Transformers: War for Cybertron (PC/PS3/X360 & NDS/Wii)

[incapable hulk]

You can have mecha that's sentient, it happens a lot in anime and manga - so the mecha definition is broader than just pilot-able robots. In this case, the designs were originally intended for the Diaclone mecha to be controlled. So the functional parameters they were built around were very much mecha. After all the main design team behind the toys are now some of the most renowned mecha designers in the world.

The original intention may have been for them to be Mecha- but once hasbro licensed them and created the transformers brand they became something else entirely.

The hasbro transformers versions of the characters were so far removed from the diaclone originals, and in the cartoons and comics they were shown to largely move and behave like scaled up humans.

Bar the obvious extras like flight, transforming and stuff. But the actual movement and fighting and all that, was very much as if the characters were just people in robot suits.

I guess the crucial difference is, its a transformers game not a diaclone game.

I wonder how intergrated the transformations will be. If it is a gears clone, its not going to allow for the sudden and complete change in game plau that occurs when going from robot mode to jet mode, for example. This was a problem in the melbourne house game, as your saying.

It will be interesting to see how the levels are designed to accomodate both methods of play.

[Harsin]

I would buy a God of War clone starring Metal Mickey.

[Mr. Gerbik]

I agree that it should be a "good" and "fun" game too but that disregarding the functional failings of games past is part of that. Surely that's painfully obvious?

My point was that a lot of people, including me, really liked the PS2 Transformers game and are hoping for more of the same. Surely that alone proves that it doesn't need to adhere to the mecha dynamics and physics as you and countless anime describe them, even if you personally don't like it that way?

[Reynard]

I thought the MH Transformers was ace.

[Cacophanus]

The original intention may have been for them to be Mecha- but once hasbro licensed them and created the transformers brand they became something else entirely.

The hasbro transformers versions of the characters were so far removed from the diaclone originals, and in the cartoons and comics they were shown to largely move and behave like scaled up humans.

Bar the obvious extras like flight, transforming and stuff. But the actual movement and fighting and all that, was very much as if the characters were just people in robot suits.

I guess the crucial difference is, its a transformers game not a diaclone game.

There are two things here; the first is that you can have fully sentient mecha in anime (Giant Gorg, Buster Machine 7, various Mortar Headds etc.) as well as partially sentient pilotable mecha (various Evas, Raideen, Rahxephon etc.) and the second is that the rules that the Diaclone mecha were built around still apply to the Transformers designs - for the simple reason that form often follows function in most mecha design (especially real robot mecha from the 80's, which Diaclone is very much a part of). Even the spin off designs used the Diaclone ruleset as a base, after all that's where the transformation functionality originated.

Ignoring the functional heritage with mecha is always a problem with these games, as the genre isn't functionally standardised as much as the FPS or TPS genres so game mechanic slip ups are magnified ten fold - as there's no standardised framework to really hide behind.

My point was that a lot of people, including me, really liked the PS2 Transformers game and are hoping for more of the same. Surely that alone proves that it doesn't to adhere to the mecha dynamics and physics as you and countless anime describe them, even if you personally don't like it that way?

I get that people like it but, truth be told, it really wasn't a lot (globally, at least). The Melbourne House game tanked financially as it only really sold half decently in the UK, with the US sales being pretty appalling if memory serves. It was the main reason why no sequels followed and why ultimately they were absorbed into Krome. Bear in mind that this was off the back of a massively well known IP as well and it received a buttload of PR on release. The fact it tanked so badly is actually quite shocking!

Compare that to the Armored Core series, a unique gaming IP that has lasted over a decade across multiple platforms. Whilst it it is hugely misunderstood critically, it still sells (more than the ZOE games I should add and a lot more than the Armada game did - globally at least).

There is a reason for the consistent success of games like Armored Core and why Transformers games falter; From Software approach mecha as machines, not people.

[Meh]

Are Evas really mecha, though?

[Cacophanus]

Are Evas really mecha, though?

Very much so, in the same sense the Archetypes in Eureka Seven form the skeletal basis of the LFO's and KLF's an organic framework has been around for years in anime (just look at Dunbine for godsake!).

