Official Mixed Martial Arts Thread

[dogsout]

2 hours ago, Orion said:

She sacked of Tito as her manager years ago angel. If he is talking shit about her now that might have something to do with it. I don't trust anything Tito says about himself let alone anyone else.

 

I used to think she could make 135 then that video showed up of her in the week of the 140 cut and she looked half dead. Its nuts people still think she can just diet to 135 safely. It is possible I guess, I mean you could try and make Jon Jones cut to 155 if you wanted. It might kill him though.

 

Plus the UFC and state athletic commissions are trying to get away from these crazy cuts. The IV rehydration ban, changing the weighing in times etc.

 

Dieting and cutting are two completely different things, though. The cut was so bad for her because she refuses to diet. I don't have the energy to keep repeating the same thing so I'll stop after this. Jon Jones is not a good comparison. McGregor is. She's an inch shorter than him, and claims her walk around weight is roughly 10lbs higher than his. To try and cut 30lbs - I seriously doubt that figure to be honest but that's what she has claimed - is fucking stupid. If you have ever done a weight cut yourself you would know just how crazy and pointless an endeavour that is. 

 

The point is she needs to adjust her walk around weight over a proper period of time so that she can safely cut to make weight. Or she should just carry on dominating the extremely limited talent pool available at 145, and eating pizza. But she needs to stop trying to manipulate everyone into believing that the girls competing at 135 are cowards for not wanting to fuck with their weight and fight up a division. Holly is only doing it because she is on a bad run and is getting on a bit now. 

[angel]

Just now, Tofu said:

Did anybody really expect a different result? I love Dan but come on, he can't even stand up straight or move his neck. I felt so bad for him when I heard he was gonna grapple Jon.

 

of course, my main point was JJ looked massive.

[Orion]

14 minutes ago, dogsout said:

 

Dieting and cutting are two completely different things, though. The cut was so bad for her because she refuses to diet. I don't have the energy to keep repeating the same thing so I'll stop after this. Jon Jones is not a good comparison. McGregor is. She's an inch shorter than him, and claims her walk around weight is roughly 20lbs higher than his. To try and cut 40lbs - I seriously doubt that figure to be honest but that's what she has claimed - is fucking stupid. If you have ever done a weight cut yourself you would know just how crazy and pointless an endeavour that is. 

 

The point is she needs to adjust her walk around weight over a proper period of time so that she can safely cut to make weight. Or she should just carry on dominating the extremely limited talent pool available at 145, and eating pizza. But she needs to stop trying to manipulate everyone into believing that the girls competing at 135 are cowards for not wanting to fuck with their weight and fight up a division. Holly is only doing it because she is on a bad run and is getting on a bit now. 

 

Height has nothing to do with this. Daniel Cormier is two inches shorter than Nate Diaz. He fights in a weight class 50 pounds higher. I'm sure he could make 155 if you put him on a diet for a year. It might destroy him as a fighter though, he would have to change his whole style. You want Cyborg to do the same thing.

[Tofu]

40 minutes ago, angel said:

 

of course, my main point was JJ looked massive.

Sorry mate, anyway would love to see Jon vs Werdum.

[dogsout]

Jesus, that's such a strawman. So Cyborg is thicker than Conor, yeah? Cormier absolutely could diet down to a lower weight than he fights at, yeah. He's pretty soft around the middle. He doesn't need to though because he competes in a meaningful weight class. Imagine him calling out the middleweights for not wanting to go up to his weight. 

 

Anyway. No, that's not what I want her to do. I want her to shut her mouth, stop playing the victim, and stop calling out smaller fighters. 

[Orion]

So she is not allowed to talk about say Ronda who has fought at 150 before but Ronda can chat shit all day about her. Seems fair.

 

She is trying to hype fights so she is calling out the biggest names, the UFC didn't even have a division for her size so everyone she called out was going to be smaller than her.  Plus you may hate it but her moaning has worked and got the UFC to create a whole new weight class.

 

If she wins the title I expect she will carry on trash talking btw.

 

 

[dogsout]

Yeah, she can carry on saying it. And she'll continue to look a cunt for doing so. It cracks me up that so many people call Ronda entitled but are quick to jump to Cyborg's defence. 

 

And they didn't have a division at her weight class because the talent pool at said weight class is ridiculously shallow. They have managed to tempt a 135'er on a two fight losing streak up to fight for the  belt. Says it all. 

[schmojo]

Dogsout talking some excellently presumptuous shit there. 

 

There's enough money in the 135lb division to dwarf her career earnings to  date and retire wealthy, and you think pride and stubbornness is preventing her going for it? Or fear? Who's given her a single thing to be afraid of? 

 

Good grief, you'll be saying that Cormier couldn't make amateur wrestling weight because he's a lazy fanny next. 

[dogsout]

7 minutes ago, schmojo said:

Dogsout talking some excellently presumptuous shit there. 

 

First of all, less of that. If you want to debate, keep it clean. 

