Jump to content
IGNORED

Microsoft Kinect


Asura
 Share

Recommended Posts

oh and to be clear you are saying that if microsoft waited til end of gen then took teh 360 put it in a smaller case added natal to it as a design choice from the ground up and then sold it as a completely new "next gen" console then that would be jus tlike the wii and therefore "better"?

for the record I think Natal is a terrible idea as an add on and as a redesigned "next gen" console...

If Microsoft wants a pop at Nintendo's market then it needs to build the console from the ground up in order to target that kind of market. The technology is basically irrelevant, as long as (a) has a little bit of a step up form Wii, somewhere as a seliing point and (B) works. What matters is that you have software that appeals to that market, having interfaces that are designed for that market, having marketing that targets that market and so on. And, well, not confusing the branding simultaneously trying to go for a give-me-lots-of-buttons, Live trash talking, uber hardcore market. So yeah, shrinking everything, bundling Natal with it and giving ti a new name to take on Wii2 directly probably has a better chance of success that tacking on Natal now.

MS sells liquor, Nintendo sells baby milk. Selling baby milk flavour whiskey is not likely to be a winner.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If Microsoft wants a pop at Nintendo's market then it needs to build the console from the ground up in order to target that kind of market.

What, a bit like Nintendo did with the Wii? :quote:

It's OK for Nintendo to recycle an aging console, but not Microsoft?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What, a bit like Nintendo did with the Wii? :quote:

It's OK for Nintendo to recycle an aging console, but not Microsoft?

Yes, like Nintendo did. Rather than releasing an add-on for the Gamecube, they took the cube, bundled the add-on and renamed the whole thing. Microsoft aren't doing that, they're just releasing the add-on.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, like Nintendo did. Rather than releasing an add-on for the Gamecube, they took the cube, bundled the add-on and renamed the whole thing. Microsoft aren't doing that, they're just releasing the add-on.

both are terrible ideas for microsoft.. the casual marktet belongs to nintendo... taking uber hardcore console branding and forcing it into cutesy gf/family friendly form for the next gen is quite honestly mind bogglingly stupid.

Look at Nintendo they were hardly in the "mature" market to begin with... first party certainly consisted of cutesy family friendly fare... so when they progrressed to wii it was good fit for them market-wise they were pretty much there already!

Xbox is full of shooters, racers, violence, sports, boobs and swearing... therefore to bring out the next console and say... "Hey fuck our exsting market.. and oh you mums and dads and grandparents we arent selling gory games full of tits anymore, buy our console" would be commercial suicide

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Are they? I thought they were releasing it as a new console as well as an add-on.

I think it's just a 360/Natal Bundle.

both are terrible ideas for microsoft.. the casual marktet belongs to nintendo... taking uber hardcore console branding and forcing it into cutesy gf/family friendly form for the next gen is quite honestly mind bogglingly stupid.

Look at Nintendo they were hardly in the "mature" market to begin with... first party certainly consisted of cutesy family friendly fare... so when they progrressed to wii it was good fit for them market-wise they were pretty much there already!

Xbox is full of shooters, racers, violence, sports, boobs and swearing... therefore to bring out the next console and say... "Hey fuck our exsting market.. and oh you mums and dads and grandparents we arent selling gory games full of tits anymore, buy our console" would be commercial suicide

Totally agreed, they aren't just aiming for a market which, like a lot of crazes, it probably already close to saturated, they're risking alienating their existing following, most of whom will have had a 360 before the Wii came out and stuck with it because they aren't interested in the Wii.

Everyone but Nintendo is failing to sell Wii games, tonnes of people seem to be selling their machines (or at least this is the impression I get from the exchange and mart at work and the back of the local papers). Add to this the complete lack of compelling motion controlled games available and I just don't get what the fuck MS are doing.

I don't see why someone couldn't do both. Sony managed it with the first two Playstations

The childrens market for the original playstation wasn't something they were going for, it was a side effect of their massive success. They were very focused on marketing the PS1 to a different demographic and thei marketing and promotion reflected that, a lot like Nintendo have done over the last few years with the Wii, aiming it square at kids and casual players before any adverts for more mature games snuck out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think it's just a 360/Natal Bundle.

Totally agreed, they aren't just aiming for a market which, like a lot of crazes, it probably already close to saturated, they're risking alienating their existing following, most of whom will have had a 360 before the Wii came out and stuck with it because they aren't interested in the Wii.

Everyone but Nintendo is failing to sell Wii games, tonnes of people seem to be selling their machines (or at least this is the impression I get from the exchange and mart at work and the back of the local papers). Add to this the complete lack of compelling motion controlled games available and I just don't get what the fuck MS are doing.

