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Controller lag in games


Dimahoo
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Is TN different at all from LCD, or is it just the same thing built differently?

It's a type of LCD.

There's a breakdown of the different types at Wikipedia but it's full of technobabble.

Short version is TN panels don't look as good as IPS panels, but respond to input much faster.

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Also, samsung monitor with 2ms refresh FTW

Nowt to do with its input lag, sadly.

Mine lags by about 40ms, which isn't noticeable in most normal games, but when timing and precision are a factor, it can be a pain. Guitar Hero is fine, as the playback is offset; but I can't use the song-creator effectively because I can't keep time with it. Similarly, Rock Band's free drumming is pointless, as my inputs are always heard late. I don't think I could ever play WiiMusic on my telly. Old-school platformers also feel a bit woolly. I miss jumps in Sonic, etc.

Modern TVs are made for TV and films, not for realtime stuff. Sadly, getting one with a good response time seems to be a minefield.

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Modern TVs are made for TV and films, not for realtime stuff. Sadly, getting one with a good response time seems to be a minefield.

Aye. There's a gorgeous-looking 50" Bravia in the games room at work, but it's awful for playing games on, which kinda defeats the purpose really. I turned off as many of the signal processing options as it would let me and it got a bit better, but it's still pretty horrendous. Cutscenes look lovely though...

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This is just another excuse for people who are shit at games.

Indeed, whoever moaned about SC5 on the DC lagging so the music cues were off was wrong, the video is out as it streams off the disc but if you go by the music (which you should be doing anyway as it's a music game) you can hit every single prompt, and I did, I had the game 100% finished within an hour and a half of sitting down and playing it on the day it was released.

:)

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Er

The original article is all about the internet latency in OnLive (which I maintained in the other thread about it, will be high and make it shit), it has nothing to do with controller-console. The Gamasutra article will be picking up on display latency. The screen pictured there is a commercial Panny plasma, which if you send it VGA will add almost 0 latency.

There's no way a normal game has 40ms of lag, if we ignore what the display adds (and Meh, all the old and some of the new Samsungs are shit awful with latency)

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It's not controller lag so much as time between when you press the button and the game responding, blending animation, moving into new actions - there was a discussion about this one a developer only board a while back and most people seem to have a 3 frame delay before things happen after you press the button. Halo for example takes longer to 'respond' to jump than any other actions but that's because of the animation they use.

Additionally studies have shown that any response under 100ms feels instantaneous to the player, above 200ms is where it starts to feel sluggish.

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Additionally studies have shown that any response under 100ms feels instantaneous to the player, above 200ms is where it starts to feel sluggish.

Try the link provided earlier (http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/8869/mouselaggn6.swf) with lag set to 80 ms and see if you think the mouse feels sluggish. Try tracing out different shapes with the mouse with 80ms lag -it feels awful. Set it back to 0 ms, and it feels so much snappier.

From playing around, I'd say anthing over 20ms is easily noticeable compared to 0 ms. Above 40 ms, and things start to get really bad. Playing a game with 80 ms of input lag would be ridiculous.

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There's no way a normal game has 40ms of lag, if we ignore what the display adds (and Meh, all the old and some of the new Samsungs are shit awful with latency)

Yeah, i thought that. A direct game that doesn't run via a server/online should be much faster, obv.

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Er

The original article is all about the internet latency in OnLive (which I maintained in the other thread about it, will be high and make it shit), it has nothing to do with controller-console. The Gamasutra article will be picking up on display latency. The screen pictured there is a commercial Panny plasma, which if you send it VGA will add almost 0 latency.

There's no way a normal game has 40ms of lag, if we ignore what the display adds (and Meh, all the old and some of the new Samsungs are shit awful with latency)

The gamasutra article was compensating for display latency (the plasma they were using added 2/60th of a second compared to a crt [two frames at 60fps], at 60fps, and the crt was producing measured results of 3/60ths when testing on the PS3 XMB, which is about as ideal as you can get in). The previous article explains at some length the things that can cause poor response times (mostly, that because of the order of operations, processing some inputs can take several iterations of the main game loop, which runs once per-frame).

All this though, just goes to show how utterly unworkable OnLive is going to be - games played locally are already right on the threshold of acceptable latency, add a round trip to a server for every input and it'll be completely unplayable.

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Try the link provided earlier (http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/8869/mouselaggn6.swf) with lag set to 80 ms and see if you think the mouse feels sluggish. Try tracing out different shapes with the mouse with 80ms lag -it feels awful. Set it back to 0 ms, and it feels so much snappier.

From playing around, I'd say anthing over 20ms is easily noticeable compared to 0 ms. Above 40 ms, and things start to get really bad. Playing a game with 80 ms of input lag would be ridiculous.

I'd argue there's a difference between using a mouse like that & most game controls.

My comments are nothing to do with on live - to me, it's completely unworkable because of the latency issues. Obviously quicker reactions are better, I'm not disputing that I'm simply stating I've read a number of things that say anything under 100ms should be instantaneous to the brain. Although, who knows what they tested for those studies. I know one dev team that locks to 10fps and counts the frames to get the latency. And from talking to some friends who do shooters they try to hit 8/60ths at most for actions. It's interesting stuff, studies say one thing, experience & feel says another.

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