Jump to content

Deus Ex: Human Revolution


Recommended Posts

Just read a preview of Subversion from 2010. Sounds fucking amazing! I hope they pull it out of the bag.

But there' a bit in there which reminds me why I feel the way I do about this:

Why go to this level of modelling? “The real benefits to this are a huge amount of richness to the way the world works, and hence a lot more ways you can break it to your advantage.”

http://www.gamesradar.com/pc/subversion/preview/first-look-at-subversion/a-20100408165712375016/g-20100408163937851035

Anyway, I didn't really mean to be super negative about Deus Ex 3 as a whole, and I wasn't. It is actually one of my most anticipated games, I think it looks and sounds amazing.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Is there any 360 footage out there? I'm curious as to how it looks on consoles.

EDIT: Hmm found some

and it doesn't look too bad I suppose. I can imagine it looking a ton better on the PC with all the bells and whistles turned on though.

Usually I'm not one to moan about visual differences between console versions of a game and the PC version but to me it's an integral part for Deus Ex 3. The visuals are a big part of what makes the atmosphere stand out from the rest of the crowd so I'm slightly worried that this might be a bit of a let-down on consoles.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The visuals are a big part of what makes the atmosphere stand out from the rest of the crowd

?

did you play deux ex?

it looked like shit

okay, harsh, but it wasn't because of the graphics it was great.

Atmosphere comes down to so much more than just graphics though.

deus ex had tons of atmosphere

Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd totally do a playhrough vid if it wouldn't potentially get me in trouble.

I'LL SHOW YOU ALERT STATES.

Keep the faith brosephs, it is made of win from the few hours I've played. Even knowing the thing that daveodeth/faf mentioned earlier in the thread doesn't worry me.

Bring on august. I'm really hoping the pc has an option for higher detail models though, some of them looked a bit perfect dark zero.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Well there's your answer, in much more definitive terms. Second video, 10:50. Making a mistake in the lower part of the facility won't alert the guards in the upper part because the director didn't want the game to be too punitive.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Which is what most people have been saying anyway. Realism and persistance are all well and good but if I accidently make a mistake in the very first section of floor one I don't want to be punished with a harder game for the rest of the level. Sometimes fun and enjoyment have to trump making the game entirely realistic.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Thing is, Talk Show Host and Smitty will now go through the game thinking about the guards alert level and break the immersion themselves! Ho hum.

The Internet spoils games more than the games themselves.

  • Upvote 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Gotta say it would be nice if you fuck up on the lower floor, the guards on the upper floor post permanent turrets/security at the lift/stairwell access. Making you have to look for alternative access unless you wanted to have to run and gun your way to the next floor. Maybe sending down two man teams to recon the damage below. I wouldn't say that was a punishing or fun sapping approach at all.

Either way I don't think I'll give two shits when I'm actually playing it and hoofing it through windows and down vents.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Which is what most people have been saying anyway. Realism and persistance are all well and good but if I accidently make a mistake in the very first section of floor one I don't want to be punished with a harder game for the rest of the level. Sometimes fun and enjoyment have to trump making the game entirely realistic.

Yeah, but a big thing in Deus Ex and in most modern stealth games is if you fuck up and get spotted you can just play it like a shooter, which makes the need for stuff like this seem odd. If you get caught and play the rest of the level like an action level - what's punitive about that? Shooters seem plenty accessible?

For me the fuss isn't really about this specific case, but about what it says of the games design in general, it seems rather un-progressive. Considering Deus Ex was noted for its fantastic AI for the time, seeing the sequel eleven years later be less ambitious in this facet seems ridiculous. Ersatz Nihilist said to focus on what it does do, but that seems to be the same as Deus Ex, no more, and perhaps a little less.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Thing is, Talk Show Host and Smitty will now go through the game thinking about the guards alert level and break the immersion themselves! Ho hum.

The Internet spoils games more than the games themselves.

Νο, not really. The immersion breaks not only because it's a stupid choice but also because the director can't convince me why this is happening.

There were many ways to deal with this without making the game stupid or unbalanced. They just didn't go for it due to time/budget restraints.

That doesn't make it right though and it's not something modern games should suffer from, especially RPGs of this kind and especially when they spend so much effort to promote the believability of their worlds.

That doesn't mean it won't be a fun game but any chance for greatness has now vanished for me.

  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

That doesn't mean it won't be a fun game but any chance for greatness has now vanished for me.

Jesus. Fuck the mission design, story, dialogue, locations, atmosphere, variety of approach. The game has lost any chance for greatness because guard alert states reset when you move from the first floor to the second floor. What a drama queen.

  • Upvote 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, but a big thing in Deus Ex and in most modern stealth games is if you fuck up and get spotted you can just play it like a shooter, which makes the need for stuff like this seem odd. If you get caught and play the rest of the level like an action level - what's punitive about that? Shooters seem plenty accessible?