The childrens market for the original playstation wasn't something they were going for, it was a side effect of their massive success. They were very focused on marketing the PS1 to a different demographic and thei marketing and promotion reflected that, a lot like Nintendo have done over the last few years with the Wii, aiming it square at kids and casual players before any adverts for more mature games snuck out.

While I think Natal looks a steaming pile, the 360 will still be the prominent home of muscles, guns and shin pads. Surely the worst that can happen (other than blowing millions up the wall) is the avid 360 gamer just won't buy it?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think it's more a case of alienating them from the next round of hardware. If MS are the morons who pounded a shitload of money into making that shitty arm spazzing camera and stupid ripoff mii's they're starting to look like an incompetant bunch of followers who just try to ripoff nintendo and fail.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What, a bit like Nintendo did with the Wii? :)

It's OK for Nintendo to recycle an aging console, but not Microsoft?

Who are you talking to? I'm saying if Microsoft really wants Natal to be a success, its best shot is doing exactly that.

But again, saying Nintendo simply recycled an "aging console" misses what Nintendo did. Beefier hardware and the machine would have been the size of the 360 and as noisy and costly. Which was likely to put off their target market, so they didn't do it. They put in a very simple interface and sold "channels" as a recognisable idea. It introduiced new ideas slowly. They developed the Miis. They put money very obviously into the controller. And given the cack attempts at motion some 3rd parties have done, Wii Sports looks even more impressive.

I don't think MS can resist the temptation to confuse all that with plays to high technology. But hell, I hope they do successfully manage to do that, just for the comedy here.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Totally agreed, they aren't just aiming for a market which, like a lot of crazes, it probably already close to saturated, they're risking alienating their existing following, most of whom will have had a 360 before the Wii came out and stuck with it because they aren't interested in the Wii.

Everyone but Nintendo is failing to sell Wii games, tonnes of people seem to be selling their machines (or at least this is the impression I get from the exchange and mart at work and the back of the local papers). Add to this the complete lack of compelling motion controlled games available and I just don't get what the fuck MS are doing.

I don't neccessarily disagree that Natal is probably a misstep for MS, but are we still at the point of describing the Wii as a craze? And according to this gamesindustry.biz article the 3rd party Wii sales accepted wisdom is misleading:

In fact, 76 games have now sold over a million copies on the Wii - of which, only 22 were first-party titles

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/third-party-puzzle-article

Link to comment
Share on other sites

From the way that Microsoft works (in that they tend to follow trends, rather than set them - and always being under heavy pressure from their shareholders) I can see them definitely trying to get into the same market as the Wii, by releasing a completely new console. I think the biggest reason why they'd want to do this is that the Xbox brand has now become synonymous with traditional gamers. No matter how much MS tries to market it to women (like those fucking awful HD movie adverts where you see the inside of some bint's vacuous head), it's still seen as a hardcore gaming product. In addition, they could (in theory) use the existing Xbox hardware to power the console- which means little development time plus they could (again, in theory) extend the lifespan of the hardware for another 3-4 years.

The trouble is, there's a few issues with them doing this... firstly, Microsoft have been very careful not to promote the "Microsoft" name in conjunction with the Xbox, because of the originally perceived bad image from the MS name. Xbox is the brand name, not Microsoft. So if they're to make a new console- what are they going to call it? If they call it Xbox Natal (or whatever) then it will confuse the marketplace- should I buy the arcade, elite or natal? And it's not going to go well with the new market they're aiming for. So what else do they call it? The "Microsoft Camera Thingy"? Again.. they've been keen to not push the MS name in the market- and are the casual gaming market really going to buy a box that says Microsoft? If they just call it the Natal- it comes with absolutely no history to it. At least with the Wii it still had Nintendo behind it, so people knew what they were really getting. And they also knew what sort of games would be coming (Mario, Zelda, Metroid etc). Natal has none of that history.

Secondly, if they do enter Nintendo's new market then I can guarantee you that this will speed up the process of the Wii 2/HD (or whatever). When Nintendo have a market cornered, they play it on their terms when it comes to new releases (like the GBA, DS etc). If MS entered it with a box squarely pushed at the Wii, I could see the release of the next Wii moving forward quite dramatically- so MS's plan of extending the Xbox hardware lifespan is basically fucked.

That's the problem when you're not the leader, Nintendo made these decisions a long time ago when going after the "blue water" market- and it's worked for them. For MS to try to get into that arena is going to be really hard. It was much easier when the Xbox entered, as the gaming market had pretty much reached the stage of "the next console release will have better graphics and 2 more buttons on the controller". MS can fit really well into that, their deep pockets and lower innovation mindset means they can release a well marketed product.

