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Demon's Souls - remake's OUT - mindful of the spoilers, please!


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I think I spent a bout 30 hours in the undead burg just faffing about and learning, this has the same vibe for me.

 

Still cant get over how utterly amazing it looks. TK is done and I got felled by the AS a couple of times, so close on the last attempt.

 

Love it

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I finished 3-1 today.

After a few goes on the boss I had her figured and absolutely wasted her.

Slightly annoying that you can’t jump to the 2nd archstone in this level and double back to the boss door for summons, but it’s not a killer.

 

Decided to level myself up as I’d been sitting on level 17 for a while. Boosted myself right up to 25 where I’ll sit for a while. I’m trying to decide where the best level to sit is for cooping bosses.

 

I didn’t realise this game had character tendency as well as world tendency. I know some people don’t like it but the more I look into it, it’s actually a really cool idea. After doing a few invasions I realised my health was way down against the normal amount but after some jolly coop it seemed to come back, which was pretty cool to see.

 

I’m trying not to be drawn into rushing through the levels, like I think I did the first time I played. I’m happy just mooching around and investigating. I picked up a mercury rapier on 3-1 so have been messing around with that to see how the poison works. There’s so much game here beyond the difficulty if you look for it, it really is an amazing launch title if you can get into it.

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What a fantastic game! I've done 1-1, 1-2, 2-1 and now at the boss of 3-1. Using a longsword with a light armour roll around type build with a bow for some range when needed. I'm amazed how much Bloodborne actually drew from this it's insane!

Spoiler


So 3-1 Wow! What a level, I've spent all day just slowly exploring and dealing with this area, it's basically Bloodborne! The brain thing, the brain suckers, Witches of Hemwick haha, I love it! There's nothing like playing through a game like this blind, the trepidation at every corner at what's coming next, the mistakes, the discoveries, oh my it's so good!

 

 

I fear my build is a bit basic though, having never really enjoyed sorcery in the other games and hearing that royal was easy mode I've gone sword and board, I think I'm about 25 or so now, so a couple of questions, can you respec, or should I just go full strength? Also where do I get the materials for making my LongSword into crushing?

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Okay I'm quite bad at this game - I'm starting off as the Royalty class and I've managed to fudge my way passed the first boss.

 

What should I be pumping my stats into if I want to make the game easier for someone who sucks at it?

 

Also, is the lock on system kinda rubbish or do I just have to get used to it? I can only seem to lock on and aim at enemies if I'm quite near them.

 

 

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38 minutes ago, Duckula said:

 

Also, is the lock on system kinda rubbish or do I just have to get used to it? I can only seem to lock on and aim at enemies if I'm quite near them.

 

 

 

Pretty sure it's like this so you can't just lock onto enemies from a million miles away and spam spells at them with no repercussion. You can buy a spell fairly early on that turns you invisible for a bit that lets you get further into lock-on range before they can see you. They will still see if you get too close though.

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46 minutes ago, Duckula said:

What should I be pumping my stats into if I want to make the game easier for someone who sucks at it?

I’m also playing Royalty and a lot of my levelling is into Magic. There’s a sword you can find early on in one world that gets buffed by your Magic score.

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The way Souls games swing from being absolutely incredible to the most frustrating, depressing experience of all time never ceases to amaze me.

 

I thought things had clicked this evening when I finally managed to get past the first boss. The boss itself was a piece of piss but I’m not ashamed to admit that the journey to get there had me questioning whether or not this was how I wanted to spend the bulk of my opening days on the PS5. 

I don’t want to use a guide for games, especially when the environments are as beautiful and rich as this, but when being even the slightest bit adventurous or lackadaisical can result in you having to do everything again I am left wondering what’s the point? Getting a moment to admire how amazing this game looks only to find myself 10 minutes later running through the same section just to get back to where I died.

