The iOS gaming thread

[ZOK]

Exactly. That's why Jetpack Joyride is art: tapping the iPhone screen to make your man go up and down is nice.

[Massive Invisible Dog]

If there's one thing I'm sure we can agree on, it's that the mere fact Jetpack Joyride in some way contributed to the current state of this thread means it should definitely fuck off.

[Clipper]

Yeah lets not let this descend into the nastiness the depths the 3DS thread plumbed back to cheap as chips excellent gaming timesinks...

currently I have been playing...

Angry Vikings - hmmmmmm free but not a patch on Minigore. Nice gfx style tho and melee rather than shooty shooty twinstick

Basketball Allstars - hmmmm free but not as good as stardunk. Although MANY more modes of play for flick basketball so lots will like it.

Oh and Guardian Saga is eating up all my main gaming time right now... grindtastic 8bit jprg knockoff (mentioned previously) altho it has an onscreen dpad (good one) and I know some cackhanded spanners on here can't use them so beware

[gospvg]

+1 for Guardian Saga - I'm enjoying some old school RPG action

[Stanley]

Videogames aren't art. That's why they're not called "videoart".

Of course there's an art to making videogames. Not everything that is art has to be so explicit. Lots of great artforms were shunned to begin - movies, comics etc. a lot people don't consider Duchamp art. It's perfectly valid to view videogames as art.

[Alex W.]

Movies aren't art. That's why they're not called "arties".

Also it rhymes with farties, that's the other reason.

[ComradeTrotskii]

"Art is anything a person does that isn’t directly connected to either reproduction or survival”.

That's the stupidest thing I've ever read in my life. You are talking also about the comic strip where a female is running away from a male to increase her chances of survival? Because he wants to nail her or something? (I can't find it online right now). I'd guess that Scott McCloud knows as much about art as he does reproduction. Fuck all.

[Alex W.]

I'd guess that Scott McCloud knows as much about art as he does reproduction. Fuck all.

Don't kiss and tell, Trotskii.

Seriously, though, was it an issue with technique, or with endurance?

[ComradeTrotskii]

He never called back to let me know.

[scottcr]

iOS is like having an endless C90 of games. Loads of great stuff but you spend about 2 minutes on each game.

[Fletch]

iOS is like having an endless C90 of games. Loads of great stuff but you spend about 2 minutes on each game.

Absolute horse shit, as I recall Broken Sword took me a little bit over 2 minutes as did the sequel as did Monkey Island 1&2 etc. Sure there are some games that are mere 2 minute delights but the breadth of software means that there is something for every taste.

[Clipper]

iOS is like having an endless C90 of games. Loads of great stuff but you spend about 2 minutes on each game.

As I recall when I had C90's stuffed with games I was an impatient adolescent who wanted everything now now now. As a result I spent 2 mins on each game and I spent far more time on games I paid full price money for.

Fortunately I grew up and now when presented with , say, 100 games I can work through them and savour the really good stuff regardless of how much they cost me. So some games I have forked out £40 for and chucked them after an hour... and games I paid 59p for I have spent countless hrs on.

I feel sorry for those stuck with the attention span of the teenage pirate

[Philly]

I've spend more time on Galaxy On Fire 2, Plants vs Zombies, Monkey Island 1+2, 1000 Heroz and more recently Groove Coaster and Drawrace 2 than i've spent on the Wii the entire time i owned it.

People from the Nintendo world have so much to lose. Now, you think, because your mommy and your daddy played Mario, you know the good side of life, but you don't. You've never tasted iOS. You're … you're Scottcr, The Prince of Mario. You'd have to go a thousand threads to meet someone who didn't know your name. So don't come down here with your C90's, trying to prove something to yourself. Apple is a world you'll never understand. And you always fear … what you don't understand.

[scottcr]

I've spend more time on Galaxy On Fire 2, Plants vs Zombies, Monkey Island 1+2, 1000 Heroz and more recently Groove Coaster and Drawrace 2 than i've spent on the Wii the entire time i owned it.