In saying all that nonsense, I think MS will just bluster ahead and do a new console, specifically aimed for the Wii market.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Xbox is the brand name, not Microsoft. So if they're to make a new console- what are they going to call it? If they call it Xbox Natal (or whatever) then it will confuse the marketplace- should I buy the arcade, elite or natal?

They could just relaunch as the Xbox Natal and do away with the arcade and elite. It's about time they had a single platform.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think they'll do it the same way the PS2 made inroads into that crowd: release an Xbox+ for the hardcore base, and then create a slimmed down, quieter and made-over version of the current console and consistently drop the price while pushing those types of social games (Singstar, Eyetoy, etc).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't neccessarily disagree that Natal is probably a misstep for MS, but are we still at the point of describing the Wii as a craze? And according to this gamesindustry.biz article the 3rd party Wii sales accepted wisdom is misleading:

That's really interesting. I guess my opionion of it as a fad is entirely based on my personal and social experience and the various anecdotes I've heard about it. Whilst I know a whole bunch of people who own Wii's, I don't know anyone who ever plays theirs or who is very positive about it. It's just my mindset I suppose, and doesn't really have a place in a sensible discussion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have a mother, two children and a wife, who is technically a mother.

The kid (his brother is too young) was surprisingly apathetic towards the Wii in general, getting bored of everything but Mario Kart after two minutes. I think he'd probably be happier with a PS3 steering wheel. He also seems far more interested in the Gamecube than the Wii. But I get the point that there's tonnes of these people out there, because there must be for the thing and the first party software to keep selling so well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That's really interesting. I guess my opionion of it as a fad is entirely based on my personal and social experience and the various anecdotes I've heard about it. Whilst I know a whole bunch of people who own Wii's, I don't know anyone who ever plays theirs or who is very positive about it. It's just my mindset I suppose, and doesn't really have a place in a sensible discussion.

You should maybe read some of the Wii threads, there's plenty of people who a) play them and B) are happy with them....

But the internet can be a strange place- it's a place where the haters shout with the loudest voices. The playas just play. So don't be a playa hater. Playa. Bro.

Word to your mother. And wife. And Children. Peace, bro. Out.

Bro

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Although the Natal hasn't got any brand identity yet and yes Nintendo have got obvious history, there were still a huge amount of the population that didn't realise it was even a Nintendo Wii or that every console since Sony joined in wasn't a Playstation.

IF they did a massive marketing push for a machine called a Natal (that can also play these cleverly picked 360 games, like Lips etc) then I can still see it working... as it basically did for Nintendo.

Knowing MS though, we'll get fucking Jedward advertising it to mirror Ant and Dec...

Either way I think we'll definitely get a 'slim' 360 for Natal, if only for the fact that it will have taken them these 4 years (or whatever it's been) to work out the over heating issues and shrink all the chips down to squeeze it into a smaller box.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Describing the Wii as a "fad" is foolish in the extreme.. there is a market for this sort of "family" gaming or whatever you want to call it and there has been ever since the industry matured beyond "kids n teen gaming" around the PS1. Part of the reason is that gamers from the start of gaming have grown up and maybe require more from games and gaming, part of the reason is technology led and part is expanding market with more user friendly technology so people who doent understand tech can join in (grandparents on Wii for example).

A proportion bought into eyetoy/buzz/singstar etc in the PS2 generation, now they all have switched to wii for obvious reasons... thats why the PS3 is a bit fucked as it used cover both the "hardcore" and "family" and now wakes up to find out that Wii has stolen "family" market and 360 is stealing part of the "hardcore" market.

I still dont think that MS can rebrand into the Wii market as its already been taken... same as it couldnt take the hardcore market last generation with Xbox because PS2 already had it...

The only way would be to come up with a "next big thing" in family-style gaming and go next gen so everyone upgrades... but I have seen no evidence that Natal is it and I struggle to think what it could be to be honest as the market wii has is less likely to upgrade to next big thing as the thing they have does what they want and has all the party games they want.

natal released as is will result in a few copies of EA ACTIVE TRAINER for NATAL being sold to gf's and wives of guys who already own a 360 and were to cheap to buy her a wii :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think a lot of this discussion works on the assumption that changing who the 360 console is aimed at would 'damage' the current core market, which is something I disagree with.

The Wii was fundamentally aimed at the casual audience, which I realised before I even got it home. Did that stop me from taking the day off and pre-ordered three consoles (one for me, and two for my work mates) the first day of launch? No! The reason I've gone off the Wii is because my hardcore wants aren't served properly. My demands for more complex and emotionally involved games are fundamentally what Nintendo are not trying to serve.

