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Three words for those people who think The Wire is the best show ever.


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"The Organization of Cartographers for Social Equality".

Awesome. CJ makes a comment later in that episode along the lines of "I don't even know where Canada is any more". This thread is making me want to watch old episodes again when I should be finishing off seasons six and seven.

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I didn't watch it again after S5, this post summed it up for me from 4 years ago...

The new episodes are terrible, it has not so much gone downhill as completely driven off a cliff over a shark infested lagoon.

Pretty much spolier free...

- The dialogue isn't there anymore.

- Characters such as Ainsley and Josh's girlfriend have completely disappeared with little or no explaination.

- Every episode seems to feature the war room.

- Special guest stars have included Elmo and Big Bird from the Muppets.

- Charlie now gets two lines per episode, one of which will always be "The President will see you now", and again at the end of every episode when he tells the President he has done a good job.

- Will Bailey now gets one line per episode, which is always "I am better than you Toby"

- Flashback after flashback after flashback within flashback.

- It is now a soap opera, with "will or wont Josh and Donna ever admit their feelings for each other" as the main story.

- The pacing has changed, now everything happens too quickly.

The three worst episodes?

(These are pretty much unmissable as they show how far the show has fallen)

- Leo in 'Nam.

- The Gaza Episode, manged to portray both sides as sympathetic, and both sides as violent racists - way to take a stand team!

- The CJ documentary.

The Wire held its quality across its entire run therefore The Wire wins. And no-one in The West Wing was ever as cool as McNulty.

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- Every episode seems to feature the war room.

Yep. Don't like this. Seasons 1-2, basically all the pre-9/11 storylines, seemed to have 'nicer' storylines. Even when there was a coup in Africa or whatnot, it was packaged in such a way as to not feel like you were watching a military show.

- Will Bailey now gets one line per episode, which is always "I am better than you Toby"

Nah, he has plenty of dialogue. His storyline in the show as a whole is actually pretty good, conflicted about his boss and all that. The episodes where he first comes into the west wing and wars with Toby, I think end of season four to mid season 5, are great - especially in the lockdown episode where he gets stuck in a room with toby.

- Flashback after flashback after flashback within flashback.

Yep. I think every one in season five was unnecessary. I really dislike it when they show something happening in the opening pre-credits sequence, and then say '24 hours earlier' at the start of act one. Especially Donna's one at the start of Gaza.

- The Gaza Episode, manged to portray both sides as sympathetic, and both sides as violent racists - way to take a stand team!

That's not fair. I thought the whole Middle-East arc was well handled. The problem was that it wasn't really that inspiring or touching. The Leo storyline in those episodes wasn't too convincing, or done too well. Oh and, yet more unneccessary flashbacks.

Not to say that season five was bad. It just didn't live up to the giddy heights of Sorkin's episodes due to some silly mistakes (too many flashbacks and war room guff). The blonde NSA woman, forgot her name, she's constantly serious even though she talks in a nice relaxed voice. She needed to be funnier or wittier. Of course, then people would say that every character spoke the same way. Here's how I'd rate em (Edge ratings):

Season 1 - 10/10

Season 2 - 10/10

Season 3 - 9/10

Season 4 - 9/10

Season 5 - 8/10

Season 6 - 9/10

Season 7 - 9/10 (been a while since I seen season seven, may adjust my rating slightly after I rewatch it)

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Here's how I'd rate em (Edge ratings):

Season 1 - 10/10

Season 2 - 10/10

Season 3 - 9/10

Season 4 - 9/10

Season 5 - 8/10

Season 6 - 9/10

Season 7 - 9/10 (been a while since I seen season seven, may adjust my rating slightly after I rewatch it)

Interesting. Whilst I agree with much of what you said, I must say I rate S5 a lot lower than you do. However the guy who stopped watching at season 5 should really look at 6 and 7. They get their own feel and work much better for it.

My ranking then?

Season 1 - 10

Season 2 - 10

Season 3 - 9

Season 4 - 10

Season 5 - 6

Season 6 - 8

Season 7 - 8

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6 is too low for season 5. The average episode of CSI is about an edge 7, and season five had some great episodes: The Supremes, Han, Disaster Relief, Shutdown, President Walken stuff, the VP selection stuff, Chief Justice collapses episode, the awesome Slow News Day, Taylor Reid stuff, Joshs birthday episode, No Exit.

