My first hour with Zelda

[vegetables]

The 3D versions are nobbled by hand-holding. They're boring, linear trudges, propped up by the charm of friendly NPCs and the return of the gorgeous soundtrack.

Majora's Mask has very little hand-holding, isn't very linear and certainly isn't boring, has a somewhat odd soundtrack and most of the NPCs in it are absolutely terrifying. Play that. To my mind it's the only videogame I've played that could be called a classic in the same way a work of fiction in literature is, but if I start going on about that I'll begin to resemble Edge, so I'll stop there.

[Hawkeye]

Majoras Mask is a great game, but it's also the one I know most folk gave up with fairly early on. Everyone I know seemed to despise the three day cycle after having gotten used to spend hours just messing about in OOT.

Personally I love the 3D Zeldas, but never have really enjoyed any of the 2D ones quite the same. Probably as I came to them late, and OOT was my first Zelda and thus would be used as my starting point for the series.

[RubberJohnny]

I thought the combat suffered from being split between wolf and Link. As a wolf you'd attack an enemy and he'd fall over backwards and lie on the floor for ages waiting for a backstab that you couldn't perform. You couldn't attack him until he stood up again, this repeated was an utter pain in the arse.

Most enemies were so slow, dumb and weak that I just ran past them. Without any form of incentive to kill them (loot or XP points for example) I just tired of it, they were dull to fight. Plus the dungeons are pale shadows of games past, there was nothing as complex or as large as the massive boulder room in Ocarinas Fire Temple and I stopped enjoying the bosses the minute they became about impressive scale and visuals over gameplay, Ocarinas Water Amoeba thing wasn't particularly staggering, but was more fun to fight than anything in Wind Waker.

[Joyrex-J9]

TP is not without it's flaws; the ridiculous sums of money you amass for one thing with nothing to spend them on, and the fact that many of the major side quests only reward you with only with more money made them more or less redundant to me.

However it's not worthy of some of the bile that's been directed at it in this thread, why does it need to change so much, it's not as if Nintendo release a Zelda game every year and are churning them out.

[Isaac]

I'll agree with the people who've posted further up.

MM is the best Zelda I've ever played. Bar none. It is like a classic literary novel. Can be interpreted in some really interesting ways. Please nintendo, make a next-gen version of that, just as creepy, with a perhaps slightly longer day cycle.

They could leave out the forms if they wanted.

[noizu]

MM is the best Zelda I've ever played. Bar none. It is like a classic literary novel. Can be interpreted in some really interesting ways. Please nintendo, make a next-gen version of that, just as creepy, with a perhaps slightly longer day cycle.

To be honest, I can't imagine another Zelda being made with the same tone as MM again - I think that appearing so soon after Ocarina, it was seen a kind of afterthought, which meant that it could veer off in weird new directions without the pressure the 'main' Zeldas have of keeping it accessible to new players and being big system sellers. It definitely has the feel of 'the first one's been a big success, let's fuck with the formula, mess with people's heads and see what happens!' that you sometimes see with the better sequels (bit like Empire to Star Wars, or Batman Returns to Tim Burton's Batman). I love MM's warped Alice In Wonderland feel to pieces, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was a one-off.

Makes it all the more special, of course....

[Hawkeye]

Looking back, Twilight Princess as a whole was pretty dissapointing, but its high points were really fucking high.

I enjoyed it. I think with TP is was obvious the design and implementation of everything was aimed at it's roots though, that was to create the game that a million moaning gits craved at the release of Wind Waker. It's design does seem to hark at creating the final farewell for the GC and to try and please those that despised where they had gone with Wind Waker.

Hopefully at some point we'll get another Zelda on the GC and with a large user base to aim for maybe they'll take some risks with it.

[DonRumsfeld]

Nintendo couldn't win with TP, if they'd have went down the WW path again the yanks would've whined and complained. I think they just went "Fuck it, they want OOT, we'll give them everything they could ever expect from a Zelda game in the one package". It was a swansong for the gamecube, and personally I don't consider it to be the Wii's Zelda. That will come at some point and is going to be very interesting.

