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Love this topic.

 

I think I played the crap out of GE in both single player and multi for years.


PD was a disappointment slightly but still amazing. I would rather a remake of PD to be honest as that game was beyond the hardware while I feel GE was perfect even with the slow down. 60fps and HD wouldn’t change my view or enjoyment of GE but would with PD.


I have to concur and giggle when I hear people say GE and PD are dated . They are still beyond modern FPS in terms of design and ideas.

 

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23 minutes ago, probotector said:

Love this topic.

 

I think I played the crap out of GE in both single player and multi for years.


PD was a disappointment slightly but still amazing. I would rather a remake of PD to be honest as that game was beyond the hardware while I feel GE was perfect even with the slow down. 60fps and HD wouldn’t change my view or enjoyment of GE but would with PD.


I have to concur and giggle when I hear people say GE and PD are dated . They are still beyond modern FPS in terms of design and ideas.

 


The Perfect Dark remaster has been available on Xbox 360 for, like, 10 years. 
 

It’s spectacular. 

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9 hours ago, Fallows said:

I's an absolute fucking crime that we've only ever had GE/PD (and to a similar extent Timesplitters) representing this sub-genre/fork from standard FPS formula, before everything rapidly went to shit with checkpoint systems and regenerating health.

 

The 'rinse & repeat' aspect is what I love the most about video games. It's why I'm in the hobby, why Perfect Dark is still my favourite game of all time, and why my top10 list is so diverse. I wouldn't even class myself as a FPS fan.

I tried building a clone in Unity but it's just far too much work on my own, especially with my limited skills. I could learn and improve, but would have to do it full-time which is impossible. I'm really surprised no one else has stepped up and done the equivalent of what the BallisticNG guys did for old WipeOut. There's an active Perfect Dark modding community, but no branches into a stand-alone love letter title, thus far.

 

It's interesting to me to read this kind of desire for FPSs in the mould of Goldeneye because i feel that way for many genres or sub genres i liked in the 90s that have since disappeared, but usually no one else is bothered. I don't think it's a surprise because it'd take developers recognising it and whenever I've expected artists to understand their own quality they're driven by other things, as games are. So the Goldeneye style can only re emerge like this. In retro form. As with the recent THPS 1+2 remake, no doubt well done but you kind of think; why not just make a new game that taps into the originals style and vibe because the mechanics have proven to be the hardest things to get right with all the bad sequels so you're already half way there. It's sad it can't be justified unless you directly claw in fans through nostalgia which i think is barely there anyway with the extent of the graphical improvement. Streets of Rage 4 is another. An entire genre dead for decades and the only way it can re emerge is through a nostalgia driven sequel. Which again, is a good game, and mechanically is an improvement, but in many other ways isn't. And for me, no nostalgia. It looks too different and sounds too different.

 

Even Timesplitters by its sequel didn't understand its own quiality, or the developers just liked coming up with loads of ideas that convoluted the gameplay. It was about speed, you're running more than shooting, that's what I liked about it. You reach the end then run back with half energy dodging all the enemies. I have a fondness for games, like PS2 rockstar games, that nail the controls and gameplay even though the graphics are rough and stetchy. Not an amatuerism in terms of a hopelessness but being more punk; an understanding and love of games without the sheen and gloss.

 

Goldeneye was about movement and speed. I don't even think Perfect Dark got that. I like the objectives like everyone else, but it's more about developing the level, seeing different sides of it, the excitement of unravelling more within what you already know, if it massively slows the game down which it often did in Perfect Dark that's not worth it for me. Goldeneye was at its best when you set off an alarm and blast away dozens of guards as they burst through the door. It was at its best when you're racing through Silo measuring how many hits you can take. I spent all of Perfect Dark unsatisfied in that regard, of wanting far more shooting. I think the G5 building had moments of being overwhelmed with enemies but that was it. As you played the game you're excited about where it will take you but not neccessarily thinking about the shooting scenarios you'll face. I really think they overlooked that aspect of the game.