 

All you guys that love Souls games, do you find the hours and hours of repeatedly twatting the same fodder, with the same attacks, along the same path, to get to that next boss for the 14th time fun? When Souls games work, they are outstanding. A thoroughly rewarding, and in this case ground breaking experience. But once again I’m in that place where I’m questioning whether or not the repeated pre-boss ‘get the long corridor of fodder out of the way yet again’ mechanic is something I can be arsed with, which makes me sad as technically and visually Demon Souls is the most impressive game I have ever played.

 

I totally get that it’s about learning sections of gameplay so you basically one life it between checkpoints. The problem is, every time I have to play through a section that I have already beaten several times, for me, it takes the shine away from that epic boss encounter or next beautiful environment that is waiting for me. Especially when after having done the long section once again, I have to then defeat a boss. So I can’t enjoy or study the boss for fear of having to play through the same monotonous section once again :)

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Run and roll past the fodder in that run back to the boss. It’s exhilarating and fun, weaving in and out of guys, stopping only to twat the one or two that you know for sure need twatting (which is knowledge gained through repeating the run). Dying doesn’t mean doing it “all” again. It means figuring out what needs done, what doesn’t, and doing “some of it” again :) 

 

I always find it amazing how these stretches of levels that initially seemed so daunting and unknown, and often took literal hours getting through the first few times, quickly become a two minute Benny Hill run to the boss, dodging and weaving flailing enemies and weapons as you go.

 

For the stretches and runs where that type of approach isn’t possible, and there are some, I just treat it as practice for gitting gud. Try parry the odd cunt here or there, circle round this guy and backstab him and so on. If I do eventually find repeating a particular run tedious, I’d just go and try somewhere else and come back later to whatever boss was giving me grief and causing the repeat runs in the first place.
 

Or if not exploring a new place in the meantime, I might just go and methodically farm souls and items, all the while becoming more and more familiar with the layout of whatever location I’m farming. This often leads to discovering hidden loot and stuff like that.

 

Mostly though I just don’t get bored of being in these games. I love how they play, I love controlling my guy, I love exploring these intricately designed spaces, and I love soaking up the atmosphere. Loving the combat goes without saying.

 

It doesn’t matter if I’m making meaningful progress, or methodically grinding or just bashing myself off a brick wall and getting nowhere. I’m still having the pleasure of manoeuvring my guy around these amazingly designed atmospheric levels, and enjoying the combat as I go. 

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But like, don’t get me wrong, I still loudly and angrily shout fuck off at these game all the time. It’s kind of like a difficult Mario level in that regard.
 

Playing through Champions Road in Super Mario 3D World and the Darker Side of the Moon in Odyssey were both quite Soulslike experiences. Every time I died at any given hurdle, I’d angrily tell the game to fuck off, yet would immediately try again :lol:


Certain obstacles and challenges in the levels that would previously fuck me up eventually became mastered, and I was able to play through them in a state of trance-like bliss - concentration, reflex and reactions seemingly in perfect harmony until the next thing killed me and I’d be all “FUCK OFF” again, until that bit eventually got mastered too.
 

Entire evenings would go into playing these levels until I finally beat them and when I did, the feeling was genuine elation. I get that exact same loop from Souls games.

 

If anyone saw or heard me play through those Mario levels or certain Souls bosses they’d probably be convinced I was going through hell playing them, when in actual fact we’re talking about some of my absolute peak fondest times gaming ever :) 

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:lol:

 

I have been doing exactly that this evening. Many, many f@ck offs have been shouted. The wife has even asked me to not play it. 

 

I forgot how rage inducing these are. It was the same for me ten years ago with the original on import. 

 

I totally get where @MardiganXis coming from and question whether I can actually be bothered to slog on at times. But then defeat a boss and learn a level and it is fantastic. Very delicate balance at times. 

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5 hours ago, MardiganX said:

...when being even the slightest bit adventurous or lackadaisical can result in you having to do everything again I am left wondering what’s the point? 

