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Tomb Raider (2013)

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1 hour ago, Smitty said:

 

Dino. It's a game. When you say overcomplication here what you mean is gameplay. In a game.

 

Agree with this. It’s just tedious time wasting. Games like God of War and Uncharted are full of this. It’s neither cut scene nor gameplay. It’s something the game designer has put in a game because he hates his job. 

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1 minute ago, ryodi said:

When Tomb Raider 2013  started development Uncharted was the proven model for AAA success and they mimicked it. It was a much bigger success than any of the previous Tomb Raider games which were much more in line with the classic style so the 2013 edition was a necessary change to keep the series relevent. I enjoyed 2013 apart from the stupid 'washed down a river' QTE events which were thankfully missing from RotTR it's just a shame the only one of her friends they've kept for the sequels is Jonah who is by far the least interesting character in it.

 

I enjoyed that bit but if you accidentally die  on your first go i can see why people get annoyed.

 

Also, i enjoyed TR2013 (and probably ROTTR) a lot more than the Uncharted games, although Uncharted 2 was pretty good (haven't finished Uncharted 4 yet).

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1 minute ago, Darhkwing said:

 

As previously said, i have played it twice and not quite sure what you are getting at. There is probably less than 1 hour of these set pieces (or cut scenes as you say) for the entire game (out of 15-20 hours).

 

It's entirely emblematic of a few of the central core design elements of the game, but lets just leave that aside.

 

The problem isn't just the set pieces. The entire game has been built around allowing these set pieces to happen technically, narratively and mechanically, but let's just leave that aside.

 

I obviously don't like the core gameplay loop. I have numerous issues with it. Aside from its inherent problems and weaknesses I don't think it's a good fit for a Tomb Raider game.

 

Oh and i'm not describing all the set pieces as cutscenes at all. This particular example practically is, but obviously most of them are proper gameplay and interactive to more or less of a degree (some have limited player control).

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31 minutes ago, Lorfarius said:

Is this the one with the bear? I liked that.

 

yeah, but it feels like a game with multiple opening levels, rather than a cohesive whole

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1 minute ago, SeanR said:

 

yeah, but it feels like a game with multiple opening levels, rather than a cohesive whole

 

Is there a bear in the sequels?

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1 hour ago, Lorfarius said:

 

Is there a bear in the sequels?

 

1 hour ago, Darhkwing said:

 

the bear was in ROTTR not the first reboot.

 

ROTTR is the sequel to Tomb Raider (2013)

 

I do not know if Grimdark Shadows of the Murderous Misadventures of Lara Croft: The Tomb Raider has a bear in it yet...

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6 hours ago, Smitty said:

 

Dino. It's a game. When you say overcomplication here what you mean is gameplay. In a game.

 

It's the overall experience.

 

You don't have a handle on either what works or the requirements behind doing such, your complaints are not only non-sustainable - you do not even give other options.

 

It's all too easy to say "do it different" without any other alternative.

 

If you don't know how to make to better why keep banging about a game that is years old. You gonna patch it yourself?

 

Why not turn these complaints into something useful. All this time wasted as a keyboard warrior and not making a difference; all you end up doing is creating a Mexican wave of facepalms.

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Too many QTEs is probably a fair criticism, although they're mostly contained to the early game and then reserved for big set pieces, but there weren't that many "press forward and nothing else" sections, and they were only added for narrative impact (Lara climbing a massive, rickety tower but gosh, look at the view and Lara is injured so stumble forward slowly as she bleeds out - something they nicked wholesale from Uncharted and equally shit there). Sometimes they worked, sometimes they didn't. But, as someone else said, they're a drop in the ocean compared to the majority of the game. They certainly don't make up the bulk of the experience. 

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22 hours ago, Dinobot said:

You don't have a handle on either what works or the requirements behind doing such, your complaints are not only non-sustainable - you do not even give other options.

 

It's all too easy to say "do it different" without any other alternative.

 

If you don't know how to make to better why keep banging about a game that is years old. You gonna patch it yourself?

 

 

It's very, very easy to give other options. Also, are you seriously making a 'HAVE YOU MADE  A GAME' argument in 2018? Didn't we leave all of that behind us in our teenage years?

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1 hour ago, Orko said:

Too many QTEs is probably a fair criticism, although they're mostly contained to the early game and then reserved for big set pieces, but there weren't that many "press forward and nothing else" sections, and they were only added for narrative impact (Lara climbing a massive, rickety tower but gosh, look at the view and Lara is injured so stumble forward slowly as she bleeds out - something they nicked wholesale from Uncharted and equally shit there). Sometimes they worked, sometimes they didn't. But, as someone else said, they're a drop in the ocean compared to the majority of the game. They certainly don't make up the bulk of the experience. 

 

QTEs is just an example of the central thrust of the design. The problems with the design of the game are everywhere, in every element, in every section of gameplay.

 

The devs say 'this game is all about survival' and then in the game itself you can find arrows every 5 feet and enemies all drop ammo - even the ancient samurai zombies FFS!

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You see that's a good example of taking gameplay that is ultra-simplified - all you can do is press forward - adding 'exciting' music and some effects and then sitting back and calling it a 'set piece'.

 

It's not like you're pulling off some super-skilled moves as Lara, showing the game's mechanics at the height of their brilliance: you're just taking away player control and shaking the screen a bit.