 

I genuinely think there's numerous genres of games that are completely dead and if they were to re emerge in a new form by an indie developer would be huge successes and make them millions. The huge sales of Braid, Limbo, Cuphead have proved that. An original game can become immediately iconic and recognised around the world. You can't say that for any other medium, for anyone bringing out an album or film or book. I don't want remakes, i want new games where people simply understand and replicate what made these games good.

 

The run and gun shooter, the side scrolling beat em up, the adventure racing game, jet ski racers, futuristic racers, kart racers that are actually interesting, isometric 2d sprite roller coaster creation, 2d rts in the command and conquer mould.

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2 hours ago, Death's Head said:

 

Yeah, definitely. Great missions. And of course there's the alternate end isn't there, where you either get in the flying saucer or, i think, escape on a bike? 

 

That's right!

 

56 minutes ago, Nick R said:

 

The other example is that you can finish the Air Base mission either by going into Air Force One through the passenger entrance (requiring you to fight a few extra enemies), or via the ladder into the cargo bay (requiring you to navigate a set of laser barriers). Which one you choose affects where you start the next mission on board Air Force One.

 

You know what, I'm just a couple of months out after completing Perfect Agent on XBLA and I never knew about this alternate route until then. I'd obviously played this game loads back in the day and even since, as well. It was a real surprise.

That's another great level, by the way.

Yeah. Pretty much all of the missions are great. The mission briefings and flavour text are top-notch as well, just like they are in Goldeneye. There's real character behind all of it.

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53 minutes ago, probotector said:

What?

 

Goddammit.

 

Not had an Xbox since packing the 360 away

 

Yep. It launched on my birthday. 17th March 2010.

Save it for when/if you get a new one. It's been given the upscale/4K treatments which I also have yet to sample.

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55 minutes ago, Loik V credern said:

Goldeneye was about movement and speed. I don't even think Perfect Dark got that. I like the objectives like everyone else, but it's more about developing the level, seeing different sides of it, the excitement of unravelling more within what you already know, if it massively slows the game down which it often did in Perfect Dark that's not worth it for me. Goldeneye was at its best when you set off an alarm and blast away dozens of guards as they burst through the door. It was at its best when you're racing through Silo measuring how many hits you can take. I spent all of Perfect Dark unsatisfied in that regard, of wanting far more shooting. I think the G5 building had moments of being overwhelmed with enemies but that was it. As you played the game you're excited about where it will take you but not neccessarily thinking about the shooting scenarios you'll face. I really think they overlooked that aspect of the game.

 

Nice post, but I'm not so sure about this part. Movement and speed is at the core of the game - timing those real-time mission intros just right so that you can set-up the enemy pathing to favourably orchestrate your run. They even give you an optional timer as part of the UI for measuring performance, specifically.

 

There are also loads of situations where the game throws scripted enemy packs at you, too. Maybe more so on Perfect Agent.

The biggest defining factor between GE and PD, for me, is the hit detection. Goldeneye is very padded - like the enemy 'actors' are all wearing flame-retardant suits. It feels great, regardless. Very spongey and meaty. Compared to Perfect Dark and its polygonal-traced hit detection which demands surgical levels of accuracy if you want to make the most out of your ammo. Unloading into heads for the speed-bag recoil physics never gets old, either.

The hit detection was the biggest hurdle for me when making the GE > PD transition.

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33 minutes ago, Fallows said:

The biggest defining factor between GE and PD, for me, is the hit detection. Goldeneye is very padded - like the enemy 'actors' are all wearing flame-retardant suits. It feels great, regardless. Very spongey and meaty. Compared to Perfect Dark and its polygonal-traced hit detection which demands surgical levels of accuracy if you want to make the most out of your ammo. Unloading into heads for the speed-bag recoil physics never gets old, either.

The hit detection was the biggest hurdle for me when making the GE > PD transition.

