The Halo 3 aftermath thread

[ZOK]

Tee hee! You're a little scamp, kerraig!

[Phelan]

Well I'm playing in Australia and have played againts Brits, Americans, Koreans and loads from all over. I've had two games stop due to the host dropping out and us being dropped back to the main screen and at the moment I'm whammed over my monthly limit and I'm limited to 60kps for download and 1000kps for upload and haven't seen that much lag or latency issues - which really surprised me as I thought I wouldn't be able to play until my bandwidth speeds went back to normal at the start of a new month.

I have witnessed the latency being a problem and playing from Australia I've come to expect it but I've still been notching up more kills than most people playing against me and am at rank 31 on Lone Wolves.

Now I know I'm not in the league of people like Tyler and Kerraig and Kryptonian who can shoot the balls off a gnat with a BR - but alas my skill with that weapon and the sniper rifle etc are so bad that I don't play a style of game using them. I get in close and mauler/melee/shotgun. I tend to play defensively and sneakily. I hang around near energy doors, I use grenades like they were growing on trees and I keep playing because I have fun.

I know I'll never get to the levels that Kerraig is talking about where games are decided by who is hosting and instead I kick back and have fun.

[SPE]

sigh, the amount of times ive had this conversation...

firstly, i'm not talking lag, i'm talking latency. Big difference.

But lag is latency. They're the same thing. Lag is the term to describe the momentary delay you experience due to latency (the time it takes for the data packets to travel across the internet). But for all intents and purposes, they both describe the same thing. You can't have lag without latency and latency will give you lag. One is the direct result of the other.

[Asura]

So kill the snipers. It's not hard at all. It's by far the easiest of the Halo games.

This. I had no problem doing this level almost entirely with the assault rifle and battle rifle for the snipers.

[Meers]

I'm not sure what you mean here.

Oh, I thought he fired just as you were jumping.

How do you know he was host? (I can never tell)

I mean, you can't 'kill' someone if he's not in the same place that he appears to be on your screen. IYKWIM. You see him there, but he's actually not there. Latency. Packet delay. It makes the whole thing ineffective. It's like using jamjar goggles while playing.

No, he fired once I was directly above him. And he aimed straight forward, not up towards me. Pause the replay clip and slo-mo it!

You can view everyone's connection quality after the game. It's in the replays as well. Press the back button.

Isn't that basically what "Good Connection" should do, if it was implemented correctly? I mean, maybe not UK only, but certainly east-coast US and western Europe only. As in, no more than 100ms end-to-end.

'Good Connection' fails because it does little to solve the problem, in practice.

There is another option: player-provided dedicated server support for custom games. Someone hosts the game on their 360 but can't play at the same time. I think some Ubisoft games support this, maybe R6:V?

Yes, and I've left my 360 on at night to let people make use of my dedicated server and connection whilst I was out on a few occasions. Works extremely well.

Just to say, I think this problem will get better over time. Dead or Alive 2/4 are my evidence. When it first started, everyone was yelling and shouting about how crap it was due to lag. Soon, everyone with shit connections who complained just decided to stop playing, it took about 4 weeks. After that, the game became far more playable.

It shouldn't be like that. It should work fine from day one, not wait until hosts are determined. That's where Matchmaking fails; it needs to determine good hosts, which takes time, which means lots of laggy frustrating sessions for a good while.

But lag is latency. They're the same thing. Lag is the term to describe the momentary delay you experience due to latency (the time it takes for the data packets to travel across the internet). But for all intents and purposes, they both describe the same thing. You can't have lag without latency and latency will give you lag. One is the direct result of the other.

No. Wrong.

Lag is packet loss.

Latency is packet delay.

They are not the same thing, as I'm sure you'll agree.

[Guest alisdair]

Lag is packet loss.

Latency is packet delay.

I know it's just a matter of terminology, but that's not right. Lag is the gameplay weirdness caused by a high-latency or unreliable link, and it happens when the client-side prediction is wrong.

Lag is when someone appears to glitch across a map because they're moving unpredictably, or when you get shot in the face when you're not looking at a gun. Packet loss can cause lag effects too, of course, but you can have a steady reliable connection to the other player and still experience lag. You can strategise around it though, at least at my poor skill level.