People from the Nintendo world have so much to lose. Now, you think, because your mommy and your daddy played Mario, you know the good side of life, but you don't. You've never tasted iOS. You're … you're Scottcr, The Prince of Mario. You'd have to go a thousand threads to meet someone who didn't know your name. So don't come down here with your C90's, trying to prove something to yourself. Apple is a world you'll never understand. And you always fear … what you don't understand.

It's embarrassing how badly wrong you've got me....

My 'mommy and daddy' were fed on rations.

[Taurus]

My main issue is, games which are nothing more than a Skinner box with some fancy graphics have become the way to make money for (small) developers on mobile platforms.

I don't know why you would have a problem with the games when surely the very iphone itself is just a skinner box - it might look nice, but it is, essentially, just a box designed by Apple to monetise everything you do on it.

[Teeohbee]

I remember when I used to come into this thread for game recommendations.

[sir stiff_one]

My main issue is, games which are nothing more than a Skinner box with some fancy graphics have become the way to make money for (small) developers on mobile platforms. Some games are 'good games' and have reasonable IAPs but most IAPs are just like Farmvile (a skinner box) where you're paying to be able to continue playing or to shorten the length of time something takes. As a game developer I don't want to include stupid IAPs or advertising to be able to make a living out of developing games but the way things are going on mobile platforms unless you're a breakout hit charging one price for your game isn't that viable any more.

Ah the old Skinner box argument. Retarded. The majority of iOS game revenue comes from freemium now, though it's about 60/40 now. I'd imagine it'd settle at around the same percentage ratio as there are iOS platform owners to iOS platform owners that are traditional gamers. What I'm saying is that you probably aren't in any danger of losing sales to casual freemium gamers because those people want to play Smurfs and Sims social, and always have done, except you never paid any attention because they were playing plastic Tetris games and handheld crossword consoles and take a break magazines and PC games rather than actually being in the same (app) store as you.

As a game developer you don't want to include IAPs, referred to in the past as DLC. Wait, no you don't want to include stupid IAPs and cheapen your shit through shortcuts and other cynical money grubbing efforts which are in fact likely to turn off the audience you are trying to reach. Good for you, I mean it. I agree that the breakout hit thing is as it is, the iOS marketplace is a lottery. In order to have a successful game on iOS now you perhaps don't even need a good game, but if you do have a good game it may well be not enough. I bet there are a several dozen very good iOS games no one here has played or heard of. That's a risk inherent to the platform unfortunately and it's up to you as an indie game designer to be a bit more savvy about how you approach making and releasing games.

An inferior product from an inferior producer/creator can make more money than a superior one, it happens all the time across many many industries. Unless you're in a Miyamoto type position where you can dedicate your time and effort purely into the game and not worry at all about how you package and deliver and market and inform people about your product, then you need to worry about it. Even some of the makers who follow all the 'rules' and good practice are still finding they don't get the coverage etc they could. The marketplace on iOS is tough no doubt, but people are there, a lot of people and the potential upside is huge and that's one of the main reasons so many people are flocking to create games for iOS devices.

The figures in the iOS market show that freemium gamers are willing to spend money on stuff, and far more than they would up front. I believe as a game developer on iOS it's crucial you take this into account. I completely understand that you don't want to cheapen your shit, and that's cool, it's up to you to make it work well. Look at Angry Birds, that has an IAP, and in my opinion a very good example of one. It doesn't affect people who don't get it, it serves as a shortcut and functions as an entirely new way of playing through the game. Then look at Let's Golf 3, which requires you to pay money to play. This is currently seen as a very negative thing, so the reaction has been pretty crititcal, which is a shame because it's a pretty traditional videogame experience people in the past have liked and it's turned off this audience. I don't know their figures but I'd say that's a pretty poor example of IAP. I am sure lots of people in this thread can think of IAP examples which are shit, stink of piss and turn them straight off. (I find it interesting though that paying for credits to play mobile games in Japan has been pretty popular, it seems to have maybe more of a logical link with playing arcade games?)