Personally my order of preference is;

MM; TP; OOT; LttP; WW.

Wind Waker for me was a flawed genius, the sailing got too repetitve, and the triforce fetch quest resulted in me visiting gamefaqs just to get the game outta the way. That never happened for me in TP and the fact that you could move to locations very quickly cut out a lot of the drudgery.

[therealjohnpeat]

EDIT. As mentioned you can save, you just start at the begining of the dungeon. Also what do you want, save anywhere? Which would wreck any challenge the game has.

This is a well-tired argument but here's my 10p anyway.

If I suddenly find i have something which needs doing - I'd like to be able to stop playing ANY videogame, pretty much instantly - and return later to EXACTLY where I was.

I don't want to be back at the start of the dungeon needing to hack my way through it again (even if unlocked doors don't need reopening I still the walking, jumping and killing to do) - and I definately don't want to be finding some weird-shit-looking duckfreak to do this...

All games need are 2 separate 'save' systems.

One, which is the 'restart point if you die' - this needs to be measured to balance the risk-reward thing.

The other is the 'sleep mode' thing - it only works once, you can't keep going back to it if you die - but it enables you to drop a game at any time and return later (without having to leave the console on etc. etc.)

Why games/console developers haven't worked this out in the last 20 years I've no idea (handhelds aside ofc.)

[scottcr]

what the non N64 games on the VC really demonstrate is that *every* game should have a standby/sleepmode. The consoles are getting there - the 360 lets you do a limited amount of stuff without coming out of the game... there's obviously the VC games on the Wii (I don't know what the PS3 does).

I suspect we'll have proper game standby in the next generation.

[Smitty]

.::: The only good Zelda's are LA and ALttP. The Flagship ones are the worst. That's all.

Bull.

Ocarina of Time was an epic videogame. Bloody amazing.

[DonRumsfeld]

The other is the 'sleep mode' thing - it only works once, you can't keep going back to it if you die - but it enables you to drop a game at any time and return later (without having to leave the console on etc. etc.)

Why games/console developers haven't worked this out in the last 20 years I've no idea (handhelds aside ofc.)

That's a fair point, it's a godsend on the DS and PSP. The thing I'm against is saving anytime to repeat the same bit over and over again, I was guilty of it myself in Bioshock and the original Call of Duty's first level.

.::: The only good Zelda's are LA and ALttP. The Flagship ones are the worst. That's all.

I hope your joking.

[The Grand Pursuivant]

This is a well-tired argument but here's my 10p anyway.

If I suddenly find i have something which needs doing - I'd like to be able to stop playing ANY videogame, pretty much instantly - and return later to EXACTLY where I was.

I don't want to be back at the start of the dungeon needing to hack my way through it again (even if unlocked doors don't need reopening I still the walking, jumping and killing to do) - and I definately don't want to be finding some weird-shit-looking duckfreak to do this...

All games need are 2 separate 'save' systems.

One, which is the 'restart point if you die' - this needs to be measured to balance the risk-reward thing.

The other is the 'sleep mode' thing - it only works once, you can't keep going back to it if you die - but it enables you to drop a game at any time and return later (without having to leave the console on etc. etc.)

Why games/console developers haven't worked this out in the last 20 years I've no idea (handhelds aside ofc.)

Whilst I don't disagree with the idea of a sleep mode, your criticism of Zelda is wrong. You find the duck thing incredibly early on in all of the levels, and, if you use it in the room you need to leave, to take you back to the beginning, then save and resume playing the game later, it takes you back to the exact room you were in when you last used it. Which is exactly what you're complaining of the game not doing. It could probably be simpler, but it's there, and it tells you it's there the first time you find it.

[scottcr]

Bull.

Ocarina of Time was an epic videogame. Bloody amazing.

the only good Zelda is a DEAD Zelda.