 

The excitement of the risk:reward. Do you bank what you've got, go back to the Nexus and level up or press on that bit further for the possibility of greater rewards or opening a shortcut? It's slightly different in Demon's because there are no bonfires so you're always learning a route to a boss. 

 

The game is actually all about being adventurous. I'd say if there's no risk and the game just walks you through, what's the point? Where's the adventure? 

 

 

5 hours ago, MardiganX said:

All you guys that love Souls games, do you find the hours and hours of repeatedly twatting the same fodder, with the same attacks, along the same path, to get to that next boss for the 14th time fun?

 

I'm not doing that. They're there to help you level up and get materials to upgrade your weapons to make the bosses a bit easier. At first, the area is a puzzle, but once you've worked out your route, it's a resource. "All you guys playing Mario and jumping on every single enemy's head..." Do you see where I'm going?

 

 

5 hours ago, MardiganX said:

I totally get that it’s about learning sections of gameplay so you basically one life it between checkpoints.

 

If you know your way to the boss, just go and fight the boss. You can ignore or dodge a lot of enemies, learn what you need to kill. If you're struggling, then you can kill a few more and level up. The difficulty level is entirely player-defined.

 

___

 

Even ten years after first playing Demon's, I died twice before getting to the first boss. I thought I could just hack and slash my way through because I knew it so well. Nope. Then I switched on, got in the right frame of mind and took apart the first stage and boss without taking a hit. A parrying, riposting, backstabbing unstoppable force. That's when the Souls games really sing for me. They're much closer to arcade games than RPGs in many ways. They're all about knowledge, approach and execution. When you know what to do and pull it off under constant building pressure, that feeling is pure arcade joy for me. 

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6 hours ago, MardiganX said:

All you guys that love Souls games, do you find the hours and hours of repeatedly twatting the same fodder, with the same attacks, along the same path, to get to that next boss for the 14th time fun?

So there's two things that make it bearable to me- I switch my mindset to trying to find the next shortcut, and I work out which enemies I can dodge past instead of attacking so I'm able to get to the boss in one minute instead of six.

 

1-2 is pretty bad for being extravagantly long, but if you realise you can

Spoiler

just time your runs along the top level and roll past most of the enemies

it's not too bad. I'd say it's almost deliberately set up as a lesson in how to optimise getting to a boss.

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3 hours ago, Len said:

I totally get where @MardiganXis coming from and question whether I can actually be bothered to slog on at times. But then defeat a boss and learn a level and it is fantastic. Very delicate balance at times. 


That is exactly where I was after defeating the first boss. I thought things had clicked and was like ‘right, this is going to be spectacular’... and then after having the most thrilling journey over a certain bridge in 1-2 I got one shorted by TK and it very quickly became apparent that the incredible section I had just played and the brilliant feelings it gave me where going to get chipped away at, replay after replay after fucking replay. 
 

I’m not bothered about losing and having to reclaim souls after a death. But the crushing realisation that an absolutely beautiful area and gameplay is about to get reduced to a comical mini speed run just so I can learn to fight a boss that is going to kill me multiple times... for me that tarnishes what would otherwise be one of the greatest gaming experiences there is.

 

It’s never going to happen, but stick even an optional checkpoint before bosses or an optional shortcut and the problem completely goes away. Here’s a good test for souls apostles... that section I’m referring to, if you had the option of a shortcut that got you back to the boss without the need to do your run, roll, replay technique would you use it?

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I don't understand how having to do something more than once tarnishes the game for you. As I say, it's akin to playing an arcade game, incremental mastery. It's not trying to sweep you along on the wave of a power fantasy. What's 'comical' about that? It requires an arcade mentality, not a cinematic AAA mentality. That's not an insult, I love both. 