Also, although I do agree with the doubts that the hardware won't result in just 'gimmick' titles, I'd be very wary of dismissing this as some sort of minor hardware revision. In the eyes of Microsoft, this is a new console launch, with probably the biggest marketing push the 360 has had up to this moment. Also, with the correct marketing, to the uneducated eye (i.e. those who don't really understand the limitations) this is going to look like something out of science fiction and way WAY in advance of what the Wii currently achieves.

In other words: Don't speak too soon.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Also, with the correct marketing, to the uneducated eye (i.e. those who don't really understand the limitations) this is going to look like something out of science fiction and way WAY in advance of what the Wii currently achieves.

In other words: Don't speak too soon.

Yes but "correct marketing" and "microsoft" do not go hand in hand do they...

Even the PS3 marketing is better (it does everything)...

Also the Natal stuff shown so far that works is basically what the eyetoy does... I know the tech is more advanced and I know it is far cleverer, but crucially none of this has been shown working yet , all we have seen is lame eyetoy type games. Even Sony showed off some wand stuff with LPB etc etc that showed promise.

they need a fantastic real demo at E3 to show that this tech actually does something other than laggy old eyetoy stuff

Link to comment
Share on other sites

They need a fantastic real demo at E3 to show that this tech actually does something other than laggy old eyetoy stuff

To perhaps sell it the product to the rllmuk forum. To sell it to the Wii market share, they need to demo the thing to people in the format similar to that of the Wii marketing campaign (with Ant and Dec). Get that right and people will 'go spastic'.

This thing is supposed to achieve full skeletal tracking, which is a tad more impressive than an eyetoy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

They should get the woman with the breasts and the gay from the Xbox Live Channel to advertise it.

Or these

Or these

Maybe Andrew Lloyd Webber and John Barrowman to present instead, for the breasts/gay lineup?

Can you imagine the Webber's "eye-titbags" going ballistic as he spazzingly tries to hit an onscreen ball by moving his hands around. While Barrowman sucks him off to get another "gig"?

Nice.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To perhaps sell it the product to the rllmuk forum. To sell it to the Wii market share, they need to demo the thing to people in the format similar to that of the Wii marketing campaign (with Ant and Dec). Get that right and people will 'go spastic'.

This thing is supposed to achieve full skeletal tracking, which is a tad more impressive than an eyetoy.

Correct on who sells what to who... but I alreayd covered the marketing in my post... MS are shit at marketing

And YES I KNOW it does skeletal tracking .. but I havent seen a single real world demo showing that off... only the spazzing about stuff.. That was precisely my point

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Correct on who sells what to who... but I alreayd covered the marketing in my post... MS are shit at marketing

And YES I KNOW it does skeletal tracking .. but I havent seen a single real world demo showing that off... only the spazzing about stuff.. That was precisely my point

OK THEN.

My point was that, with the right marketing, it doesn't even need to work properly and even 'spazz about'. Let's face it, the Wii controller implied far more functionality than is actually achieved.

And I happen to like the 360 adverts.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Correct on who sells what to who... but I alreayd covered the marketing in my post... MS are shit at marketing

And YES I KNOW it does skeletal tracking .. but I havent seen a single real world demo showing that off... only the spazzing about stuff.. That was precisely my point

I think one of the main things that Nintendo had was a technology that actually worked. You could argue that some devs have struggled with how to implement motion control in games, but even just playing Wii Sports it made you think that you were in complete control. It was something new and exciting, but most importantly... it worked.

You can talk about skeletal tracking, gyroscopes or any of the technical crap that goes on underneath but the general public don't give a shit about any of that... they only care if it works. And no matter what MS try to say is powering Natal, if it doesn't do what it's supposed to do (which is controlling games) then it will fail. Just like the mighty PowerGlove .

I agree with you, there's been no demonstration of Natal giving that- even the recent video of Jonathan Ross made him look like a flid (although you could say that he doesn't need Natal for that). But the main point was that it also made him look like he had very little control over the game. And if you're going for the general public as a market, you'd better make sure it works.

And if MS released the Natal information as a pure spoiler for the Wand/Arc- and more importantly sales of the Wii- then it has absolutely failed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Either way I think we'll definitely get a 'slim' 360 for Natal, if only for the fact that it will have taken them these 4 years (or whatever it's been) to work out the over heating issues and shrink all the chips down to squeeze it into a smaller box.

I don't know why people are so certain about the mythical slimline X360 anytime soon, the Microsoft roadmap for their chipsets was leaked a long time ago, and they still haven't reached Valhalla yet, and I don't know whether that would safely allow a more substantially cooling restrictive case design to be implemented, as Microsoft kind of skimped on that particular part of the engineering when they were designing the box in the first place.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue. Use of this website is subject to our Privacy Policy, Terms of Use, and Guidelines.