GTA: constructive criticism

[Harry]

I'll give you the repetitive missions but I won't give you your excuse for dying.

All it takes is a lock on. If it's red KILL'EM! If it's green, lock on to another, find red, BRING 'EM DEATH. I didn't even need cover in that mission, found it pretty easy to be honest; I think there's two bouncers on the main floor, one in the kitchen and there's two that run out the back door. I just equipped my SMG and rampaged.

I loved most missions, the ones I didn't like were Snow Storm, "mo-ped in the park", and the last one, felt unfitting but ah well... Can't have it all right?

[scottcr]

I've just got through to the third island and I'm finding it harder and harder to get through. The city is a real achievement in terms of atmosphere, but its flaws simply become more and more apparent. Repetition, sledgehammer-subtlety, unpleasant characters, out-of-vehicle controls that feel sticky and ill-conceived. As a play environment, I don't think Liberty City is all that great a success, either. I realise this sounds overly harsh, and I did enjoy it to begin with, but not one review I've read accurately reflects the game's fairly significant problems.

I have the same problem with every GTA game - they start brilliantly and then after about 8-10 hours of play it starts to be a case of going through the motions. I'm still enjoying GTA IV - but at a very slow place. I'm glad I was told about the

boat

for the snow storm - as that mission was ridiculous.

[Great_Sage_Equal_of_Heaven]

My problem with it is although it is pretty in HD, has the best drive-by mechanics, better melee, better shoot-out/cover system, great radio stations, is that the story is fucking wank. It the most boring GTA to date and Niko is the worst protagonist. I've never fallen asleep during a cut scene before - GTA4 has hit me thrice.

I also hate the mobile-phone - shit IMO

[frogboy]

I agree, the mobile phone is too fiddly and like real mobile phones, bloody irritating.

[Chase]

The mobile phone is the tiniest darkest fiddly piece of crap ever. Who thought it'd be a good idea to have it fill 1/32th of the screen? At least let us pause the game and then use it.

[Floshenbarnical]

I don't know, I like the mobile phone and I'm used to it. I like experimenting around with numbers you see on billboards. The only thing I hate is the way it doesn't save pictures taken with the camera so all the tits I've photographed at train stations were in vain.

A couple of things were introduced that looked to be a continous thing in the game, like taking pictures of people and then searching their faces in the LCPD database but I think that only happened in about 2 missions. Another thing was taking to rooftops and using these to get around in a chase- this looked to be a fairly solid consistent theme but again that only really happened in

that Ivan mission in Broker and then when you had to kill Isaac the jew.

I was playing last night and noticed a couple of things that hacked me off. These included:

1. Buildings without fire escapes meaning that you leap onto a rooftop off another rooftop/ crash land a helicopter onto one and then have no option but to plunge inexorably to your death for your valiant efforts.

2. Objects that appear solid but evidently are hallucinations of Niko's meaning that should you step on them, once again you will fall to your doom. Like when I was climbing a crane to jump onto a rooftop but it was at the wrong angle so I walked up the cable (which again is ridiculous considering his feet were not touching it on either side) to its apex, then back down again to get on top of the criss-cross "tunnel" that covers the long walkway. I walked along the side of this structure which was apparently fine and then the game arbitrarily decided that one of the cross-beams was a ghost and I fell through it. Frustrating. Happens far too often.

3. Cranes, and the fact that for some reason you can't enter the cab and swivel them around. This would make for some of the most epic chases ever although to be fair the most epic chase I have had did involve leaping onto a building from a crane and then scaling down a fire escape (the one in the blocked road just south of Split Sides Comedy Club in the Meat Quarter).

4. Niko's seeming disinterest in the fact that he is being shot at while performing actions, say for example shutting a car door after exiting said car. This has lead to me getting shot so many times when all he has to do is jump out and make off like an escaping rapist but no! His OCD leads him once again to his death.

5. Lastly, the way the game arbitrarily decides which heights will kill you. Last night I plummeted from the roof of Grand Central Station (The huge station opposite the U.L. Paper building) and lived, and I was on full health. I ended up on 10%. This lead to some experimentation and I found out that sometimes you live and sometimes you don't. One time Niko landed on his feet and went "Aggh FUCK!", and was fine. A second later his momentum caused his knees to buckle and he landed on his knees and suddenly 80% of his health disappeared and he died. I find both situations weird because although the building is fucking tall the fact that you sometimes survive it really pisses me off because it draws you out of the experience and instead of you thinking "fuck that I'll die, I'll try something else" you think "oh, last time I made it" which causes you to fall to your death.

6. Ok, really lastly. Niko's slippery shoes. I'm talking about jumping onto the roof of a stationary train mid-pursuit and waiting until it leaves only to find that you roll over and over. I wish they'd sort this out because it'd be so damn sweet. Even grabbing onto the front/back/side doesn't work- he just lets go and it's soul destroying. This is probably the major think I wish they'd sort

[christaylor]

The mobile phone is the tiniest darkest fiddly piece of crap ever. Who thought it'd be a good idea to have it fill 1/32th of the screen? At least let us pause the game and then use it.