 

Your question isn't a 'test', it's a well-worn discussion, in fact. In many areas of the Souls games, finding the shortcut back to the boss is a large part of the risk:reward mechanic. That's what I was saying earlier about the rewards for being adventurous. There are a few areas where the shortcut isn't as straightforward as 'open a door' but more often than not, there is one. That's what you're exploring for.

 

A major criticism of Dark Souls 3 (and 2, to an extent) was that bonfires were too close together or just placed right before the boss. When the cost of failure is so much lower, overcoming the obstacle or reaching the checkpoint is less rewarding. Part of the excitement and tension of a boss fight is getting there with as many resources as possible.

 

The bits that you think are great (graphics, satisfaction of getting past a section) are still there, even if you meet resistance and have to improve. 

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Trying to remember which are the worst run backs in this. Most of the early ones are easy assuming you’ve unlocked all the shortcuts in the level:
 

Spoiler

1-1 is like 50 yards and a few dreglings to dodge.

1-2 is a straight dragon run, with a few pauses and a wee scrap at the end.

2-1 is longish but you don’t need to fight anything, all easy to dodge.

2-2 is a bit of a faff with all the drops, but all the mobs are easily avoided.

3-1 is long, and requires a bit of memory, and some skilled dodging of the squids.

4-1 is the worst so far as you likely need to fight the opening skellies each time.

 

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I had my first go on this last night. Amazingly, it was also my time playing any kind of Souls game. As such, you are probably guessing I sucked.

 

I did :lol: - got to what I presume is the intended 'you should die here' point at the end of the first section and sure enough, got my arse kicked. Seem to have missed the memo on being a Royalty and have gone for Hunter, which to be fair I quite like even though the bow play is a bit... sketchy? I worked out you can't fire an arrow whilst moving, but sometimes it seemed like my character did a false draw and then wouldn't fire an arrow even if I was standing still. Didn't do it often, but the occasions it did happen caused some frantic back-rolling :)

 

The combat itself is very satisfying, isn't it? Trying to nail down the parry so I can use it more often. But it definitely benefited me once I slowed down and took each battle more carefully. The fodder enemies aren't things to throw huge amounts of concentration at, but still need to take them pretty seriously at the moment.

 

So I am not entirely sure what I need to do, but think I have a general idea; touch an archstone, head through, get to boss, kill boss, restore body and use associated souls to improve myself? In any case I am up for the challenge.

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14 minutes ago, Marlew said:

A major criticism of Dark Souls 3 (and 2, to an extent) was that bonfires were too close together or just placed right before the boss. When the cost of failure is so much lower, overcoming the obstacle or reaching the checkpoint is less rewarding. Part of the excitement and tension of a boss fight is getting there with as many resources as possible.


@Calashnikovreferenced the ‘run back’ sections as being Benny Hill moments, hence the reference to those early sword clashing, tactical, tense encounters being reduced to nothing more than exercises in getting through as quickly as possible. Even when what it takes to achieve that has you playing in a way that you wouldn’t have dreamed of doing during your early runs.

 

I have no issue replaying sections in games. My issue comes from replaying encounters where the actual gameplay that those ‘run backs’ evolve into is essentially busy work to get to the next section or boss. Maybe I am missing the point, but learning an area in a game so you can run and roll past most enemies is not my idea of ‘getting gud’.

 

On the quote, is it not possible that the very mechanic you refer to was a result of learning from several previous games. I played Dark Souls 3 and even with these apparently frequent bonfires and pre-boss checkpoints I still ended up where I am in danger of getting to with Demon Souls.

 

I want to love this game. There are moments where I do. But i don’t have it in me to spend multiple ‘run backs’ (love this term by the way) rolling and running past cunts with haunting awareness that I’m likely going to be doing it loads of times as as I learn incremental details about a boss encounter.

 

 

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7 hours ago, MardiganX said:

The way Souls games swing from being absolutely incredible to the most frustrating, depressing experience of all time never ceases to amaze me.