[Peter St John]

There are two things here; the first is that you can have fully sentient mecha in anime (Giant Gorg, Buster Machine 7, various Mortar Heads etc.) as well as partially sentient pilotable mecha (various Evas, Raideen, Rahxephon etc.) and the second is that the rules that the Diaclone mecha were built around still apply to the Transformers designs - for the simple reason that form often follows function in most mecha design (especially real robot mecha from the 80's, which Diaclone is very much a part of). Even the spin off designs used the Diaclone ruleset as a base, after all that's where the transformation functionality originated.

All TF has in common with Diaclone is borrowing some of the molds; pretty much *all* of the fiction from the original Bob Budiansky-penned tech specs onwards points towards the 'humans in robot suits' take on the robots (probably reaching a zenith with the Furman/Wildman era of TF:UK/US in the late 80s).

[Cacophanus]

All TF has in common with Diaclone is borrowing some of the molds; pretty much *all* of the fiction from the original Bob Budiansky-penned tech specs onwards points towards the 'humans in robot suits' take on the robots (probably reaching a zenith with the Furman/Wildman era of TF:UK/US in the late 80s).

You're missing the point, the fiction was built around the toys and the designs that produced those toys was from Diaclone. The designs weren't aesthetically spurious either; as they gave function to how the mecha would operate (the transformation functionality came from Diaclone for fucks sake!).

[Peter St John]

You're missing the point, the fiction was built around the toys and the designs that produced those toys was from Diaclone. The designs weren't aesthetically spurious either; as they gave function to how the mecha would operate (the transformation functionality came from Diaclone for fucks sake!).

But that means nothing to the origins of TF fiction - Hasbro simply handed a set of designs over to Marvel and told them to come up with something. And many of the Transformers in the cartoon or comic bear no resemblance to their Diaclone or Micro Man toy (e.g. Ratchet and Bumblebee). The TF storyline is fundamentally American (and British!), not Japanese, despite the toys' origins.

[incapable hulk]

There are two things here; the first is that you can have fully sentient mecha in anime (Giant Gorg, Buster Machine 7, various Mortar Headds etc.) as well as partially sentient pilotable mecha (various Evas, Raideen, Rahxephon etc.) and the second is that the rules that the Diaclone mecha were built around still apply to the Transformers designs - for the simple reason that form often follows function in most mecha design (especially real robot mecha from the 80's, which Diaclone is very much a part of). Even the spin off designs used the Diaclone ruleset as a base, after all that's where the transformation functionality originated.

Ignoring the functional heritage with mecha is always a problem with these games, as the genre isn't functionally standardised as much as the FPS or TPS genres so game mechanic slip ups are magnified ten fold - as there's no standardised framework to really hide behind.

Fair points. However, when hasbro took the characters to america the orignal designs and intentions became almost irrelevant. Whatever intentions the original designers had were completely ignored by hasbro- and the toys were sold based on thier appearances in the cartoons and comics.

Hasbro went in a completely different direction, and the animation models/comic designs were in nearly all cases extremely different from the diaclone toys.

The toys were very much the diaclone toys in different colours- but the supporting fiction was extremely removed from that. With all the transformers essentially acting and moving like giant humans.

Thats where the games take thier cues from, and in this games case especially- the designs are extremely different from the diaclone originals. The games have all been based around the american fiction and designs- not the actual toys themselves

[SeanR]

BIG.

STOMPY.

ROBOTS!!

[Cyhwuhx]

Transformers Trivia: GI Vs War For Cybertron Developer

Well, it's something. And on-topic. For once.

[Alex W.]

You're missing the point, the fiction was built around the toys and the designs that produced those toys was from Diaclone. The designs weren't aesthetically spurious either; as they gave function to how the mecha would operate (the transformation functionality came from Diaclone for fucks sake!).

Yes, the design of the Diaclone toys follows from mecha functionality. Yes, the Transformers fiction was designed around the Diaclone toys. However the full-on mecha aspect of the Diaclone designs did not carry through to Transformers in that process, only aesthetics and transformation. Transformers depicted those characters moving and fighting as humans do, and it's perfectly fair and sensible sensible that subsequent works in that fiction continue to do so.

That's not to say that a more imaginative approach wouldn't be welcome, and it's orthogonal to the issue of properly integrating transformation into gameplay. However you're acting as though the current, humanistic approach is an affront to the series "heritage", which couldn't be further from the truth. It would be if it was set in the Diaclone fiction, but it isn't.