I agree with your point about its clarity, but using the phone in-game is really well implemented. Trying to use it when you are driving down the road at speed doing your best to avoid all the other traffic is very difficult!

[Monkeyboy]

Three things they need to sort out for the next game...

CHECKPOINTS, CHECKPOINTS, CHECKPOINTS.

[frogboy]

Where exactly is Nico's health indicated?

I've completed the game and I have never been able to tell how much health I have, I always go and buy armour before every mission.

[Monkeyboy]

Where exactly is Nico's health indicated?

I've completed the game and I have never been able to tell how much health I have, I always go and buy armour before every mission.

Around the circular HUD. The green half is his health. The blue half is his armour.

[Chase]

Come on Rockstar, you've made this incredible city which is without a doubt the most detailed and realistic gameworld ever created, you give us this amazing lighting system which makes everything look so beautiful, you have this dynamic weather system to evoke any mood or emotion, you have so many different pedestrian skins with their own props, so many lovely cars, great physics engine and explosions....and then you give us this shitty camera to take pictures with, where zooming in zooms the tiny box in the corner, and which doesn't even let you save images.

Come on, Rockstar. A decent photo mode would have added so many extra hours worth of gameplay to the game. Compare it to the internet+cabaret+talkradio+tv, which all combined add about an extra hours worth of content to the game. I'm not saying don't have all that stuff (because it's awesome - especially the comedy club), it's just that you need to concentrate on the basics first.

A camera mode (and a replay function) is what sandbox gaming is all about. It's about being given a sandbox, being given the tools, and making your own fun.

[cantonarv]

Come on Rockstar, you've made this incredible city which is without a doubt the most detailed and realistic gameworld ever created, you give us this amazing lighting system which makes everything look so beautiful, you have this dynamic weather system to evoke any mood or emotion, you have so many different pedestrian skins with their own props, so many lovely cars, great physics engine and explosions....and then you give us this shitty camera to take pictures with, where zooming in zooms the tiny box in the corner, and which doesn't even let you save images.

Come on, Rockstar. A decent photo mode would have added so many extra hours worth of gameplay to the game. Compare it to the internet+cabaret+talkradio+tv, which all combined add about an extra hours worth of content to the game. I'm not saying don't have all that stuff (because it's awesome - especially the comedy club), it's just that you need to concentrate on the basics first.

A camera mode (and a replay function) is what sandbox gaming is all about. It's about being given a sandbox, being given the tools, and making your own fun.

Camera? are you kidding, i dont get the point what are you taking pictures of? replays yes i can image having saving some good ones, but in game pictures ??

[rumblecat]

I spent hours in San Andreas playing with the camera. Getting a bicycle, heading off to the small towns, taking arty shots of rednecks walking through the mist. As crazy as it sounds, I really enjoyed it and would have loved to be able to the do the same thing in GTAIV- it also made exploring more fun because even if you didn't find anything in terms of hidden packages or whatnot, you could still take a mean photo and feel like it'd had been worth the effort. Love the game though, I'm thoroughly enjoying it. It's just the small things (shops, cameras, ped negative / positive interaction) that I miss as a lot of times I feel like I'm drifting through this very pretty game world that I can only really affect through violence.

[christaylor]

Where exactly is Nico's health indicated?

I've completed the game and I have never been able to tell how much health I have, I always go and buy armour before every mission.

!!!

Camera? are you kidding, i dont get the point what are you taking pictures of? replays yes i can image having saving some good ones, but in game pictures ??

Two words for ya:

strip club

[Monkeyboy]

Camera? are you kidding, i dont get the point what are you taking pictures of? replays yes i can image having saving some good ones, but in game pictures ??

I actually agree with Chase on this. A nice camera mode where you can save pictures would be good. You only have to look at Oblivion and the picture thread, where people were taking some beautiful snapshots of the landscape, under different weather conditions and times of the day. Why? Why not?

[Floshenbarnical]

I actually agree with Chase on this. A nice camera mode where you can save pictures would be good. You only have to look at Oblivion and the picture thread, where people were taking some beautiful snapshots of the landscape, under different weather conditions and times of the day. Why? Why not?

I really agree. Like walking through Middle Park in the morning when there's a little bit of light mist or on top of a skyscraper in Star Junction in the howling wind, pelting rain and crashing thunder (there's one building next to Star Junction that you can get to the top of using a window platform) and you just really want to take a picture to capture it.

That, and tits. So many great, great tits in this game. Tits, tits, tits...

Replays would be good, but I don't know how it would work, maybe the last 10 minutes of in-game footage? So many times have I done something suitably epic and then you just have to continue about your pottering about muttering to yourself "Well I saw it, and it was awesome"

[Chase]

Replays would be good, but I don't know how it would work, maybe the last 10 minutes of in-game footage? So many times have I done something suitably epic and then you just have to continue about your pottering about muttering to yourself "Well I saw it, and it was awesome"

Well about 8 years ago Driver had a workable replay function, where you could pause the game at any moment and you could go into Film Director mode, which let you view everything you'd done in the last 5 minutes and you choose angles, edit out bits, add in slow motion, etc etc, and then you could save your video onto the memory card. Worked especially great in Survivor mode because there were always massive jumps and crashes and stuff.