 

I thought things had clicked this evening when I finally managed to get past the first boss. The boss itself was a piece of piss but I’m not ashamed to admit that the journey to get there had me questioning whether or not this was how I wanted to spend the bulk of my opening days on the PS5. 

I don’t want to use a guide for games, especially when the environments are as beautiful and rich as this, but when being even the slightest bit adventurous or lackadaisical can result in you having to do everything again I am left wondering what’s the point? Getting a moment to admire how amazing this game looks only to find myself 10 minutes later running through the same section just to get back to where I died.

 

All you guys that love Souls games, do you find the hours and hours of repeatedly twatting the same fodder, with the same attacks, along the same path, to get to that next boss for the 14th time fun? When Souls games work, they are outstanding. A thoroughly rewarding, and in this case ground breaking experience. But once again I’m in that place where I’m questioning whether or not the repeated pre-boss ‘get the long corridor of fodder out of the way yet again’ mechanic is something I can be arsed with, which makes me sad as technically and visually Demon Souls is the most impressive game I have ever played.

 

I totally get that it’s about learning sections of gameplay so you basically one life it between checkpoints. The problem is, every time I have to play through a section that I have already beaten several times, for me, it takes the shine away from that epic boss encounter or next beautiful environment that is waiting for me. Especially when after having done the long section once again, I have to then defeat a boss. So I can’t enjoy or study the boss for fear of having to play through the same monotonous section once again :)

Blah blah blah get gud

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I guess in amongst all my moaning I’m asking for help boys :) I am not an impatient gamer. I just don’t want to swing from the dizzy heights of ‘this might be one of the best game ever’ to ‘please god don’t tell me I have to replay this it over and over just to get to the boss’.

 

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4 minutes ago, sid said:

Blah blah blah get gud


What is ‘get gud’ about running, rolling and avoiding most enemies? I totally get that mentality for boss encounters, more than happy to ‘get gud’ so I can defeat them. But when ‘get gud’ means avoiding confrontation to get from point A to point B as quick possible then I don’t think I’m ever going to find that enjoyable.

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It's not hard to believe that a lot of people find the runs back to the boss rooms maddening, nothing wrong with feeling that way. But personally, they are my time to decompress and clear the red mist. Get rid of the tension. If I had a bonfire right outside the boss room and could repeat a fight over and over again within seconds of dying, I'd probably end up breaking my controller, because I'd be taking the cumulative frustration of previous attemps with me into the next attempt. But that's me, I work better giving myself a bit of time to settle down. In other games, that would mean turning the machine off and coming back later to try again with a clear head. It's just that in Souls games, I get that time on the way back to the room. It honestly doesn't bother me.

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28 minutes ago, MardiganX said:


What is ‘get gud’ about running, rolling and avoiding most enemies? I totally get that mentality for boss encounters, more than happy to ‘get gud’ so I can defeat them. But when ‘get gud’ means avoiding confrontation to get from point A to point B as quick possible then I don’t think I’m ever going to find that enjoyable.

That's more of speedrunner's mentality and completely different. The git gud stuff is more about knowing what tactic to employ for what enemy. Boiled down to its essentials for me it comes down to: treat every enemy with respect.

 

Sounds stupid, but I can't count the number of times I've treated an enemy as a lowly mob and got skewered as a result. (Hell, yesterday I thought I'd quickly run through 3-1 to get to the boss after an unfortunate first encounter, only to get zapped into oblivion a few meters in.) Souls-games want you to take them seriously. That's it. The rinse-and-repeat nature of death is essential to that. And showing my age here a bit, but I do get the idea that arcade and 8-bit players are more tolerant of redoing sections. If you're more used to checkpoints this is going to be rough.

 

I did a quick playthrough of Mega Man IV last evening, and in a certain way it reminded me exactly of what I love about Demon's Souls. The latter is just slow-paced about it and gives you the option of levelling up. But essentially it comes down to the same pattern-solving.

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