 

Yes, that's a great description of the difference in solidity and precision between GE and PD's hit detection. In GoldenEye, it feels like you're firing giant, chunky bullets that stop instantly on hitting an enemy, and that enemies are slightly bigger than they appear. Whereas in PD it feels like the bullets are minuscule, pixel-sized, and going through the enemies.

 

I think this difference in feel is an illusion caused by the different size of bullet hole decals and different behaviour of blood/paintball splatters, combined with the different enemy hit reactions. ("Speed-bag recoil physics" - excellent description of PD's headshots!) But the result is that it feels as if GoldenEye is chunky, like Daytona USA, but PD is sleek and precise, like Wipeout. They're both appealing, but in different ways.

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I've never noticed the differences in hit detection. The framerate issues of Perfect Dark affected my enjoyment and ease of aiming more. I can't really remember how far up the difficulty levels I went. Maybe finished it on Special Agent and got through some of Perfect Agent. Another thing was i liked shooting humans more than the reptile aliens you face. I'm going to go through it again on emulation i think eventually.

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9 minutes ago, Nick R said:

Whereas in PD it feels like the bullets are minuscule, pixel-sized, and going through the enemies.


And some absolutely do come equipped with piercing qualities. The Golden Gun equivalent DY-357 LX can shoot through thin doors and multiple enemies, as can the Callisto NTG.

Oh my, how immensely satisfying are the Magnum revolvers in PD? That delay as the chamber rotates and hammers the shot off. Glorious.

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4 hours ago, RubberJohnny said:

I'll be honest I didn't really like the structure when going back to it, I failed the missions the first time through because I could get to the end but had forgotten where the side objectives are/what to do. There are plenty of modern games that combine linear or exploratory levels with side missions - say Dishonoured, Prey and the other immersive sims, but they at least offer optional objective markers, contextual dialogue, and a map, which Goldeneye really needs with those mazelike levels.

 

It's a formula that worked really well for where most people were in the late 90s, kids with little money who could buy one game and had to play the hell out of it, so learning all the levels and where the objectives were to progress and then having to do so again on every difficulty made the game feel more substantial, but I think it would piss people off nowadays, and then they'd just look up the solution online. You can't go home again.

 

I agree some of the objectives would be considered obscure by modern standards, but then considering the ubiquity of the internet now, why is that something that was acceptable then but not now? If anything it's more of a reason to do it now - it satisfies people who work it out on their own, while anyone else can look it up if they don't want the effort.

 

The levels are all so small that a map and objective markers would be overkill. You can see all of each level in anywhere from 1 to 15 minutes - and that's not speed running times, just assuming you're moving through at a fairly basic pace. That's less time than it takes to get through cut-scenes and dialogue in many games. I suppose putting objective markers in as an option in this would mean they truly were optional as the game wasn't designed with them as a consideration, unlike everything now in which the games are 100% designed with them in mind but oh look you can turn them off and kid yourself you're having a better experience.

 

You don't have to play through it on each difficulty level, btw. If you start on Secret or 00 Agent, you can continue through the whole game on that level. It really is a short game you can finish in an afternoon's play, so the "this was only good when we were kids and had all the time in the world" thing is just laughable really considering the bloat in your average AAA game these days.

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I was browsing rllmuk once and saw myself quoted in someone's signature saying something that i never thought was stupid but apparently was. 'I think Halo is too focussed on shooting'. I actually stared at it for a few minutes confused. I just meant i want to have objectives, scenarios or solve puzzles. Still shoot aliens, but wrap it up more interestingly than just moving through a multiplayer arena with enemies dotted around. 

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I think the question of why Goldeneye difficulty scaling no longer exists is a good one but it’s not hard to figure out why games don’t use them.

 

Accessibility and the fear of users missing out on content. If you lock the full level experience only to those good enough to beat the 00 Agent difficulty then you have by design locked the majority of your players out of the game, shortening their time spent playing and overall engagement with your game.