Kerraig, I'm surprised that host can be such a big deal as to completely decide matches at your level. I'll probably never be that good so it won't affect me, but if that's how it goes with high skilled teams then I can understand your complaints now.

[metallicfrodo]

The main point is - why can't we choose not to play against Americans/with Brits?

If you're talking about matchmaking as opposed to being able to search for customs, then part of the reason is that for matchmaking to work properly as a skill based system you need a large enough pool of players.

As it is Ste was mentioning that playing at lunch time meant that he was getting matched with much higher rated players and this is because the availabe pool of players was too small to acurately match skill levels. It's why you have the issues with PGR3 that beejay alluded to. (Although considering they have given you the option to filter on language that argument sort of goes out the window.)

Is it essential to play against Brits though? Why not set it to French, that should sort out the latency problems by playing predominently the French?

Additionally in response to one of Kerraigs points I thought that Halo 3 now gave you the option to party up with people you had just played with in matchmaking, so you could play them again, or is that only in the Social playlist?

[Straps]

Why not set it to French, that should sort out the latency problems by playing predominently the French?

It would, yeah, but then you've created another problem because you're playing with the laggiest set of players around (anecdotal!!!!11111).

[Pob]

Is it essential to play against Brits though? Why not set it to French, that should sort out the latency problems by playing predominently the French?

I'm surprised no-one else has mentioned this. Find out which nearby country has the best connections, set your language to match, learn how to say "good game" in that language and off you go! It's not as if opposing teams really talk to each beyond slinging insults anyway.

[kerraig UK]

It shouldn't be like that. It should work fine from day one, not wait until hosts are determined. That's where Matchmaking fails; it needs to determine good hosts, which takes time, which means lots of laggy frustrating sessions for a good while.

Se although we agree that matchmaking isnt fair, i dont agree with what you're saying either. You're saying that because you dont like latency you wanna just be able to host a game. Which is fine and good for you, but then its unfair on anyone who joins your room. I dont neccesserily mean YOU in particular, cos you have a good connection with good ping times to the UK, but how many shitty hosts have you seen on most games.

Halo needs servers for matchmaking to be fair. no question about it. Failing that a 'search for UK players only' option. Theres always plenty on.

[metallicfrodo]

Failing that a 'search for UK players only' option. Theres always plenty on.

What has your experience been of the Good Connection option? Where does it's algorithm fail, presuming you don't think it works well?

[Guest alisdair]

I've seen various references to Good Connection officially meaning that all players are within 200ms of each other, but I can't find an original Bungie source for it. I think 200ms is far too wide a window, and it should be 100ms instead.

[kerraig UK]

Kerraig, I'm surprised that host can be such a big deal as to completely decide matches at your level. I'll probably never be that good so it won't affect me, but if that's how it goes with high skilled teams then I can understand your complaints now.

its just really frustrating and dispiriting because I LOVE the game.

Another reason I realised people might not be experiencing it as bad as I am is because of the hours I keep. The game is MUCH worse after 1am which is around the time west coast america signs on.

Krypt and I were playing team doubles last night and consisitently beating level 40 Commanders. Until about 1am (which is the bullshit hour) when the west coast of america came online. From that point on we lost every 50/50, the enemy survived being stuck, survived a full needler clip. At one point I walked up to someone invisible with a shotgun and unloaded, only for them to turn around and assassinate me IN THE FACE with their AR.

I'm a late night player and its just ridiculous that there is a game I worship that becomes unplayable after midnight. Its Cinderella halo.

This is a game I played around 1am:

http://www.bungie.net/Stats/GameStatsHalo3...p;player=Keerok

This is a game i played around 2am when matchmaking was full of west coastt

http://www.bungie.net/Stats/GameStatsHalo3...p;player=Keerok

Now I know of course that doesnt mean much, that everyone can have a bad game and stuff. but although those guys were good players theres just no way I would have got a -10 split against them on a lan. Even when i lose bad I never lose THAT bad. That was the game where the guy survived being stuck, where he survived an invisible shotgun etc. There was no visible lag, just very obvious latency.

The thing i love about Halo is its solidity and its chess like rule set. But that solidity is very much shattered when the rules only work under certain conditions. I think its why halo 1 will forever be my favourite, because I never had to see it in a compromised state.