I think by dismissing all forms of IAP you are potentially taking away opportunities for your players to express their pleasure with the game, and refusing to provide something that may even be expected. It's up to you as a game designer and maker to judge how you'll monetise your game and what you'll offer. The chance of releasing something and hoping to make money purely from sales are getting smaller and smaller. I think there will be a market for the slightly more expensive, higher quality 'purer' type game on iOS (look at Kairosoft and Cave stuff). Selling a game at 69p makes it very difficult for you to make money in a crowded marketplace. Allowing your audience to give you more money in return for stuff they want is important. It's about pitching your shit just right so that there's a mutual understanding where your players are thinking "shit yeah, I DO want to get this platinum golf club and it's only another 69p" rather than "Fuck this game you have to pay 69p for this platinum golf club". That has to be done with a good understanding of your own game and the people buying it.

I don't think small indies are finding it hard to make money because skinner boxes are stealing their lootz, I think it's because there is a combination of tough to penetrate, crowded market, inability to deal with and understand monetising their game through other methods than one time purchase, insular thinking regarding games and the game market in general, misunderstanding of what the role of indie games developer is. You need to be an entrepreneur, not just a craftsman. If you do not like that, there are even other systems I believe and programmes you can be a part of where you mutually cross promote your games so it's not all up to you to whore your shit out. But if you aren't prepared to accept the business reality and prefer to imagine that if you build something special enough the somehow people will come and you'll get lots of money and adulation and shit, you're probably going to struggle and you are minimising your chances of success. You are the chef that has created the most fantastic dish, but insists that people travel down a long country road for miles and miles in order to experience it. This kind of approach does occasionally work and is romanticised when it is, but it does require a great deal of luck. If you're making a living from indie games then it's up to you how much you leave in the lap of lady luck.

[Rev. Stuart Campbell]

Shut up, man. People just come here for game recommendations.

[ZOK]

Stiff posts a lot of sense when it comes to iPhone development, as the above demonstrates...and that science he just dropped was free.

That he's no doubt gained this insight onto the market from his background in getting people to uniquely love and find affinity with a money grabbing telephone quiz show in a market stuffed with identikit money grabbing telephone quiz shows is worth pondering, for those who like to ponder.

[Clipper]

Shut up, man. People just come here for game recommendations.

I wouldnt mind but I made a couple of recommendations on last page and its only been 40 odd posts of wibbling from the usual crowd about how shit/short/shallow/unartistic/uncontrollable/cheap/disposable* iOS games are.

And now a superb post from Sir Stiff One.

* delete where applicable.. seriously we could probably make a simple list of anti-iOS gaming arguments in a simple picklist for the cackhanded spanners on the forum

[The Bag]

Ah the old Skinner box argument. Retarded. The majority of iOS game revenue comes from freemium now, though it's about 60/40 now. I'd imagine it'd settle at around the same percentage ratio as there are iOS platform owners to iOS platform owners that are traditional gamers. What I'm saying is that you probably aren't in any danger of losing sales to casual freemium gamers because those people want to play Smurfs and Sims social, and always have done, except you never paid any attention because they were playing plastic Tetris games and handheld crossword consoles and take a break magazines and PC games rather than actually being is the same (app) store as you.

As a game developer you don't want to include IAPs, referred to in the past as DLC. Wait, no you don't want to include stupid IAPs and cheapen your shit through shortcuts and other cynical money grubbing efforts which are in fact likely to turn off the audience you are trying to reach. Good for you, I mean it. I agree that the breakout hit thing is as it is, the iOS marketplace is a lottery. In order to have a successful game on iOS now you perhaps don't even need a good game, but if you do have a good game it may well be not enough. I bet there are a several dozen very good iOS games no one here has played or heard of. That's a risk inherent to the platform unfortunately and it's up to you as an indie game designer to be a bit more savvy about how you approach making and releasing games.

An inferior product from an inferior producer/creator can make more money than a superior one, it happens all the time across many many industries. Unless you're in a Miyamoto type position where you can dedicate your time and effort purely into the game and not worry at all about how you package and deliver and market and inform people about your product, then you need to worry about it. Even some of the makers who follow all the 'rules' and good practice are still finding they don't get the coverage etc they could. The marketplace on iOS is tough no doubt, but people are there, a lot of people and the potential upside is huge and that's one of the main reasons so many people are flocking to create games for iOS devices.