[mdn2]

The only Zelda games I've not enjoyed were the 'Oracles' duo and Zelda II on the NES. Yes, I even enjoyed 'The Minish Cap', although it didn't always feel like a Zelda game. TP is an excellent game, but merely a 'good' Zelda game. While it did feel like 'been there, done that,' there was still many excellent moments. The Sky Temple was amazing and many other dungeons and bosses are the best Zelda has ever seen.

And it was a better game than Okami IMO. Although that was decent as well.

[___]

I had many a fun evening pressing the jump button in LttP.

[Uzi]

I too felt empty in the OOT when I was robbed of the chance to press a button and line myself up at the exact moment when link's feet neared a ridge, absolutely robbed.

[Massive Invisible Dog]

Automatic jump? What next, no need to hold the run button in 3D Mario games?

[RubberJohnny]

If people could stop paying attention to Escapes posts that'd be grand.

[Andsom]

I find it hard to believe anyone could actually say that TP was a 'bad game'. It's clearly not. The thing that dissapointed me though, was that if you've ever played a Zelda game before you can pretty much sleepwalk through it. There weren't enough surprises or new ideas. Nintendo have reinvented Mario this year and I'm hoping they'll do the same with Zelda in its next incarnation.

[chris on the moon]

Hopefully at some point we'll get another Zelda on the GC and with a large user base to aim for maybe they'll take some risks with it.

I don't think they're making many more gamecube games

I had many a fun evening pressing the jump button in LttP.

Link's awakening.

[Stanley]

Whilst I don't disagree with the idea of a sleep mode, your criticism of Zelda is wrong. You find the duck thing incredibly early on in all of the levels, and, if you use it in the room you need to leave, to take you back to the beginning, then save and resume playing the game later, it takes you back to the exact room you were in when you last used it. Which is exactly what you're complaining of the game not doing. It could probably be simpler, but it's there, and it tells you it's there the first time you find it.

I agree. It's the first Zelda to use this form of saving too, I think. It's frustrating they removed the facility when you get to the Sky Temple though.

[Stolly]

I agree. It's the first Zelda to use this form of saving too, I think. It's frustrating they removed the facility when you get to the Sky Temple though.

Wouldn't it have been a bit pointless there though, given that everything opens up around a central hub and never goes far away from that?

[SMD]

I agree. It's the first Zelda to use this form of saving too, I think. It's frustrating they removed the facility when you get to the Sky Temple though.

Uh, wasn't there an Ooccoo that warped you back to the shop? Or am I imagining it?

[Stanley]

Uh, wasn't there an Ooccoo that warped you back to the shop? Or am I imagining it?

Yeah there was, but the shop is right at the start of the dungeon/level, where you would start anyway. Totally pointless.

[Beitel]

Vince is right: the 2D versions are the gold standard for gameplay immersion. Auto-jump?!

The auto-jump thing is genious. Links also jumped automatically over ledges and stuff in the 2D games, so it's not that different at all.

I do think that Link's Awakening is the best Zelda, but at the same time I think that the biggest fault of the 3D Zelda's is staying too close to the 2D versions.

[Vemsie]

I think Zelda needs another Majora's Mask more than it needs an overhaul. Something unrelentingly adult in the proper sense of the word, and inspired. Twilight Princess felt really, really slight compared to the world of MM- I think I cared about that crazy man with the Bremen Mask more than the entire soddingly massive expanse of the new Hyrule. Zelda needs to be about creating an involving and affecting world, not a stupid one where everyone is dull, nobody talks to you and there's just a lot of nothingness everywhere.

Oh yes. For me, it towers above any Zelda.

Make that any game.

[utero2001]

Links Awakening, best 2D Zelda game, poos on LTTP

TP I found ok, not terribly frustrating, just once I'd finished it I didn't feel like I'd achieved anything, where as OOT felt like I'd met God and he'd confirmed OOT was fucking amazing

[SMD]

Yeah there was, but the shop is right at the start of the dungeon/level, where you would start anyway. Totally pointless.

But the point is, you use the Ooccoo to warp out to the shop, save, come back and warp back in.