem with the new game, this is an oversight. I know you can jump further in the new game than the old one, but if you are going to criticise, at least present all the options. Similarly, he omits all the jumps you have to make when you have to grab on with the pick axe. This requires you to jump and the press another button to grab on. This is exactly what he says the old game has that the new game doesn't. Again, his analysis does not present all the facts. Now I'm not saying the traversal is perfect in Tomb Raider (2013), but there is more to it than what is presented here.

 

Further, the games he references are all about traversal. They're not about solving puzzles, fighting or anything else. They are games that focus on you and the environment. Tomb Raider was about exploring locations whilst solving some puzzles and engaging in combat. From Tomb Raider 2 onwards, that combat was mostly against other people as well. It is only the original game that had you primarily fighting wildlife. TR (2013) is this ethos brought into a modern game context. The traversal of the environment is just a part of the entire game. This is how modern games have evolved. Mirror's Edge, Grow Home and Grow Up and that odd Bennett Foddy game are all about the traversal. 

 

I'm not saying, nor have I ever said, TR (2013) is perfect, but it is a thoroughly enjoyable modern action game that brought the old aspects up to date, as they were in 2013. 

 

Finally, as a business, did Square make the right choice?

 

Tomb Raider 1996 7 million

Tomb Raider II 1997 6.5 million

Tomb Raider III 1998 6 million

Tomb Raider: The Last Revelation 1999 5 million

Tomb Raider Chronicles 2000 1.5 million

Tomb Raider: The Angel of Darkness 2003 2.5 million

Tomb Raider: Legend 2006 2 million

Tomb Raider Anniversary 2007 1.3 million

Tomb Raider: Underworld 2008 2.6 million

Tomb Raider (2013) 2013 11 million

Rise of the Tomb Raider 2015 7 million

 

 I'm not saying sales are a measure of quality, but from a business point of view, rebooting the series into what they have done seems like the right choice. I'm sure a standard, old school Tomb Raider would have it's fans. But would it sell enough to justify it, considering the production costs of creating a game like that to expected modern standards? 

 

Argue all you want about a few scenes that wrestle control away for a few minutes or something, but again, this is falsely painting the entire game like that, which it isn't. 

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Fair point on the video underselling the modern games mechanics, but the fact that the old game additionally had a standing jump with different properties (plus wall kicks and some other stuff) only strengthens the argument that those games required more attention. I think the general point stands that increased interaction is more engaging - were the ice-pick grabs not among the most exciting parts of rise or 2013? I don't agree that traversal wasn't a primary draw of the old games - at the time that kind of 3d movement was almost unheard of and there weren't may alternative examples showing up how clunky it was. More importantly, demanding traversal and exploration needn't be either-or. they can feed and fuel one-another.

 

Given that tr2013 and rise have better shooting than many dedicated shooters, it doesn't seem unreasonable to want the series to to have better traversal, especially given the amount of other cruft they contain. 

 

The business numbers seem to suggest more folks prefer the new approach, and maybe what I consider better would make the game unplayable for the majority. I think why this particular one sticks in the craw is that while tr was always marketed at the mainstream, the old games were pretty hard-core.The reboot seems to put maximum breadth of appeal over all else and loses some of what made it special for the people who made it a valuable property in the first place (I AM OWED FRUSTRATING PLATFORM SECTIONS!!!!). Change and evolution was necessary, but uncharted already exists and I'd prefer an alternative to a re-skin.

 

That was pretty old-man rambly, but there might be something of substance.

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@MegaTrousers Wall kick? I agree with the ice pick and there are loads of those bits. I would also say that I simply don't want to press a button to grab every time I jump these days. While I can understand how that worked in the original with it's much slower pace, would it work in the new one with it's increased pace? I'm not sure. I mean, I've jumped, I want my avatar to grab the ledge I've pointed them at. Do I need to push a button to tell it to do that? 

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Yeah, can't remember if the first had it but tr2 definitely does. I don't believe it was necessary to complete any levels, but made certain sections faster and might have been needed for a few secrets.

 

Correction: its not a wall-kick in the Mario sense, but you can flip off slidey angled surfaces. 

Edited by MegaTrousers
extra detail

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5 hours ago, Pob said:

That sounds brilliant! I'm going to try that this evening.

 

I love this kind of mode and I wish more DLCs had stuff like that.

 

I couldn't be arsed with the main story, but there's no doubt that ROTTR is a slick game.

It's nothing compared to The Division's Survival mode.

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2 hours ago, APM said:

I'm not discussing you. I'm stating that this discussion was done to bitter death five years ago and I wonder at just why you have felt the need to dredge it up again. Come up with some new criticism of a five year old game and then I'll engage on a critical level. You haven't done that. You've just regurgitated your views from five years ago.

 

You are absolutely discussing me. Your behaviour is transparent.

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21 hours ago, Smitty said:

 

Yes, for me. Of course for me. How could I be writing from any other perspective but my own? Why are we having to go over such basic concepts as 'opinions'? It makes for extremely odd exchanges.

 

No, you think it's a good game. I obviously don't.

 

No, it is a good game. It just isn't what you want. You seem to be missing the point here. Forza is a good racing game, but it's not for me and I don't enjoy it. I don't go wading into the Forza thread explaining why it's a bad game because it's not like something else I prefer. Tomb Raider is objectively a good game. That's why it sold and reviewed so well.

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1 hour ago, MegaTrousers said:

 

The business numbers seem to suggest more folks prefer the new approach, and maybe what I consider better would make the game unplayable for the majority. I think why this particular one sticks in the craw is that while tr was always marketed at the mainstream, the old games were pretty hard-core.The reboot seems to put maximum breadth of appeal over all else and loses some of what made it special for the people who made it a valuable property in the first place (I AM OWED FRUSTRATING PLATFORM SECTIONS!!!!). Change and evolution was necessary, but uncharted already exists and I'd prefer an alternative to a re-skin.

 

 

It's not about wanting frustrating platforming though. It's about wanting platforming, full stop. The Core games (particularly the first one) had some frustrations because:

 

1: The textures were bad which made some stuff hard to see

2: The controls were bad

 

The CD trilogy vastly improved the controls and, of course, modern graphics fixed the texture issues. They have much, much better 'telegraphing' of all information relevant to the player than the original titles. These are all improvements which don't damage to the gameplay. Stuff like drastically simplifying the size and complexity of the levels did damage the gameplay, but that's another matter.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Radish said:

 

No, it is a good game.

 

Weird. I'll just repeat what I said before: why are we having to go over such basic concepts as 'opinions'?

 

There is no such thing as an objectively true opinion when opinions are subjective by their nature.

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