May lack Sorkins finesse and poetry, but there are some really juicy storylines there. Its not a 6.

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To reply more to the OP than the current line of discussion, I watched the West Wing from season 1 to about 4 I think but then lost track of it when I moved away from home. I absolutely loved it though, from the way it was filmed to the cast and the dialogue. Even from the start there was a really good chemistry with the lead roles which you don't see very often imo.

On the other hand I've tried a few times to watch The Wire and on every occasion I've found it incredibly dull. It strikes me as a very very american take on what it's like to be an american cop in what HBO thinks is the real america. I don't directly dislike it, I've just not found anything that I do actually like about it.

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To reply more to the OP than the current line of discussion, I watched the West Wing from season 1 to about 4 I think but then lost track of it when I moved away from home. I absolutely loved it though, from the way it was filmed to the cast and the dialogue. Even from the start there was a really good chemistry with the lead roles which you don't see very often imo.

On the other hand I've tried a few times to watch The Wire and on every occasion I've found it incredibly dull. It strikes me as a very very american take on what it's like to be an american cop in what HBO thinks is the real america. I don't directly dislike it, I've just not found anything that I do actually like about it.

A pretty brave man, willing to go against the grain and speak his own mind. Admirable, really.

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A pretty brave man, willing to go against the grain and speak his own mind. Admirable, really.

You should totally marry him and wank each other off over House or Criminal Minds or whatever "7/10" show's on that evening. You'd be so happy in your mediocrity.

Actually, wait... that wouldn't really be fair. Price_Hack would be there, thinking you loved him and hated The Wire because you didn't really understand it, just like he didn't, yet all the time you'd only be doing it for the lulz. You cruel, cruel bastard.

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Haha, just saw this:

Martin Sheen is a legend.

I had a West Wing dream last night. It was amazing, my subconcious had the whole storyline plotted out and everything. Josh was the only WW person in it, and it was all outdoors, but it was pure West Wing.

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You should totally marry him and wank each other off over House or Criminal Minds or whatever "7/10" show's on that evening. You'd be so happy in your mediocrity.

Actually, wait... that wouldn't really be fair. Price_Hack would be there, thinking you loved him and hated The Wire because you didn't really understand it, just like he didn't, yet all the time you'd only be doing it for the lulz. You cruel, cruel bastard.

Perhaps I didn't "understand" The Wire, but surely that's a point in itself. I didn't directly criticise anything about the show, it just didn't work for me, and as a result I found it dull. That doesn't mean I'm saying that other people can't / won't enjoy it.

I'm not really a fan of cop shows in general, I don't like 24, or CSI, or any of their ilk. I prefer character dramas like Lost and Prison Break. I wanted to give the Wire a chance because it came so highly recomended by internet folk and family members. I reached out of my comfort zone and got burned, I guess I'll go back to living my mediocre life under a 7/10 rock.

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What?

My view of those two shows in particular is that they are all about the characters. Certainly my reason for watching them is the interactions between the individuals and their reactions to whatever plot divice is driving the story in the episode. I'm fascinated by human interaction, and those shows, as well as the West Wing deliver that in bucket loads. Hence my enjoyment.

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Perhaps I didn't "understand" The Wire, but surely that's a point in itself.

I hate to say it but it's more a point about you than it is about The Wire. I mean Chase is clearly baiting the fuck out of The Wire fans here but to dismiss the show as "a very very american take on what it's like to be an american cop in what HBO thinks is the real america."? Are you sure you didn't catch an episode of Law & Order by mistake?

On a related issue I finally got round to watching the pilot of TWW. It may spoil the upcoming season for me but can someone tell me: is there an episode where the White House burns down and kills everyone that I can look forward to?

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I hate to say it but it's more a point about you than it is about The Wire.

Yes, which I went on to explain...

And I'm sure I was watching the right show. Just because my opinion is so radically different doesn't mean that I'm saying it's a bad show, it's just not one that I'm interested in, or will ever find entertaining. In my opinion, it's the most American programing I've ever watched, and not in the way that I've come to expect from other American shows. I've come to associate tight scripts and dialogue, good action, acting and clever plots layered with suspense and cliff hangers with American shows. To me watching the Wire felt like a step in the wrong direction. All the swearing was comedic, not suspensful. I felt like I was watching a deep south rednecks impression of life in the city only with extra swearing and fewer rodents.

