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Banjo Tooie


choddo
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DK64 came out before Banjo Tooie, so that's the shark-jumping moment. BT is actually them starting to move away from the ridiculous apex of collectathonery that that game represents. And BT did actually streamline things down a bit - unlike BK and DK64 you're not collecting huge numbers of a few collectables, but collecting a few of a large number of types of collectables.

Ah, you're right about the sequencing; funny how the mind plays tricks, as I could have sworn DK64 was the moment I gave up on Rare. But no, it was as you say BT that came out before BK64.

Anyway, even though Tooie didn't represent quite the collectathon nightmare that DK64 did, I found both almost equally unappealing to play, to the extent that I managed to finish neither. It's just not the sheer number of collectables that's an issue (there are plenty of things to collect in BK, and I loved that): I didn't much care for the gameplay, or at least not enough to want to spread the experience over the size of the canvas that each game represented. But the collecting itself did seem far more tedious than it was in BK.

It's been so long since I last played Tooie (obviously, it's nine years) that I can't quite put my finger on why its mechanics, collecting aside, didn't appeal anywhere near as much as the original in the series which I 100%ed with little but pleasure, but it just didn't work for me. It seemed like a real trudge that lacked much of the personality and surprise of the original.

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Maybe I'm easily pleased but I adore the old-school platforming jumping and collecting mechanics of these games.

Banjo-Tooie and Donkey Kong 64 are two of my favourites from the console.

Considering they'll never come to the Virtual Console, I have no choice but to spend some money getting my N64 back in working order (I think I'm missing some leads) and start going through them all again on their original machine. Which I absolutely will take great pleasure in doing.

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It wasn't really the platforming aspect that I really loved about Banjo-Kazooie, it was the flying around and talking to inanimate objects with eyes. The hardcore platforming sections were actually the least enjoyable parts of the game (still ace though).

I've got Banjo-Tooie sitting on my 360 waiting for me to play through it for the first time. What will my reaction be? Who knows!

As for DK64, I did enjoy it mostly, but I think the point where it changed was this stupid fucking castle level where you had to walk around the outside spiralling upwards, and if you fell down it would take like 5 minutes to get back to where you were. Total fucking nightmare.

That crystal cavern level was utter bollocks as well. It may have been really late on in the game, but from those levels onwards I really loathed to play any more of it.

Also, Lanky Kong.

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Considering they'll never come to the Virtual Console

There's no reason why DK64 shouldn't appear on the Virtual Console eventually minus the Jetpac mini game since Nintendo own the rights to all the DK stuff that Rare produced.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Finished this last night - 100% and all achievements.

I didn't finish it on the N64, but for some reason I really got into it this time. It was great, and I enjoyed it a lot more than most games I play these days. There's a lot of moaning about the graphics elsewhere on the forum, but I think they're great. The gameplay is also fun (despite the backtracking, which did get a bit tedious) and I wish there was a new game like this.

I've ordered Nuts and Bolts having seen the reaction of the forum. I'm not hugely interested in building machines, which may mean the game is not for me, but I'll give it a go.

EDIT:

Canary Mary, though... So odd to have such a difficulty spike in an otherwise fairly straightforward game.

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I'm only on the second level but it's amazing how different this is to Banjo-Kazooie. The levels are massive and it's possible to wander around for ages without even a sniff of a jiggy. It also seems far more complex.

Time will tell whether I end up liking it or not, but as a sequel it's definitely not just more of the same. I suspect I'm easily pleased when it comes to Rare platformers, though, as I loved DK64 back in the day before I had the internet to tell me it was rubbish.

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I think Banjo-Tooie can be summed up as being larger & more complex than Banjo-Kazooie. Whether this appeals to you depends entirely on whether you want a more gruelling challenge than was present in BK especially in terms of patience & backtracking.

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Canary Mary, though... So odd to have such a difficulty spike in an otherwise fairly straightforward game.

Does Canary Mary appear more than once? Because I just did both her races in Glittergulch Mine first time with no problem. I just adopted the age-old technique for dealing with cheating AI: go nice and slowly all the way through the race, just keeping pace with the opposition, then accelerate wildly when you see the finishing line. Worked a treat.