[memories]

People, please stop ruining this, please.

Who cares?

[Cyhwuhx]

People, please stop ruining this, please.

Who cares?

The Ghost of Thread-mas Past. Urgh, the Armada-thread was completely obliterated as if someone had nuked it. No mods to be found anywhere.

[Cacophanus]

But that means nothing to the origins of TF fiction - Hasbro simply handed a set of designs over to Marvel and told them to come up with something. And many of the Transformers in the cartoon or comic bear no resemblance to their Diaclone or Micro Man toy (e.g. Ratchet and Bumblebee). The TF storyline is fundamentally American (and British!), not Japanese, despite the toys' origins.

I'm not talking about the storyline here, that's practically irrelevant, just the designs and their innate functionality. Even if the aesthetic changes, the functional core will remain very much fixed with an IP such as this. It's prevalent in other anime as well, as older Gundam shows look aesthetically quite different to later ones (as they were made by different teams). However, the functional rules that the mobile suit designs were based upon survive within the IP itself. This is one of the main reasons the Battletech/Dougram/Macross lawsuits keep on cropping up as the issue isn't just an aesthetic/stylistic one.

I thought it was common knowledge that the whole civil war storyline originated from the USA.

The civil war came from Diaclone, as the sides were Diaclone and Waruder respectively.

Fair points. However, when hasbro took the characters to america the orignal designs and intentions became almost irrelevant. Whatever intentions the original designers had were completely ignored by hasbro- and the toys were sold based on thier appearances in the cartoons and comics.

Hasbro went in a completely different direction, and the animation models/comic designs were in nearly all cases extremely different from the diaclone toys.

The toys were very much the diaclone toys in different colours- but the supporting fiction was extremely removed from that. With all the transformers essentially acting and moving like giant humans.

Thats where the games take thier cues from, and in this games case especially- the designs are extremely different from the diaclone originals. The games have all been based around the american fiction and designs- not the actual toys themselves

Again, I'm not only talking about visuals but functionality. The IP rule set had already been laid down by Diaclone, so whilst the designs could change visually their functionality would remain pretty consistent with the original design foundation. Mecha design isn't just an aesthetic consideration you know, it's very much a functional one too.

The games are still bound by the functionality of the original Diaclone designs, if they weren't they wouldn't transform for one!

Yes, the design of the Diaclone toys follows from mecha functionality. Yes, the Transformers fiction was designed around the Diaclone toys. However the full-on mecha aspect of the Diaclone designs did not carry through to Transformers in that process, only aesthetics and transformation. Transformers depicted those characters moving and fighting as humans do, and it's perfectly fair and sensible sensible that subsequent works in that fiction continue to do so.

That's not to say that a more imaginative approach wouldn't be welcome, and it's orthogonal to the issue of properly integrating transformation into gameplay. However you're acting as though the current, humanistic approach is an affront to the series "heritage", which couldn't be further from the truth. It would be if it was set in the Diaclone fiction, but it isn't.

I'm not talking about any kind of "full-on mecha" aspect, I'm just talking about the functionality that defined the original designs and that you can't ignore that in a game (as has been in the past and resulted in shockingly shite games).

[SeanR]

so, this new transformers game then...

[Mr. Gerbik]

Can't we all just agree that the Transformers cartoon is NOT an anime and therefore they aren't Mechs or bound to the mech-rulebook and just get on with discussing the game? Who cares that the toys were originally based on some Japanese shit, that is not relevant at all considering the cartoon, and they way the Transformers were depicted in that cartoon, is what made us all (except Cacky apparently) fall in love with the franchise.

[Cacophanus]

Can't we all just agree that the Transformers cartoon is NOT an anime and therefore they aren't Mechs or bound to the mech-rulebook and just get on with discussing the game? Who cares that the toys were originally based on some Japanese shit, that is not relevant at all considering the cartoon, and they way the Transformers were depicted in that cartoon, is what made us all (except Cacky apparently) fall in love with the franchise.

Transformers is an anime as the original series' animation was undertaken in Japan by Toei Animation and Tokyo Movie Shinsha.

In any case, the designs depicted in the cartoon are based on the functionality from Diaclone, they wouldn't transform otherwise!