 

I’m not saying it is bad design, more that it is incompatible with the modern approaches to accessible design. Games will at most streamline objectives at easier difficulties or scale them down in quantity, but straight up removing them is to punish those who cannot play those higher difficulties either because they lack the skill to or are physically unable.

 

The obvious work around would be a silent hill approach to difficulty where you can scale difficulty for both puzzles and combat (I know GE has options to scale enemy HP, damage etc) but that would have to be play tested heavily now before it could get out the door. It could just be the case that the design was abandoned just because of the additional resources that would have to go into implementing and testing it.

 

That’s why I think this kind of design might have faded out anyway.

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Goldeneye never locked any objectives away, you can do any of  the 00 Agent objectives on Agent and explore any of the areas, meet characters etc,  it just wouldn't count towards anything other than agent completion. So you can essentially practise and get to know a level and where to go and what to do on 00 agent with less chance of dying.

 

Timesplitters was worse for locking stuff away where you could only access areas on the hardest setting.

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On 10/02/2021 at 10:20, Fallows said:

 

It's an absolute fucking crime that we've only ever had GE/PD (and to a similar extent Timesplitters) representing this sub-genre/fork from standard FPS formula, before everything rapidly went to shit with checkpoint systems and regenerating health.

 

There was SWAT: Global Strike Team on the original Xbox which was something of an early Rllmuk darling. It had obviously used Goldeneye as a key reference point as the mechanics were incredibly similar and it used the same objectives system set in small mini missions too. I remember enjoying it immensely at the time. Probably feels very old hat these days.

 

22 hours ago, Fallows said:

 

Nothing else as extreme as that. Some levels open up locked doors and alternative routes depending on your actions during prior levels. Such as when entering Area 51, you don't want to kill the guy by the hover bike, as he will come in and open up a door on the top level for you once you're in during the next stage. Exit this door and it'll take you to a secret route which ends with a room containing the Phoenix gun - making the rest of the level relatively easy.

In fact that string of three Area 51 missions is one phenomenal piece of video game architecture. After a couple of runs you can clearly see that it was designed as one massive stage.

 

I think if you disarm guards near locked doors they will sometimes open them whilst flailing about. In the first warehouse section you get to it's possible to open up a huge multi floored area which I don't remember ever actually being part of any of the levels. No idea if that works on the update though.

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This leaked remake is great, though I question the "old graphics/new graphics" switch (at least that's what I think it is). Goldeneye never looked this blurry, did it? No matter, the new graphics look loooooovely.

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On 11/02/2021 at 08:01, Dig Dug said:

Accessibility and the fear of users missing out on content. If you lock the full level experience only to those good enough to beat the 00 Agent difficulty then you have by design locked the majority of your players out of the game, shortening their time spent playing and overall engagement with your game.

 

But Dark Souls have proved that this doesn't need to be the case!

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57 minutes ago, RipePlums said:

This leaked remake is great, though I question the "old graphics/new graphics" switch (at least that's what I think it is). Goldeneye never looked this blurry, did it? No matter, the new graphics look loooooovely.

 

I've modded my N64 with a RGB chip that cleans and boosts the signal, and then I am piping it through the OSSC upscalar to bring it up to roughly 1080p HDMI signal to play on my modern TV. If you then run the game, and switch to the remake's" N64" visuals, the remake looks MUCH clearer, and it clearly running at a much higher resolution. You wouldn't believe how bad it looks on original hardware. 

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Absolutely loving this. Was well worth getting the modded X360 for (well, this and the hundreds of XBLIG games I have).

 

I forgot how difficult the Control level is. I'm a bit stuck, even on Agent. The guards break the glass and Natalia dies each time. :(

 

But it's a fantastic game and terrible shame they never released it. The smoother framerate and improved visuals showcase how good the underlying design is/was. I'm not enjoying it because of nostalgia - I'm enjoying it because it's good.