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7 hours ago, Dudley said:

No-one tell Smitty about "What remains of Edith Finch"!

 

That's a narrative game. More of an interactive story. Not sure at all how it is relevant here.

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2 hours ago, Smitty said:

 

It's very, very easy to give other options. Also, are you seriously making a 'HAVE YOU MADE  A GAME' argument in 2018? Didn't we leave all of that behind us in our teenage years?

 

tomb raider is a game from 2013, but feel free to berate people for not leaving things behind. :coffee:

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2 hours ago, Smitty said:

 

QTEs is just an example of the central thrust of the design. The problems with the design of the game are everywhere, in every element, in every section of gameplay.

 

The devs say 'this game is all about survival' and then in the game itself you can find arrows every 5 feet and enemies all drop ammo - even the ancient samurai zombies FFS!

 

Well, you know... Samurais used bows, so it's not that far fetched :P

 

But everyone has different opinions on what is "fun" and what is "engaging". I enjoyed the reboot well enough, though it wasn't perfect. Not bothered with return, yet, but it's on my to do list. 

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4 minutes ago, Orko said:

 

Well, you know... Samurais used bows, so it's not that far fetched :P

 

They carry bullets for your guns.

 

SURVIVAL.

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Eh, it's a game. Surely you can forgive a bit of gaminess in your games? Why is it so egregious here? Does this kind of thing annoy you in all games, or is it just because you've got such issues with Tomb Raider in particular? Does it annoy you that your character can carry whole sets of armour, multiple weapons and a library's worth of books in Skyrim? Is it vexatious that only every third enemy you kill drops the thing you need in an adventure game? 

 

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1 minute ago, Orko said:

Eh, it's a game. Surely you can forgive a bit of gaminess in your games? Why is it so egregious here? Does this kind of thing annoy you in all games, or is it just because you've got such issues with Tomb Raider in particular?

 

 

I'm complaining it more from a mechanical and design perspective than a 'realism' perspective.

 

When there's abundant ammo in your survival game then you've got a problem. But, of course, this isn't actually a survival game. That was just an aesthetic gimmick and/or for marketing purposes.

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1 minute ago, Smitty said:

 

I'm complaining it more from a mechanical and design perspective than a 'realism' perspective.

 

When there's abundant ammo in your survival game then you've got a problem. But, of course, this isn't actually a survival game. That was just an aesthetic gimmick and/or for marketing purposes.

 

No doubt. I guess it depends how they're trying to define "survival" in the context. In this case, I believe survival simply means kill or be killed, trying not to die in the face of overwhelming odds, an army's worth of enemies and crazy traps, as opposed to survival like you might see in survival games i.e. limited resources. It makes sense within the context of the game that you have a lot of ammo, since the island is apparently full of mercenaries with guns and ammo to spare. 

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Did anyone play the endurance / survival mode in Rise of the Tomb Raider?

 

https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2016/01/29/rise-of-the-tomb-raider-endurance-dlc-review/

 

Cold is the killer. I know that there are rare resources and, most of all, ancient artifacts out there in the snowstorm somewhere, but if I spend too long clambering around looking for them, I’m going to freeze. Freezing isn’t an immediate death, but it does slow me down badly, and it chips steadily away at my health until I find a heat source. Shelter alone will slow the onslaught of cold, but it won’t take it away. For that, I have to find fire. Borrowing from a system in the main game, a campfire is also the place to craft and spend experience points, but campfire spots are few and far between: often enough, I huddle around a flaming barrel or an old stove, giving me strength enough to push on even if I haven’t had the opportunity to build new toys.



 

There’s no fast travel and no map. Intuition, memory and luck are all I have to go on as I scour the landscape for resources and treasure. It’s a swirling, whirling snowstorm out there: I have no idea what’s more than a few feet in front of me. Even the divisive ‘Survival Mode’ vision toggle, used in the main game to identify items of interest and potential puzzle solutions for the uncurious, here becomes more of a vital filtering system than a supernatural shortcut. This might be a wilderness, but it’s not a wasteland: trees and bushes are everywhere, and a tap of Q reveals which ones grow edible berries or branches suitable for kindling.

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2 hours ago, Smitty said:

 

It's very, very easy to give other options. Also, are you seriously making a 'HAVE YOU MADE  A GAME' argument in 2018? Didn't we leave all of that behind us in our teenage years?

 

There's multiple instances of journalists who've moved into development and they all say "Well that was harder than I thought, I shouldn't have been so tough on those games I smashed to bits!"

 

However this is good! Progress! Let us hear the other options to make this climb Lara, climb element much better.

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2 minutes ago, Orko said:

 

No doubt. I guess it depends how they're trying to define "survival" in the context. In this case, I believe survival simply means kill or be killed, trying not to die in the face of overwhelming odds, an army's worth of enemies and crazy traps, as opposed to survival like you might see in survival games i.e. limited resources. It makes sense within the context of the game that you have a lot of ammo, since the island is apparently full of mercenaries with guns and ammo to spare. 

 

Then every action game is a survival game. But that's not what people mean they say survival.

 

They could have made something very interesting out of making classic Tomb Raider into a survival thing in an open world. But they didn't. They made an Uncharted game with some 'survival' window-dressing.

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