[dogsout]

13 minutes ago, schmojo said:

There's enough money in the 135lb division to dwarf her career earnings to  date and retire wealthy, and you think pride and stubbornness is preventing her going for it? Or fear? Who's given her a single thing to be afraid of? 

 

Oh yeah, I forgot. She's so much better than everyone else and she hits like a man, etc. Let's not pay any attention to the quality of her opposition or the fact that she stands square on and just uses her size advantage to club and maul her way to victory. She's crude. She's just big. 

[schmojo]

Sorry, I'll use your parlance of saying Cyborg 'sounds like a cunt' instead, you big ol' class act,  you. 

 

I can only recommend watching enough of the sport over the last decade to realise that she's visibly the most dominant fighter that her gender has ever seen in the sport. 

 

She's beaten champions, and made them look bad. 

 

If she could make 135lbs, I have little doubt that she'd have fans like you saying that everyone she beat was never any good. For those quarters, dominant champions always suffer from... being too dominant. 

 

 

 

[dogsout]

Just now, schmojo said:

Sorry, I'll use your parlance of saying Cyborg 'sounds like a cunt' instead, you big ol' class act,  you. 

 

I can only recommend watching enough of the sport over the last decade to realise that she's visibly the most dominant fighter that her gender has ever seen in the sport. 

 

She's beaten champions, and made them look bad. 

 

If she could make 135lbs, I have little doubt that she'd have fans like you saying that everyone she beat was never any good. For those quarters, dominant champions always suffer from... being too dominant. 

 

 

 

 

Seriously, just stop trying to talk down to people in here. It's tiresome how you turn super fan mode on whenever someone disagrees with you about anything. Believe it or not, I've watched her fight, I actually referenced that in one of my earlier posts where I was talking about her missing weight against Akano. I'm just not convinced by her skillset and opposition. And her manipulative attitude rubs me up the wrong way. Much like Aldo's, actually. 

[dogsout]

6 minutes ago, schmojo said:

If she could make 135lbs, I have little doubt that she'd have fans like you saying that everyone she beat was never any good. For those quarters, dominant champions always suffer from... being too dominant. 

 

 

 

 

Well, that kind of is how I feel, I guess. Sort of. It's more that I don't know how good she is because so many of her opponents have had to eat up to her weight in order to fight her. I think her career is a bit of a freak show, really. It's not like she's gone into a stacked division and just cleaned it out. Which is how it seems some people are trying to dress it up. 

[schmojo]

I don't think there's anyone she could beat to validate herself in your eyes. 

 

Wouldn't she just be the bigger, stronger thug you're portraying her as if she managed to make the cut? Just a bully, rather than a BJJ black belt with lethal combinations and more effective MMA striking than world boxing champ Holm? 

 

[dogsout]

No. If she betters Holm on the feet, I'll give her props for it. I would actually be surprised if that were to happen although who knows how Holly will cope with the extra weight. 

 

And I'm not portraying her as a thug. Calm down.

 

Also, I didn't realise she was a black belt. I thought she was a purple belt, not that it matters... 

[schmojo]

Zero credit for actual skill and just talking about her 'clubbing' opposition due to her size? Not a whole lot of reading between the lines needed there...

 

If the only way you can give her spotless career any credit is to demonstrate striking dominance over the best-qualified striker in the sport, you're stacking the deck as hard against her as you can. Which means that you just don't want to give her any credit.

 

Which is fine, but it's not exactly objective.

 

 

[Doomguy]

8 hours ago, dogsout said:

I just don't get the hype for Cyborg. Who has she beaten that is worth a damn? She's just as manipulative as the UFC, by the way. It's really simple: diet down over time and fight the smaller girls, or don't. All of the poor me stuff got really tiresome really fast. 

 

Gina Carrano and marloes Coenen are cyborgs two best wins. Gina destroyed everyone up until that point, Marloes had won just about every belt other than the one Cyborg held. 

 

This is why Ronda (wisely) didn't want any part of cyborg. 

 

Regarding Holloway, I'm not sure. Swollen ankles are like 2 to 3 weeks to recover normally. By the time the fight comes round he'd have had 3 months recovery time. 

 

Doesn't look that bad tbh. 

 

 

[dogsout]

2 hours ago, schmojo said:

Zero credit for actual skill and just talking about her 'clubbing' opposition due to her size? Not a whole lot of reading between the lines needed there...

 

If the only way you can give her spotless career any credit is to demonstrate striking dominance over the best-qualified striker in the sport, you're stacking the deck as hard against her as you can. Which means that you just don't want to give her any credit.

 

Which is fine, but it's not exactly objective.

 

 

 

You say I don't give her any credit. Let me just remind you that you are calling her the GOAT. I'm just saying I'm not convinced yet and she'd need some wins over top opposition for me to agree. That's it. I'm not saying she isn't good. She clearly is. I just don't know how good she is yet because the opposition hasn't been great. I haven't seen this elite level striking from her you speak of. I see power and size. I don't see her timing anyone and using angles. I see her standing square on and slugging away. 