 

Given I now have a RGH 360, have there been any other unreleased games leaked? Or older games ported to the 360 as homebrew? I remember playing Heretic and Alien vs Predator, ported from PC to the original Xbox. Anything like that for 360? Googling yields... Surprisingly little! The only homebrew game I've managed to find is a nifty four player 2D Smash bros type game using old Mario sprites.

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I completed this on 00 Agent mode on the N64, but the weird thing was I only ever played it on that difficulty. The sensible thing would have been to play the levels on an easier setting first to learn the layout etc, but no I bludgeoned my way through it on the hardest difficulty which entailed repeating each level dozens and dozens of times until it was beaten.

 

Looking back on it now I was obviously behaving like a complete dickhead, however the sense of achievement from completing each level was immense.

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4 hours ago, Sketch said:

 

 

I forgot how difficult the Control level is. I'm a bit stuck, even on Agent. The guards break the glass and Natalia dies each time. :(

 

 

 

You can tell which guards are going for you or Natalya by if they wear hats or not. I can't remember which way round it is but either guards with hats will always ignore you and go for Natalya or the other way around.

 

Another strategy is to detonate a remote mine in midair with X once thrown, also useful for taking out the three guards and two drone guns in the area with a mainframe.

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9 hours ago, Fierce Poodle said:

I completed this on 00 Agent mode on the N64, but the weird thing was I only ever played it on that difficulty. The sensible thing would have been to play the levels on an easier setting first to learn the layout etc, but no I bludgeoned my way through it on the hardest difficulty which entailed repeating each level dozens and dozens of times until it was beaten.

 

Looking back on it now I was obviously behaving like a complete dickhead, however the sense of achievement from completing each level was immense.

 

I'm playing on 00 agent in this XBLA version, because I (still) know the game like the back of my hand. But back in the N64 days I remember 00 agent being bastard hard and we had some form of competitiveness amongst friends to see who finished the game on 00 agent first.

 

Now with dual stick controls, 60fps and years of gaming experience in my pocket I find 00 agent pretty doable. Maybe I need a couple of restarts here and there, but it's not taken as much time to play through it on that difficulty this time around, I feel.

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On 11/02/2021 at 01:09, Loik V credern said:

I was browsing rllmuk once and saw myself quoted in someone's signature saying something that i never thought was stupid but apparently was. 'I think Halo is too focussed on shooting'. I actually stared at it for a few minutes confused. I just meant i want to have objectives, scenarios or solve puzzles. Still shoot aliens, but wrap it up more interestingly than just moving through a multiplayer arena with enemies dotted around. 


If you’re talking about Halo, that is a stupid comment.

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12 hours ago, RaoulSilva said:

 

You can tell which guards are going for you or Natalya by if they wear hats or not. I can't remember which way round it is but either guards with hats will always ignore you and go for Natalya or the other way around.

 

OH MY GOD. Decades later and I'm still discovering new things. Thanks for that!

 

This thread makes me regret selling my Goldeneye guide.

 

N64 magazine back in the day advertised fanzines, and one ad was for the GOLDEN FILES, costing £10. It was a home printed Goldeneye guide with hand drawn maps, walkthroughs for each difficulty, tips, trivia, etc. It was honestly better than a lot of official Prima guides - the chaps behind it clearly loved the game.

 

But I sold it when I got rid of my N64 because I thought: I will never again play Goldeneye.

 

Sure I could look up GameFaqs, but that guide was lovely. :(

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29 minutes ago, Sketch said:

This thread makes me regret selling my Goldeneye guide.

 

N64 magazine back in the day advertised fanzines, and one ad was for the GOLDEN FILES, costing £10. It was a home printed Goldeneye guide with hand drawn maps, walkthroughs for each difficulty, tips, trivia, etc. It was honestly better than a lot of official Prima guides - the chaps behind it clearly loved the game.

 

Wow, I would love to read that. I didn't have an N64 in my house so I was completely overpowered by people that did when it came to Goldeneye multiplayer sessions. I remember scouring the internet for the multiplayer maps but could never find anything useful.

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