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Fraid not.

Chase - Joined: 1-March 08

price_hack - Joined: 7-November 03

Can we not just leave it at, I like a show that you don't. And you like a show that I don't.

I'm not trying to ram my opinions down anyones throat, just voicing them in a discussion.

To be quite honest the only reason I replied was because of the nature of your reply to my post. All that's happened since I started posting in this thread is it's been implied that I'm too thick to even watch the right show, let alone understand the program in question.

Anywho, I'm done.

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On a related issue I finally got round to watching the pilot of TWW. It may spoil the upcoming season for me but can someone tell me: is there an episode where the White House burns down and kills everyone that I can look forward to?

:blink:

This is what happens when you make republicans watch the West Wing. They actually get offended by it.

I watched Freedonia yesterday. The season six campaign episodes are really something else, and the Santos/Lyman relationship is amazing. Rather than having a good vs evil relationship, the Democratic primary storylines are about good vs good vs good (be it Santos, Josh, Vinnick, Bingo Bob, Will Bailey), and the subtle differences between them all and how close they are to falling in line. Really different to anything else I've ever seen before.

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Not seen Prison Break, but Lost IS a character drama. Most of the flashbacks have little to do with the plot and are just there to build character. You're having a laugh if you think it's not.

Are all Wire fans this close-minded? Jesus. We need to bring some inspiration and joy into these peoples lives, get them to say Galileo 5 and really understand it, y'know?

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I like and watch Lost but it's not much cop as a character drama. The character development is only pushed along by the batshit mental plot happenings. They certainly weren't very deep characters to begin with, following a pattern of "Character with varying degrees of dark past and some kind of twist". They didn't feel like rounded people to me in the way that, say, the characters of Six Feet Under do. Or the characters of Mad Men. Or even the main guy off Breaking Bad.

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In a way I love Chase's trolling. It gets you all wound up and you're half way through hammering out an angry rebuttal until you remember "Hey, he just ignores all the points everyone makes and writes sly and not so sly insults instead. His statements are full of glaring factual errors. He's either doing this for the Lulz or he's really not very bright and trying to compensate for his shortcomings by going on the offensive." And then you calm down. No one's really that thick. He clearly hasn't watched any of The Wire, he just latched onto it because it had the most targets to annoy. Apart from him the world's a wonderful place full of people of taste and culture. And the bile inside subsides. Ah. Much better.

In a way it does bring joy to my life because I can now laugh at stupid comments about my supposed political beliefs and my close minded-ness. So instead of wasting my time here's an eloquent piece about why The Wire is so good from the liberal leaning, mostly democratic, supporting Slate magazine.

<a href="http://www.slate.com/id/2149566/" target="_blank">http://www.slate.com/id/2149566/</a>

And now I shall return to downloading episodes of TWW and trying to find a character I do like amongst all the smug. Perhaps Chase's attitude and incessant baiting inured me to the show's strengths so it has a few more episodes to convince me my initial appraisal was wrong. If Chase really has watched The Wire maybe he'll go back and give it another chance too. But then I doubt both that he has and that he will.

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Every character is a practically a fan fave in the West Wing. Josh, Sam, Toby, Bartlet...I don't get how you can't admire any of them. Don't let the 'network tv feel' stop you from seeing how good it is. Later seasons are filmed in a more cinematic way (as happened with most late 90s shows where the first half is well lit studio sets and basic direction and the second half is all widescreen and shaky cams). Personally, I love the nostalgic feeling of early seasons.

I've seen most of season one Wire. It was good, but not compelling enough. My problem was the most of the ensemble wasn't that entertaining to me. If the show had been about just the dealers and the junkies, it would have been easier to follow and more focused. I really didn't care about all the rungs of the police ladder. People who looked interesting initially, like that thin scary looking black police chief guy in charge, turned out to be boring.

I can see it's quality, but it's just not my thing. Liberal Politics with Soul are more compelling than Drug Dealer and Police Organisation Stuff, even if both have great writing. The West Wing more so, natch. 32 Emmys can't be wrong.

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See, now you've done it. You've strayed from opinion into why one show is statisically better than the other.

Good point, well made. I retract my 32 Emmy's remark.

It probably wasn't even 32 Emmy's anyway, I just pulled that number out of my ass!

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