The figures in the iOS market show that freemium gamers are willing to spend money on stuff, and far more than they would up front. I believe as a game developer on iOS it's crucial you take this into account. I completely understand that you don't want to cheapen your shit, and that's cool, it's up to you to make it work well. Look at Angry Birds, that has an IAP, and in my opinion a very good example of one. It doesn't affect people who don't get it, it serves as a shortcut and functions as an entirely new way of playing through the game. Then look at Let's Golf 3, which requires you to pay money to play. This is currently seen as a very negative thing, so the reaction has been pretty crititcal, which is a shame because it's a pretty traditional videogame experience people in the past have liked and it's turned off this audience. I don't know their figures but I'd say that's a pretty poor example of IAP. I am sure lots of people in this thread can think of IAP examples which are shit, stink of piss and turn them straight off. (I find it interesting though that paying for credits to play mobile games in Japan has been pretty popular, it seems to have maybe more of a logical link with playing arcade games?)

I think by dismissing all forms of IAP you are potentially taking away opportunities for your players to express their pleasure with the game, and refusing to provide something that may even be expected. It's up to you as a game designer and maker to judge how you'll monetise your game and what you'll offer. The chance of releasing something and hoping to make money purely from sales are getting smaller and smaller. I think there will be a market for the slightly more expensive, higher quality 'purer' type game on iOS (look at Kairosoft and Cave stuff). Selling a game at 69p makes it very difficult for you to make money in a crowded marketplace. Allowing your audience to give you more money in return for stuff they want is important. It's about pitching your shit just right so that there's a mutual understanding where your players are thinking "shit yeah, I DO want to get this platinum golf club and it's only another 69p" rather than "Fuck this game you have to pay 69p for this platinum golf club". That has to be done with a good understanding of your own game and the people buying it.

I don't think small indies are finding it hard to make money because skinner boxes are stealing their lootz, I think it's because there is a combination of tough to penetrate, crowded market, inability to deal with and understand monetising their game through other methods than one time purchase, insular thinking regarding games and the game market in general, misunderstanding of what the role of indie games developer is. You need to be an entrepreneur, not just a craftsman. If you do not like that, there are even other systems I believe and programmes you can be a part of where you mutually cross promote your games so it's not all up to you to whore your shit out. But if you aren't prepared to accept the business reality and prefer to imagine that if you build something special enough the somehow people will come and you'll get lots of money and adulation and shit, you're probably going to struggle and you are minimising your chances of success. You are the chef that has created the most fantastic dish, but insists that people travel down a long country road for miles and miles in order to experience it. This kind of approach does occasionally work and is romanticised when it is, but it does require a great deal of luck. If you're making a living from indie games then it's up to you how much you leave in the lap of lady luck.

Believe me I'm well aware of freemium (or whatever you want to call it) and have been watching it grow since the earl days of free MMOs and the like. It's a brilliant model for the gamer and it can be very profitable for the developer. I've no problem with IAPs that are what we would refer to as DLC on other platform, extra levels, additional modes, cosmetic things but when it gets to things like "you can only play for 10 mins a day" unless you pay for extra energy, "this will take 2 hours to grow" unless you pay then it's a line I'm not comfortable with crossing. The issue from the AAA side and most indies is they (we, although I'd like to think I was more open minded) think the type of games we make and have always made as an industry are the type of games that people should play. There is a strange thing going on in AAA dev where one the one hand you've got people decrying these games as pointless time & money sinks but at the same time trying to learn from them. It takes a certain kind of hypocrisy to praise World of Warcraft for it's addictiveness (and by association user numbers and revenue) and at the same time criticise Farmvile for the same.

Trust me I'm approaching my new life as an indie developer exploring every option, I don't subscribe to the starving artist ideal I've got rent & bills to pay. The App Store is a brutally harsh market, nothing is guaranteed success, but getting a quid here and a quid there from some users is 'better' than selling that limited number of users you've got a game once. And that's where my worry lies, where's the line? When do games get redesigned to fit this new model? We've already got a golf game that uses energy you have to buy energy to play, that seems to be accepted but what if it was a platformer where a set of levels/lives cost would that be so generally accepted? Essentially we're bringing back arcades, I'm just thinking out loud now...