 

I haven't seen all of her fights, by the way, so maybe I've missed something amazing that you have seen. But I've seen a fair few and that's the opinion I've been left with. 

[dogsout]

Coenen was a 135'er that moved up to fight her and then promptly went back down, no? This is part of my argument against the quality of opposition. 

 

Also the Carano fight was before she was busted for juicing, wasn't it? That's not what I'd call a spotless career, at all. 

[Tofu]

1 hour ago, dogsout said:

 

You say I don't give her any credit. Let me just remind you that you are calling her the GOAT. I'm just saying I'm not convinced yet and she'd need some wins over top opposition from me to agree. That's it. I'm not saying she isn't good. She clearly is. I just don't know how good she is yet because the opposition hasn't been great. I haven't seen this elite level striking from her you speak of. I see power and size. I don't see her timing anyone and using angles. I see her standing square on and slugging away. 

 

I haven't seen all of her fights, by the way, so maybe I've missed something amazing that you have seen. But I've seen a fair few and that's the opinion I've been left with. 

 

Agree, Cyborg has great power but she throws big looping punches in a division with astronomically less talent than the woman's bantamweight division. It's her chin and striking power has kept allowing her to get away with and keep winning.

[Orion]

You sound rather like a sherdog hater dogsout. "She needs to prove to it to me......" thats what they all say about everyone. Plus you seem oddly mad that she trash talks. She needs to "Shut her mouth...".

 

 

 

[schmojo]

8 hours ago, dogsout said:

Coenen was a 135'er that moved up to fight her and then promptly went back down, no? This is part of my argument against the quality of opposition. 

 

Also the Carano fight was before she was busted for juicing, wasn't it? That's not what I'd call a spotless career, at all. 

 

I can't actually find any records of the weight Coenen fought at prior to taking on Cyborg for the 145lb belt, but she did drop straight afterwards. She's fought for two titles at 145lbs and won one at 135lb. 

 

There is definitely a question mark about the quality of talent at 145lb (and 135lb, if we're being honest about the last year), but it's the best available, and what isn't in question is Cyborg's place amongst them. Yes, her Chute Boxe-style 'eat one to throw one' style is a bit old school for the men's game, but so is Rousey's dominant judo. The game is still very much evolving.

 

You can cut this all much shorter by simply answering: who is, or has been, better at 145lb?

 

 

[dogsout]

9 hours ago, Orion said:

You sound rather like a sherdog hater dogsout. "She needs to prove to it to me......" thats what they all say about everyone. Plus you seem oddly mad that she trash talks. She needs to "Shut her mouth...".

 

 

 

 

And you sound like a sherdog white knight.

 

Of course she needs to prove it. This is a GOAT discussion! I've provided my reasons for doubting her many times. And it's not the trash talking that bothers me, it's the manipulative way she moans about the weight cuts. 

[dogsout]

13 hours ago, schmojo said:

 

I can't actually find any records of the weight Coenen fought at prior to taking on Cyborg for the 145lb belt, but she did drop straight afterwards. She's fought for two titles at 145lbs and won one at 135lb. 

 

There is definitely a question mark about the quality of talent at 145lb (and 135lb, if we're being honest about the last year), but it's the best available, and what isn't in question is Cyborg's place amongst them. Yes, her Chute Boxe-style 'eat one to throw one' style is a bit old school for the men's game, but so is Rousey's dominant judo. The game is still very much evolving.

 

You can cut this all much shorter by simply answering: who is, or has been, better at 145lb?

 

 

 

I'm not disputing that she is the best at 145. I'm just saying it's hard to really know how good she is because the competition is weak. And, you know, if she's so good why did she need to juice? 

[schmojo]

Short answer: better than everyone else to date.

 

It's like proving a negative - I'm a huge Fedor fan, but how can we know how good he really was? Sure, he was facing the best in the world at the time, but they weren't all that good, speaking with the benefit of hindsight. A lot of one-trick pony heavyweights. Hell, we even get those fighting at a high level now.

 

We can't, so at some point we have to bite the bullet and commit to what we can say: maybe not the best there'll ever be, but the best of their era. And her era is all of WMMA so far.

[dogsout]

We're just going to go round and round in circles.

[angel]

She's been flagged by USADA

[Tofu]

14 minutes ago, angel said:

She's been flagged by USADA

Well knock me over with a fucking feather.

 

What is your bet on the excuse? I am gonna go with the standard tainted supplement line

[Doomguy]

*starts to support and sympathise with cyborg a bit*

 

*she instantly gets popped for peds again*

 

 

 

 

 

 

[angel]

37 minutes ago, Tofu said:

Well knock me over with a fucking feather.

 

What is your bet on the excuse? I am gonna go with the standard tainted supplement line

 

Every comment section on it is rammed with dick pill jokes.