Personally, I will always choose to play games stealthily if at all possible. If I lose the option to play an entire level stealthily, or playing stealthily becomes much more difficult, because of a mistake I made 5 minutes into a level I'd be a bit pissed off to be honest. Now if every level had an alert state which persisted across the whole level, that would basically mean that every level would have a 'one mistake and you're out' approach to playing stealthily, which is rubbish. I'm ok with the idea of a mistake during stealth leading to action within a confined area but not across the whole level if I can help it.

  • Upvote 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
Personally, I will always choose to play games stealthily if at all possible. If I lose the option to play an entire level stealthily, or playing stealthily becomes much more difficult, because of a mistake I made 5 minutes into a level I'd be a bit pissed off to be honest. Now if every level had an alert state which persisted across the whole level, that would basically mean that every level would have a 'one mistake and you're out' approach to playing stealthily, which is rubbish. I'm ok with the idea of a mistake during stealth leading to action within a confined area but not across the whole level if I can help it.

So you say you like stealth but dislike how every stealth game does stealth? Riiiiight.

I remember when Deus Ex was new and felt like something with incredible potential for the future, and now a decade later it hasn't been built on at all, and we've just got a shinier version that's no more ambitious at best. Same shit different decade, eh?

Link to post
Share on other sites

i just hope this isn't a rush job.

Been so many games lately that have been so unfit for release.

This is hallowed ground and i will be very grumpy if its rubbish

Well they've had extra time to work on the game, due to the release delay. So fingers crossed.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, but a big thing in Deus Ex and in most modern stealth games is if you fuck up and get spotted you can just play it like a shooter, which makes the need for stuff like this seem odd. If you get caught and play the rest of the level like an action level - what's punitive about that? Shooters seem plenty accessible?

You might well run into difficulties if you'd been playing the game stealthily, and specced out your character accordingly, then tried to shoot your way through the rest of the level. I'm sure it would be doable, but clearly Eidos want to avoid that sort of situation.

I remember when Deus Ex was new and felt like something with incredible potential for the future, and now a decade later it hasn't been built on at all, and we've just got a shinier version that's no more ambitious at best. Same shit different decade, eh?

Frankly, I think it's a miracle that it's happened at all. Glass half full and all that. And who knows, maybe the game will be a big success and they can use it as a stepping stone towards something more ambitious.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Jesus. Fuck the mission design, story, dialogue, locations, atmosphere, variety of approach. The game has lost any chance for greatness because guard alert states reset when you move from the first floor to the second floor. What a drama queen.

All the things you refer to are tied to the game's world one way or another. Alert states in an RPG that relies on stealth is very important to me.

If it was difficult to do something or come up with a solution I would just accept it as a barrier we have not yet overcome.

DX3 just didn't bother with it as there were many easy solutions for this.

Again, this is my opinion. I'm not so gullible anymore to forgive the shit a game developer does for no apparent reason. He's not giving me the game for free you know.

If you are fine with it be fine with it. I'm not, so deal with it.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Personally, I will always choose to play games stealthily if at all possible. If I lose the option to play an entire level stealthily, or playing stealthily becomes much more difficult, because of a mistake I made 5 minutes into a level I'd be a bit pissed off to be honest. Now if every level had an alert state which persisted across the whole level, that would basically mean that every level would have a 'one mistake and you're out' approach to playing stealthily, which is rubbish. I'm ok with the idea of a mistake during stealth leading to action within a confined area but not across the whole level if I can help it.

Yeah, I agree with that. I want to use stealth as much as possible in this game, not just the first minute of each level. I get far more pleasure from sneaking around than I do from constant gun battles.

Link to post
Share on other sites

There were many ways to deal with this without making the game stupid or unbalanced. They just didn't go for it due to time/budget restraints.

If it was difficult to do something or come up with a solution I would just accept it as a barrier we have not yet overcome.

DX3 just didn't bother with it as there were many easy solutions for this.

Again, this is my opinion. I'm not so gullible anymore to forgive the shit a game developer does for no apparent reason.

So which is it? They didn't do it because it was impossible to achieve with the resources they had, or they didn't do it because they're too dim to think of a solution that meets your personal requirements, or that there is no reason for it, and it's utterly arbitrary?

You could do the MGS2-and-later thing of having certain areas pass alert states across, so if I go from room A to room B at alert level 2 room B is at alert level 1 before transitioning to alert level 0. But what's the point of that? Guards magically get "more guardy"? Then you run into the problem of having stealth players navigate a totally unfamiliar space with no idea where they can hide, up against a pre-warned enemy who should, by rights, know from the previous troupe of guards to be aiming a gun at the door/ vent/ whatever before you've even come through it and shot you dead in an instant.