[kerraig UK]

I've seen various references to Good Connection officially meaning that all players are within 200ms of each other, but I can't find an original Bungie source for it. I think 200ms is far too wide a window, and it should be 100ms instead.

Good connection seems to help, but not after 1am. I agree it should search for a 100ms ping time. I'd be willing to wait a minute longer for a non bullshit game cos those are 10 minutes of my time wasted anyway.

[kerraig UK]

If you're talking about matchmaking as opposed to being able to search for customs, then part of the reason is that for matchmaking to work properly as a skill based system you need a large enough pool of players.

As it is Ste was mentioning that playing at lunch time meant that he was getting matched with much higher rated players and this is because the availabe pool of players was too small to acurately match skill levels. It's why you have the issues with PGR3 that beejay alluded to. (Although considering they have given you the option to filter on language that argument sort of goes out the window.)

Is it essential to play against Brits though? Why not set it to French, that should sort out the latency problems by playing predominently the French?

Additionally in response to one of Kerraigs points I thought that Halo 3 now gave you the option to party up with people you had just played with in matchmaking, so you could play them again, or is that only in the Social playlist?

Again, its borked. What could have been a brilliant option is rendered redundant. you get your clan together, play a social game, its close, exciting everything is cool, you wanna party up and play with those guys again. So you party up and stay in matchmaking (nobody ever wants to go customs with strangers despite me asking) but halo matchmaking sees you as one big party now and no longer recognises the two teams. So in the next game you're all jumbled up together instead of in your two original teams.

[Kryptonian]

This is a game I played around 1am:

http://www.bungie.net/Stats/GameStatsHalo3...p;player=Keerok

This is a game i played around 2am when matchmaking was full of west coastt

http://www.bungie.net/Stats/GameStatsHalo3...p;player=Keerok

You should've posted that snowbound game.

[metallicfrodo]

Another reason I realised people might not be experiencing it as bad as I am is because of the hours I keep. The game is MUCH worse after 1am which is around the time west coast america signs on.

This all comes down to the pool issue though really (which you obviously appreciate). By 1am there aren't going to be very many European players on so it's going to be very hard to match you with anyone here. I suppose that Bungie's search process has some time factor in it so that it will eventually pick those hosts even with Good Connection set.

Surely at that time, even if you had the option to search for UK hosts you'd hardly find anyone, and the likelihood of finding people at your high skill level would be very low.

[metallicfrodo]

Again, its borked. What could have been a brilliant option is rendered redundant. you get your clan together, play a social game, its close, exciting everything is cool, you wanna party up and play with those guys again. So you party up and stay in matchmaking (nobody ever wants to go customs with strangers despite me asking) but halo matchmaking sees you as one big party now and no longer recognises the two teams. So in the next game you're all jumbled up together instead of in your two original teams.

Didn't know that, which is a bit of a shame.

Maybe Bungie had assumed that at that point people might drop into customs.

[kerraig UK]

This all comes down to the pool issue though really (which you obviously appreciate). By 1am there aren't going to be very many European players on so it's going to be very hard to match you with anyone here. I suppose that Bungie's search process has some time factor in it so that it will eventually pick those hosts even with Good Connection set.

Surely at that time, even if you had the option to search for UK hosts you'd hardly find anyone, and the likelihood of finding people at your high skill level would be very low.

yeah maybe, but at that time theres still a lot of lights on on the little map, not AS many granted, but still a lot.

[Meers]

You can strategise around it though, at least at my poor skill level.

Kerraig, I'm surprised that host can be such a big deal as to completely decide matches at your level. I'll probably never be that good so it won't affect me, but if that's how it goes with high skilled teams then I can understand your complaints now.

Well whatever the terminology, it should be kept to a minimum. And that isn't the case in Halo 3.

And since when is your skill level poor? You may find it poor because you're losing a lot? Well if that's the case, has it crossed your mind yet that it may be the result of latency? I mean, you pwn me in so many other games!

I'm surprised no-one else has mentioned this. Find out which nearby country has the best connections

That would be Sweden then. 80-100 Mbit downstream anyone?

Se although we agree that matchmaking isnt fair, i dont agree with what you're saying either. You're saying that because you dont like latency you wanna just be able to host a game. Which is fine and good for you, but then its unfair on anyone who joins your room. I dont neccesserily mean YOU in particular, cos you have a good connection with good ping times to the UK, but how many shitty hosts have you seen on most games.