Quoting a wiser man than me

non-"gamers"... there are literally billions of them and they treat games like crossword puzzles. They don't um and ah about spending a dollar here and there like our "loyal" traditional gamer user base.

Apparently this is making over a million bucks a month, cheapest IAP is $4.99:

[sir stiff_one]

Stiff posts a lot of sense when it comes to iPhone development, as the above demonstrates...and that science he just dropped was free.

That he's no doubt gained this insight onto the market from his background in getting people to uniquely love and find affinity with a money grabbing telephone quiz show in a market stuffed with identikit money grabbing telephone quiz shows is worth pondering, for those who like to ponder.

I was doing freemium online multiplayer stuff before it wasn't cool

I agree some of the stuff I know comes from QM, especially motivational hooks and leveraging people to do stuff, but also in the year or so following that I worked in interactivity and new business models and stuff. I personally happen to know a little bit about the iOS market because I find it hella interesting and I read a lot around it. I've been working in 'purer' TV mostly for the last 3 years because I thought that would be more rewarding and somehow not the cheap cousin, but in fact it is quite clueless and very insular and there are a lot of parallels with the games industry in that regard.

[Rev. Stuart Campbell]

The really scuzzy thing about Let's Golf 3 is that they've withdrawn Let's Golf and Let's Golf 2 from sale to ensure you have no choice over the pay model.

[toythatkills]

The really scuzzy thing about Let's Golf 3 is that they've withdrawn Let's Golf and Let's Golf 2 from sale to ensure you have no choice over the pay model.

You can still get Let's Golf as part of the Gameloft "sports pack," which is on sale for 69p at the moment. Comes with baseball and tennis too.

[sir stiff_one]

I'd love to discuss this further but I definitely don't want to take over this thread. I do come here for game recommendations too sometimes.

I think the pure business side of some of the iOS games tingle my money willy and I can appreciate the brilliance of well implemented hooks and stuff even if I don't like them/they are not to my personal tastes as a gamer. I read about High Noon and it sounds brilliant, albeit something I will never play except to sneak a lok behind the curtain.

I believe the gap is closing between what people are prepared to accept, perhaps more quickly than in the past too. Think about the horse armour furore back in the day. Now people demand new costumes for Streetfighter characters. Even I've bought Virtua Fighter gamer pics (and items). Look at how WoW has changed over the (many) years it's been going. It has to, and it has done because the landscape changes. Blizzard aren't stupid, their Diablo 3 auction house idea touches that money willy and gives it a shake. When they launched that flying mount you could buy, they had people queuing around the virtual block to snap that up, a truckload of people.

Anyways, back to sentence 1. I meant it! Maybe there can be a thread about this sort of thing some day. Very best of luck with the game creation to you The Bag, and to any others making stuff as a small indie.

Edit: You know who is doing mobile social/casual gaming? CAVE. Yep.

[Rev. Stuart Campbell]

You can still get Let's Golf as part of the Gameloft "sports pack," which is on sale for 69p at the moment. Comes with baseball and tennis too.

So they're scuzzy AND dumb?

[scottcr]

Crimson on the iPad seems to be really good so far...

[ZOK]

Apparently this is making over a million bucks a month, cheapest IAP is $4.99:

Wow, really? I played that for a bit then stopped, precisely because of the IAP and energy model.

[Davros sock drawer]

I'm sorry, but I love Jetpack Joyride. I don't care if it is considered the equivalent of some sort of MacDonalds happy meal. It's certainly as moreish as the best junk food, everything about It just screams "AGAIN! PLAY ME AGAIN!".

It even, if I'm not very much mistaken, has a little "1" on the icon, which is surely aimed at the part of your brain that can't resist clicking on a new message?

[Massive Invisible Dog]

I don't know where this thing about Jetpack Joyride supposedly being bad because it's "casual" has come from. I just don't like it because I don't think it's all that good.