Plus it's a long-established stealth-game convention (I'm talking back to the original Metal Gear games) that your reward for surviving a botch sneak long enough to escape the area is an area with a neutral alert state that takes the pressure off.

To call it stupid game design/ the result of rushed or underfunded development/ arbitrary is pretty ignorant. As it stands I totally get where they're coming from- by having discrete per-region AI states you streamline level design a hell of a lot, and you can break the level design into discrete gameplay units that you can actually make and test easier. It's easy enough to write off in terms of the way buildings are guarded. You set up patrols, each patrol's job is to guard the floor they're on from intruders, even if a patrol in a different area is aware of a problem (ie you triggered an alert) they're already doing their job- looking about the area for you.

There are lots of other ways of doing it, but they all have their own unique problems and stupid, inexplicable quirks (the omniscient multi-bodied Godguard, all of its bodies aware of your last seen location via radio and capable of coordinating a withering an inescapable attack; the amnesiac scout troupe who gives up looking for you after arbitrary time X), that they went for the option that lots of people are familiar with is no surprise.

  • Upvote 5
Link to post
Share on other sites

The other thing with having harsh punishments for raising the alarm is it'll mean people will be constantly saving and reloading if they get busted, which is far worse for maintaining immersion. Far better to build in some leniency to help the game flow.

  • Upvote 4
Link to post
Share on other sites

Personally, I will always choose to play games stealthily if at all possible. If I lose the option to play an entire level stealthily, or playing stealthily becomes much more difficult, because of a mistake I made 5 minutes into a level I'd be a bit pissed off to be honest. Now if every level had an alert state which persisted across the whole level, that would basically mean that every level would have a 'one mistake and you're out' approach to playing stealthily, which is rubbish. I'm ok with the idea of a mistake during stealth leading to action within a confined area but not across the whole level if I can help it.

I think that's a very black and white view of the argument, I don't think (though am not sure) that anyone is arguing in favour of the 'make one mistake and then have to proceed like Arnie on a roid rampage throughout the rest of the level' scenario. But there are design choices that could be made to direct you into being more attentive and careful (which are the lynch pins of being stealthy, right?) on other floors/different parts of the same level.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The other thing with having harsh punishments for raising the alarm is it'll mean people will be constantly saving and reloading if they get busted, which is far worse for maintaining immersion. Far better to build in some leniency to help the game flow.

Plus it's stupid to punish people for being bad at stealth with even harder stealth.

Also, the video that started this argument- I'm not seeing the bit where Jensen magically loses his alert level after being spotted. It's two runs of the same level isn't it?

Edit- actually, it isn't is it? Could I get the exact period when Jensen apparently loses his alert?

  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Plus it's stupid to punish people for being bad at stealth with even harder stealth.

Also, the video that started this argument- I'm not seeing the bit where Jensen magically loses his alert level after being spotted. It's two runs of the same level isn't it?

Edit- actually, it isn't is it? Could I get the exact period when Jensen apparently loses his alert?

Near the end of the second video the IGN guy asks if the personnel in the second section would be more hostile towards Jensen if he had shot his way through the first section. The director says no because they're separate areas, and they wanted players to be able to recover from mistakes. I don't think he actually loses any alerts during the video.

Personally I'm not fussed, the game is looking pretty great. :)

Link to post
Share on other sites

So which is it? They didn't do it because it was impossible to achieve with the resources they had, or they didn't do it because they're too dim to think of a solution that meets your personal requirements, or that there is no reason for it, and it's utterly arbitrary?

You could do the MGS2-and-later thing of having certain areas pass alert states across, so if I go from room A to room B at alert level 2 room B is at alert level 1 before transitioning to alert level 0. But what's the point of that? Guards magically get "more guardy"? Then you run into the problem of having stealth players navigate a totally unfamiliar space with no idea where they can hide, up against a pre-warned enemy who should, by rights, know from the previous troupe of guards to be aiming a gun at the door/ vent/ whatever before you've even come through it and shot you dead in an instant.

Plus it's a long-established stealth-game convention (I'm talking back to the original Metal Gear games) that your reward for surviving a botch sneak long enough to escape the area is an area with a neutral alert state that takes the pressure off.

To call it stupid game design/ the result of rushed or underfunded development/ arbitrary is pretty ignorant. As it stands I totally get where they're coming from- by having discrete per-region AI states you streamline level design a hell of a lot, and you can break the level design into discrete gameplay units that you can actually make and test easier. It's easy enough to write off in terms of the way buildings are guarded. You set up patrols, each patrol's job is to guard the floor they're on from intruders, even if a patrol in a different area is aware of a problem (ie you triggered an alert) they're already doing their job- looking about the area for you.