Halo needs servers for matchmaking to be fair. no question about it. Failing that a 'search for UK players only' option. Theres always plenty on.

No, I meant that I want to keep latency to a minimum for everyone. Whether I host or my mate doesn't matter, as long as it is someone with a good line. Not someone random from across the ocean with a 512kbit upload.

We definitely agree on the dedicated servers bit. I thought Bungie said that Halo 3 would use them? They also said it would feature fully customisable controls! They failed to deliver on both occasions.

[Jumble Jumble]

Hey Kerraig, it's ages since I played Halo with you. Shall we try and set up a LAN some time?

[Jumble Jumble]

That was a PM.

[SPE]

No. Wrong.

Lag is packet loss.

Latency is packet delay.

They are not the same thing, as I'm sure you'll agree.

No, you're wrong. I have never heard your definition, so I don't know where you got it from. Lag is the result of excessive latency, as experienced by the end user. Just Google the two terms if you don't believe me.

[Kryptonian]

[kerraig UK]

I'm definately thinking next weekend should be a lan weekend jumble. That was a PM too

[Meers]

No, you're wrong. I have never heard your definition, so I don't know where you got it from. Lag is the result of excessive latency, as experienced by the end user. Just Google the two terms if you don't believe me.

I stand corrected, sir. I was misinformed.

Lag = massive latency.

[Caprylate]

The main problem I've noticed in matchmaking is that all too often I'll win 10 games of Team Slayer in a row, not go up a single level, then lose one game, and go down a level.

Also vetoing gametypes should never provide VIP as the replacement option, infact, it shouldn't even be in matchmaking, its awful. And selecting my language is pointless as it could still match British people up with Americans, it should be replaced to my country.

[MalevolentPanda]

At the end of the day you;re talking to me like i've never played other online games. Saying no other game gives a decent or fair online experience. Thats nonsense. CoD4 gave a MUCH better online experience than halo 3.

I have to take issue with this. On the basis of the Beta, CoD 4 works exactly the same as Halo, but has no 'good connection' option, and is beset by connection issues far, far worse on average than I have encountered on Halo 3. Oh, and as far as I saw, no proper skill matching because it made matches based on experience levels, which never went down.

Ah you've misunderstood me. I'm not saying matchmaking shouldnt be there. obviously people love it. i'm just saying there should be an option to search for custom games AS WELL, for people like me who dont like it. same as every other game out there.

Fair enough, maybe I got my wires crossed. I thought you had advocated removing matchmaking altogether and just having custom games instead.

Regarding your 'Cinderella' argument about it being fine at some times and a problem at others: that's unavoidable, isn't it? I don't know what levels we're talking about here, but the graphs show that numbers rapidly dwindle at the higher levels. The system tries to match you to people of low pings but if the numbers aren't playing at those levels then it has to go for people in the US. Maybe it just isn't possible to get matches that have ideal skill levels and connections at certain times. This wouldn't be much of a revelation. There's plenty of games where it's difficult to get any games at all, regardless of how picky you are (most recently see Speedball 2-impossible to get games). If matchmaking is no good for you past a certain time, then I guess you just shouldn't play it then? Frustrating I know, but I really do think that Halo makes a pretty good fist of providing the best system for the whole of the playerbase.

[Meers]

I have to take issue with this. On the basis of the Beta, CoD 4 works exactly the same as Halo, but has no 'good connection' option, and is beset by connection issues far, far worse on average than I have encountered on Halo 3. Oh, and as far as I saw, no proper skill matching because it made matches based on experience levels, which never went down.

That's the whole issue I've got with the whole ranking thing. Why is it called 'experience'? Losing a game should not result in loss of 'experience'. On the contrary, you will learn from losing, rinse, repeat, get better and get more experienced in the process, not less.

It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Do you see?

[K]

That's the whole issue I've got with the whole ranking thing. Why is it called 'experience'? Losing a game should not result in loss of 'experience'. On the contrary, you will learn from losing, rinse, repeat, get better and get more experienced in the process, not less.

It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Do you see?

You don't lose experience if you do badly in a game, you lose it as a penalty for quitting.