I'm having far more trouble with the TNT boxes FPS section on the same level.

Anyway, I'm enjoying the second level much more than the first. It's weird though because there are clearly several bits to both levels that I'm going to have to come back to later with more abilities. Very different to B-K, that.

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I think it's still a bit of fun, but it can get very tedious at times. There are Jiggies that can take up to an hour to get because they'll have you going back and forth between worlds multiple times, which can get irritating. It's fun for a nostalgia rush, but if you're new to Banjo-Kazooie and haven't really played an N64 platformer before you probably won't enjoy it.

This is me.

I only played the first one on the N64, got it on XBLA and loved it all over again. This one is rubbish.

In the slim chance that anyone who worked on it is reading this - what the hell were you thinking?! Give me a hub world and then levels within, not hub worlds within hub worlds within hub worlds.

I'm finding it ultra tedious and it's cack compared to the original.

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BT is admittedly a patience-testing game at times, but I love it. I never finished it on the N64 because I was young and foolish. I finished the XBLA version last night, and I conclude that it's amazing. Its not conventional platforming at all. The focus isn't on making tricky jumps per se, in fact it leans towards being a puzzle game at times. Plus all the self reference and humour is a cherry on the top. If you give up based on the demo, you haven't really tasted the proper game. But you do have to commit to it, its not a play-for-ten-minutes type of game like the original is. BUY IT

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BT is admittedly a patience-testing game at times, but I love it. I never finished it on the N64 because I was young and foolish. I finished the XBLA version last night, and I conclude that it's amazing. Its not conventional platforming at all. The focus isn't on making tricky jumps per se, in fact it leans towards being a puzzle game at times. Plus all the self reference and humour is a cherry on the top. If you give up based on the demo, you haven't really tasted the proper game. But you do have to commit to it, its not a play-for-ten-minutes type of game like the original is. BUY IT

I think this is right. It's a very different game to the first one, and I can see why they felt they had to have bigger worlds, though that does create issues.

Having jiggies interlinked between levels is very clever, but it is frustrating - I like to finish one level before moving on to the next. As I say though, I understand why they did it.

Part of me would have just liked a similar game with new levels, but ultimately that wouldn't have been that much of a move forward, and presumably quite boring for the designers. You can see how they tried to keep it interesting for themselves too, and challenge themselves.

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Up to the fourth level now and it's really clicked. I'm starting to love it.

Two things stand out. Firstly, this must have been an amazing technical achievement on the N64. The levels are just so big and the game is so varied, and even without the HD graphics it must have been quite a looker. Some of the dynamic lighting is impressive even today.

Secondly, having played this, Nuts & Bolts seems to fit far better into the series than I would have expected. Although I loved N&B, it always seemed like a real departure from the original Banjo-Kazooie, but it turns out it took a lot of its cues from Tooie: big, relatively empty levels, an emphasis on challenges and mini-games, a lot of the same characters (that I had assumed were new for N&B) and even the same kind of self-referential humour. All three games now definitely seem like a progression from each other, which is really nice.

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IIRC, weren't Banjo-Kazooie's secrets

(Ice Key, Eggs)

accessible in the XBLA version for unlocking stuff in Nuts & Bolts? Does this one do the same with its secrets?

(N64 BK Cart with Ice Key in it, a rather lame way of making good on the original "interconnectivity" promise IMO)

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The Stop and Swap is elaborate. You've got one set of secrets from B-K which unlocks stuff in N&B and also stuff in B-T. Then you've got a second set of secrets in B-T which unlocks stuff in the N&B DLC as well as apparently further, unknown things, presumably in a future Banjo game. I think that's how it works anyway, though I've yet to see a proper guide to how it all hangs together.

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  • 1 month later...

Been playing this for the past week or so, and I love it just as much as I did when I played it on the N64. True, some of the back-tracking can be a pain at times, but it's no worse than, say, falling from the top of the tree in Click-Clock Wood in BK and having to climb all the way back up again.

I think the reason I like it, is that it follows the Metroidvania principle, in that there are objects and areas temptingly out of reach until you get a new ability, which gives much more impetus than just the collection aspect.