It would work so unbelievably well in this game it's not even funny. Check out this video made with GTA4 which parodies the opening to Naked Gun:

http://www.gamesradar.com/f/naked-gun-intr...606103058468042

That's the sort of thing anyone should be able to do in the game, not just those with external editing equipment.

[Floshenbarnical]

Well about 8 years ago Driver had a workable replay function

Yes and it was fucking brilliant and I ruined my GCSEs because of that on DRIV3R

Just so unbelievably cool, I made a little machinima TV show using it.

I've got so many friends

Little things that GTAIV misses out on which previous games did so well. I know they wanted to make an artistic statement but if in doing that you lose out on FUN then you're missing the point

Have you ever played True Crime: NYC? Shit sandbox but if you approached it as playing through your own cop movie it was incredible. The story was really well-developed, the characters were nicely fleshed out and Marcus never did anything out of character like kill 20 cops and then struggle to work out whether he should kill a drug dealer. It all seemed believable and the end was really conclusive and strong. Character customisation was great, what with the learning of Taekwondo and Karate and getting promoted as a detective and solving street crimes and buying elaborate new weapons... Unfortunately there were more glitches than I care to remember but whatever. It was memorable and I only stopped playing it when I realised I wanted a 360 more.

[SM47]

Are you insane? True Crime NYC was abysmal.

[Floshenbarnical]

From some perspectives (nay, most) it is but from a story point of view and the feeling that you're in a huge interactive city with loads of customisation options...

And I liked being a policeman officer

[Chase]

Presenting COTMs input as regards the reduced selection of vehicles and weapons in GTA4 (pasted from another thread):

if you're thinking of vehicles they've already done, planes just wouldn't be fun cause there's fuck all to do with them - the helicopters are shit enough already. And even though I'm not concerned with reality, i'm sure the developers are which is why we're not going to get any more jetpacks, or, I don't know, Giant amphibious panthers.

Weapons, I can't think of anything that's missing that is any fun. possibly the flamethrower, those are always a bit of fun that get you killed immediately. or the dildos, oh yeah they were a great idea.

This debate isn't fun vs. reality, it's gta4 versus a bunch of retarded shit that mongfaces think would be fun, but most likely wouldn't.

Say what you will about GTA4, but it's done a landmark Roe vs Wade on Fun vs Realism, it's finished Games Reviews, and it's turned Saints Row 2 from a copycat into a contender. I don't think anyone expected it to be this influential.

[Floshenbarnical]

Say what you will about GTA4, but it's done a landmark Roe vs Wade on Fun vs Realism, it's finished Games Reviews, and it's turned Saints Row 2 from a copycat into a contender. I don't think anyone expected it to be this influential.

I'd agree. I work in a games store and all the customers pretty much were talking about how SR was too cartoony and how they can't wait to play a more realistic city but a few months into launch most people are talking about how awesome it'll be to base jump in SR2 which is where I really think R* missed out, if they'd put the realism in there and then had some fun which serious players could choose to ignore then it would have been awesome. So many times have I scaled a tall building and thought "Ah, fuck. No way down now." It's not just that aspect but driving around LC tonight I just got a feeling of emptiness about the place where in Stilwater I never got that.

[Uncle Mike]

You pair of fucking chumps.

[Floshenbarnical]

Stuff that seems realistic which they wouldn't quite be able to do in real life.

I want to be able to get a grappling hook, climb a building, snipe my target and then abseil down and if that's not in keeping with the "story of struggle and angst of a foreign newcomer in a strange world seeking answers and revenge" then GTA IV can FUCK RIGHT OFF

I also want to be able to save photographs

[therearerules]

In what way is base jumping not realistic? Or parachuting? The inability to do either, however, is.

[Floshenbarnical]

Yeah. I get the constant feeling that the game is reigning me in by the developers saying NO, THIS is what we want you to do and how we want you to do it!

But sandbox should be you deciding what you want to do and how you want to do it, and the constant emphasis on their perception of "realism" stops it from being as enjoyable as it could be.

[Ste Pickford]

Sounds to me like there might well be two different / competing factions within the dev team.

One set of guys trying to make an 'interactive movie' cinematic experience, with a start, middle and end, and set things you must do, as scripted by these people, to have the experience they want you to have.

Another set of guys are trying to make a dynamic sandbox system allowing emergent gameplay, without the need for pre scripted gameplay or cut scenes or any forcing of the player in one particular direction.

The end result is a slightly uneasy compromise between the two factions' work.

[Monkeyboy]

I've got to admit, there have been times in GTA4 when I've been on a rooftop, and I've thought, "Now if this was Crackdown..." But different games, with different aims, so I would usually shrug my shoulders and make my way back down the stairs.

People talk of Saints Row 2 being better than GTA4, but the way SR is heading, it might be better to compare it to Crackdown.

[Floshenbarnical]

So many cranes that drop you on rooftops with no way down

WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY

[Chase]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KbmcIf8XOag

How pathetic is that.