[Alex W.]

I'm not talking about any kind of "full-on mecha" aspect, I'm just talking about the functionality that defined the original designs and that you can't ignore that in a game (as has been in the past and resulted in shockingly shite games).

I'm not sure what functionality you're talking about here.

[Cyhwuhx]

Can't we all just agree that the Transformers cartoon is NOT an anime and therefore they aren't Mechs or bound to the mech-rulebook and just get on with discussing the game? Who cares that the toys were originally based on some Japanese shit, that is not relevant at all considering the cartoon, and they way the Transformers were depicted in that cartoon, is what made us all (except Cacky apparently) fall in love with the franchise.

If only...

[edit] How do I invoke mod-powers? I feel they are needed here to clean this mess up.

[Cacophanus]

I'm not sure what functionality you're talking about here.

They're called "transformers" for a reason you know

[Cyhwuhx]

They're called "transformers" for a reason you know

What about He-Man then?

[Alex W.]

Transformers is an anime as the original series' production and animation were undertaken in Japan by Toei Animation and Tokyo Movie Shinsha.

If you're going to call every cartoon animated in Japan an anime, you're going to get some absurdities. Toei did Spider-Man, GI Joe, D&D, Muppet Babies, and so on. Surely the fact that the character design, writing, and voice work was done in the US makes it a US cartoon.

[Alex W.]

They're called "transformers" for a reason you know

Right, so the issue is that transformation is often poorly integrated into gameplay. Which as I said, is an established problem that's obvious to everyone.

[Cacophanus]

If you're going to call every cartoon animated in Japan an anime, you're going to get some absurdities. Toei did Spider-Man, GI Joe, D&D, Muppet Babies, and so on. Surely the fact that the character design, writing, and voice work was done in the US makes it a US cartoon.

For those series, yeah, but with Transformers the mecha design and narrative originated from Diaclone (as the same people were credited in the anime).

Right, so the issue is that transformation is often poorly integrated into gameplay. Which as I said, is an established problem that's obvious to everyone.

...but that's a major part of the mecha functionality that everyone seems to be so hugely against!

Anyway, I'll bow out here as Vincent is getting worked up about me using "knowledge" in my arguments

[Cyhwuhx]

I now feel bad for making the OP...

[Alex W.]

For those series, yeah, but with Transformers the mecha design and narrative originated from Diaclone (as the same people were credited in the anime).

The narrative did not originate with Diaclone. Diaclone has its own setting that's nothing like Transformers. I'll grant that the toys were used as references for creating the cartoon's character models but it was still, essentially, a standard American show for the period with character designs that happened to be based on some Japanese action figures.

...but that's a major part of the mecha functionality that everyone seems to be so hugely against!

Nobody here is against having a Transformers game in which the Transformers transform. That was one of the big selling points for the Melborne House game, even.

[incapable hulk]

Again, I'm not only talking about visuals but functionality. The IP rule set had already been laid down by Diaclone, so whilst the designs could change visually their functionality would remain pretty consistent with the original design foundation. Mecha design isn't just an aesthetic consideration you know, it's very much a functional one too.

The games are still bound by the functionality of the original Diaclone designs, if they weren't they wouldn't transform for one!

I get that, about the functional aspect- but the only real part that was carried over was the transformation. Obviously, thats the most major of parts but wasnt it in a completely different context in diaclone?

The diaclone characters were robots controlled by people. They were nothing else but transforming robots and moved in that sort of manner.

The hasbro characters looked vastly different in animation and comic form, as well as moving and behaving completely differently. They were given all sorts characters and extra little moves (mirages ability to create holograms, rumble and frenzys arms turning into piledrivers etc) which moved them so far away from the original japanese concept.

In fact, practically the only things the hasbro cartoon characters share with the diaclone toys is the ability to transform.

They were streamlined to make them appear much more humanized in appearance (Ironhide/ratchet vs thier actual toys) and had thier own personalities.

I take your point about functionality- but it shouldnt have a dramatic effect on how the transformers move and behave in robot mode on cybertron. If its like the cartoon- it is just humans scaled up.

The transformation needs to be intergrated in a way that it feels useful and natural though, not just a "special ability"

Anyhoo, i think im going in circles on myself now!