To say I completed it 100% on the N64, I'm finding that there's loads of stuff that I can't remember how to do this time around; like playing it through a hazy veneer of Alzheimers...

As for DK64, I loved that game too. The scale of the game and the number of objects to collect were never an issue for me there, though a number of the challenges were console-smashingly bastard hard (that race against the scarab beetle and Diddy's jet-pack sections being the worst offenders), and I never did manage to complete the game - I collected everything, but the bit of the final boss battle against King Krool where he turns invisible beat me every time. The bastard!

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Falling off the tree would be the player's fault though. Having to use Mumbo to bring the

alien back to life

then switch to Banjo and Kazooie to drill the ice and THEN switch again to basically repeat step one is just rubbish design.

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Finished this 100% the other week.

It's an odd one. The sense of exploration and gradual progress is ace. The character switching and utterly nonsensical tasks it gives you are awful. I needed GameFAQs 3 seperate times!

Also yeah Canary Mary almost made my arm fall off. In fact that whole level was a complete clusterfuck, nothing was signposted so you had to just keep going to wrong way then jumping off the return to the middle until you found the right way.

Also, I'm glad I'd earned the health regeneration cheat by the end, because the last boss was pretty daft and I lost loads of health.

Kind of glad I never bothered with it on the N64 now.

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I've been playing the demo. I can see as a full game it might be good once you get into it but the demo is horrible.

You just want to start playing, but you have to watch a cutscene, then wander a bit, then fight a very easy boss, then wander some more, then talk to whatsisface for ages, then talk to someone else, and THEN you can get into the first level. Every time you get a Jinjo you have to watch a cutscene. Everything is huge for no reason. Warp pads are everywhere as if that makes up for being shitly designed. Why is the inside of Mumbo's hut literally about ten times bigger than before? Pointless. Switch to Mumbo, go to the giant statue, stand on the FUCKING MUMBO PAD (just in case you were in danger of having to think for yourself), control the very slow and borin statue to kick something down, then go back to Mumbo's hut to switch to Banjo, then go back to the thing you kicked to go inside and, er, there's nothing very interesting inside.

Yuck.

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yeah the entire game's like that basically

Nah, that's rubbish.

Yes, Banjo-Tooie has a horrible opening, with an over-long intro and a dreadful first level. But later on the game really opens up. Levels like Jolly Roger's Lagoon and Grunty Industries are fantastically well-designed and it gets very tricky in places.

I played it for the first time on XBLA and loved it.

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This game really signifies that bigger isn't always better.

With the game being so vast it really loses it's pacing, which kills it for a lot of people. I suspect that on paper it looked like design genius and if you had 6 months with nothing else to play you would very much get into it. but the satisfaction/reward progress really isn't there to keep people interested when you have other things to play

Still, I would have gotten past the intro before writing it off.

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Grunty Industries is a horrible confusing mess and the backtracking is abysmal all through this game. I hate being forced to leave a level partly finished knowing you cant complete it because the Devs decided that timesinks are more important than gameplay. I guess it was a sign of the times.. :wub:

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There's one part of the game where you get to turn into

A full-size T-Rex

which is awesome until you find out its only ''proper'' use is to get past 1 door. :D

Still, it was fun to mess around with for a bit. Nothing could touch you! :angry:

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There's one part of the game where you get to turn into

A full-size T-Rex

which is awesome until you find out its only ''proper'' use is to get past 1 door. :D

Still, it was fun to mess around with for a bit. Nothing could touch you! :angry:

Yeah, there are a few bits of the game that are underutilised like this. One of the last moves you unlock is a glide move for Kazooie that could have really been used to open up the levels, but by the time you get it the game is virtually over and its only real use is for a handful of jiggies where it is specifically designed to be used.

Still, there's a lot in the game. As FishyFish says above, it's almost Metroid-like in the way new areas open up to you with new abilities, and it's very very puzzly in places. It's not as slick or as coherent as Banjo-Kazooie, but I think I enjoyed it more overall, and it's definitely the peak of a certain type of 3D platformer. No-one ever tried to do anything like this again as far as I'm aware.

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