There are lots of other ways of doing it, but they all have their own unique problems and stupid, inexplicable quirks (the omniscient multi-bodied Godguard, all of its bodies aware of your last seen location via radio and capable of coordinating a withering an inescapable attack; the amnesiac scout troupe who gives up looking for you after arbitrary time X), that they went for the option that lots of people are familiar with is no surprise.

The fact that they chose to do this is a stupid design choice as it breaks immersion and believability in the world. They could avoid this by selecting certain areas where it makes sense for the A.I. to be alerted and others that doesn't. It's not the same to traverse a giant area with one or two security posts and to sneak in a high security lab with cameras everywhere. It just doesn't make sense.

Solutions? Aplenty. And much less stupid than the seperate A.I. alert states. Have them use bulletproof vests, put another gaurd on the patrols, lock one door which could give you access to some e-mails, make the items more sparse, etc. All discretely done so it doesn't upset the balance into an unplayble state.

Really not that difficult in this day and age.

They just picked the easiest solution and I think that you' re the one who's ignorant if you believe otherwise.

But there's no point in discussing this any more. I'm sure the game will be good, I'm just not very excited about it any more.

  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
The other thing with having harsh punishments for raising the alarm is it'll mean people will be constantly saving and reloading if they get busted, which is far worse for maintaining immersion. Far better to build in some leniency to help the game flow.

Again though, what harsh punishments? In every modern game you can play it as a shooter once you fuck up, so there's your leniency and helping game flow without breaking immersion. This just seems like an unnecessary extra layer that doesn't add anything to the game, and actually detracts from the stealth gameplay by trivialising it.

I mean maybe the game could kill off all enemies in other sections of the map when you run low on health or ammo so we don't break immersion and game flow while providing leniency rather than having the harsh punishments of having to kill all those other people- oh wait, we only trivialise the non-shooter mechanics, sorry.

  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

The fact that they chose to do this is a stupid design choice as it breaks immersion and believability in the world. They could avoid this by selecting certain areas where it makes sense for the A.I. to be alerted and others that doesn't. It's not the same to traverse a giant area with one or two security posts and to sneak in a high security lab with cameras everywhere. It just doesn't make sense.

Solutions? Aplenty. And much less stupid than the seperate A.I. alert states. Have them use bulletproof vests, put another gaurd on the patrols, lock one door which could give you access to some e-mails, make the items more sparse, etc. All discretely done so it doesn't upset the balance into an unplayble state.

Problem comes when you have to manage AI states across those multiple discrete areas. You have guards who are aware that you, in fact, tripped the alarm in a previous area. Why don't they bother going to the area where you are to kick your ass? Do they reinforce their position? If so, how long does it take? If I get seen at the very end of area A, do I walk into Area B to find a suddenly perfectly set-up ambush that couldn't have possibly be arranged in time, or guards positioning themselves differently? If I've already been to section B, walk into section A, get spotted and go back to B, and there's suddenly more heavily-armed guards, how did that happen? Did they have time to put on bullet-proof vests? They're already in head-to-toe body armour, why would they were a vest on that? Where did the extra guard that suddenly appeared in B come from? Should the game run an AI sim on section B when I create an alert in section A, so that given enough time the enemies will have gotten ready, but I can interrupt them mid-prep if I'm quick enough? Why would guards on-duty stop to rearm with an intruder about? Why would they move someone from one section to another, thus decreasing its guard amount? Or would you arbitrarily instantiate a guard from nothing? If I've never been to section B and am punished for a mistake I made in section A and essentially told, "you should've thought about being stealthy before you wanted to get that item", would players not then carry on on the assumption that the game will always punish me in a totally unpredictable way for my behaviour? Why would items suddenly vanish from later sections as a result of an alert?

Really not that difficult in this day and age.

They just picked the easiest solution and I think that you' re the one who's ignorant if you believe otherwise.

But there's no point in discussing this any more. I'm sure the game will be good, I'm just not very excited about it any more.

None of your suggestions are difficult, some of them may well be in the game already, but when you start building a game around the idea that the player, after triggering an alert, will wind up playing the game through with a seriously different set of problems to face you're essentially building multiple levels that you have to test. And these changes can't be arbitrary for individual levels or a couple of levels; you need to have them happen consistently across the entire structure the AI is meant to be guarding, or you might as well limit the effect to one floor anyway, otherwise the player has no idea what effect his actions are having. The player makes one mistake on level 1, or, God forbid, the game makes them do a mistake as a result of a game design bug, and they've got an entire building full of extra-armoured baddies, less items and lots of locked doors.

Keeping AI sandboxed to floors isn't an easy fix, it's an elegant solution to a major problem.

  • Upvote 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue. Use of this website is subject to our Privacy Policy, Terms of Use, and Guidelines.