The Halo 3 aftermath thread

[Philly]

I've had a sticky go through someone's leg, i though it had just crShAEd a little. Now i know it's lag, and knowing is half the battle. I've been matched with a surprising amount of the UK when i set to good connection though.

I wish there was a "your country only" option. Come on COD, don't let me down. (wishful thinking)

[MalevolentPanda]

Are you deliberately misunderstanding? What we would normally call "Matchmaking" is the system of deciding skill and looking for games with a similar level. What Kerraig is talking about when he says "matchmaking is broken" is that if he uses the matchmaking system, the skill part of which is FINE, the games themselves are sometimes broken because of the lag issue, and I suppose you could say it's a bot broken because of the fact that you can't filter for British hosts only.

Are you deliberately misunderstanding? Kerraig was complaining about matchmaking. He doesn't think it should be in the game. He has been complaining about the fact that matchmaking shouldn't be in the game and is broken for the last three years, as he himself points out. My point is that without matchmaking, Halo wouldn't be the wonderful latency free utopia that he envisages. It would be just the same as every other Live game: still affected by latency, but with the added (and more severe) problem of unequal skill levels.

The solution is matchmaking coupled with dedicated servers, but if we can't have that, then matchmaking with peer to peer is still a much better option than no matchmaking and peer to peer.

[ZOK]

Halo's lag / latency / hoodoo-voodoo issues certainly exist, but whilst they rule online Halo 3 out as an Olympic sport, they are certainly not enough to suck the fun out of it. And seeing as we don't currently have the technology to conjour up our mates / randoms and their 360s and tellies into our own front room at the click of a button, Matchmaking provides a damn good alternative.

[Guest alisdair]

Matchmaking with dedicated servers won't fix the latency problem, though. Servers will only remove host advantage. Apart from having fewer really shitty games which are down to a poor host, it would otherwise be exactly the same.

(Which is to say, it would still be totally awesome and the best online gaming experience I've ever had.)

[MalevolentPanda]

Matchmaking with dedicated servers won't fix the latency problem, though. Servers will only remove host advantage. Apart from having fewer really shitty games which are down to a poor host, it would otherwise be exactly the same.

Removing the host advantage would be fixing the latency problem really though, because it would be the best possible solution. There would still be some latency, but you couldn't really argue that it's a problem at that point unless you are just rejecting the whole idea of online games. That's what I meant by solving the problem, anyway: solving it as much as is possible.

[Sekiro]

He was aiming at you. His vision would've been looking right at you. The game doesn't always display where you're looking correctly in 3rd person

You can check this in the replay can you not from that player's perspective?

[Guest alisdair]

There would still be some latency, but you couldn't really argue that it's a problem at that point unless you are just rejecting the whole idea of online games.

As far as I can make out, that's Kerraig's argument. Surely not every failed 4-shot which looked perfect on his screen has been against the host. The host advantage isn't that bad. For example, playing a team of Americans, with one as host, the guys on the host's team will have 40ms pings to him and you'll have 150ms pings. His teammates then have a bigger latency advantage over you than a same-country host would.

You can check this in the replay can you not from that player's perspective?

First-person in replays is limited to the person who saved the film.

[Sekiro]

First-person in replays is limited to the person who saved the film.

Ahh, cheers - not noticed that before.

[Jumble Jumble]

Isn't that silly? They must have all the information they need for it.

[sir stiff_one]

That's insulting and unwarranted. It's as good as it can be. If it pisses you off so much, just don't play it - the rest of us will continue to have fun without you.

It's neither insulting nor unwarranted.

What a ridiculous post.

[sir stiff_one]

Maybe it's because I'm rubbish, maybe because I've never played offline, but in most Halo 3 games I don't have a problem with lag. Obviously there's the occasional total bullshit game where I lose every 50/50, but most games are fine.

Sure, weird shit happens: 4 BR bursts to the head and no death, shotgun to the face and I die instead, stickies that go right through people's chests. But it's part of the game, it affects everyone equally (since everyone hosts at some point), and so I just try to adjust my strategy to fit. Latency really doesn't bother me, and I can't understand why someone would call matchmaking broken because of it.

No everyone doesn't host once the good (US) hosts are sorted. It'll only get worse presumably.

The main point is - why can't we choose not to play against Americans/with Brits?

[Straps]

I don't seem to be getting anyway near as frustrated as I did with Halo 2, though I've no idea whether that was because I've simply grown to understand latency (I'd never played anything online before Halo 2) or that it's simply hidden better in Halo 3. And I didn't half get properly annyoed with Halo 2. Turning the console off in disgust, having to stop myself from chucking my controller through the TV etc.

But you can play around the latency, in a sense. I now very rarely get into situations where people can catch me off guard. It means I play a pretty defensive game, but it does give me an advantage in a sense. Likewise, I know there are situations where I've got a BR and quite simply, I'm not going to be able to kill him before he gets into cover. So I move back a bit and then catch him when he next comes out of cover. It can be annoying playing at a disadvantage to the host and those close to him, but it doesn't necessarily need to be.

[sir stiff_one]

I've had a sticky go through someone's leg, i though it had just crShAEd a little. Now i know it's lag, and knowing is half the battle. I've been matched with a surprising amount of the UK when i set to good connection though.

I wish there was a "your country only" option. Come on COD, don't let me down. (wishful thinking)

There pretty much is for everyone but the English.

[sir stiff_one]

I don't seem to be getting anyway near as frustrated as I did with Halo 2, though I've no idea whether that was because I've simply grown to understand latency (I'd never played anything online before Halo 2) or that it's simply hidden better in Halo 3. And I didn't half get properly annyoed with Halo 2. Turning the console off in disgust, having to stop myself from chucking my controller through the TV etc.

But you can play around the latency, in a sense. I now very rarely get into situations where people can catch me off guard. It means I play a pretty defensive game, but it does give me an advantage in a sense. Likewise, I know there are situations where I've got a BR and quite simply, I'm not going to be able to kill him before he gets into cover. So I move back a bit and then catch him when he next comes out of cover. It can be annoying playing at a disadvantage to the host and those close to him, but it doesn't necessarily need to be.

I think it's a lot better than Halo 2, for sure. It's mostly ok, especially earlier in the night.

[BeeJay]

As far as I can make out, that's Kerraig's argument. Surely not every failed 4-shot which looked perfect on his screen has been against the host. The host advantage isn't that bad. For example, playing a team of Americans, with one as host, the guys on the host's team will have 40ms pings to him and you'll have 150ms pings. His teammates then have a bigger latency advantage over you than a same-country host would.

I think the real issue is that don't have enough control. You might get a local host with a good connection and you might get all of his team mates playing in mongolia with 200ms pings. The point is that you can't control that.

I can't see how matchmaking and being able to choose host are compatible. Most other games forego matchmaking in favour of being able to choose host.

You either have to have the current setup or go to dedicated servers.

EDIT; That started as a reply to alisdair but ended up somewhere else entirely.

[sir stiff_one]

But why not have the option to just play other people in the UK?

You can split all the other countries up (pretty much) using language.

[Guest alisdair]

Isn't that basically what "Good Connection" should do, if it was implemented correctly? I mean, maybe not UK only, but certainly east-coast US and western Europe only. As in, no more than 100ms end-to-end.

[kerraig UK]

Sure, weird shit happens: 4 BR bursts to the head and no death, shotgun to the face and I die instead, stickies that go right through people's chests. But it's part of the game, it affects everyone equally (since everyone hosts at some point), and so I just try to adjust my strategy to fit. Latency really doesn't bother me, and I can't understand why someone would call matchmaking broken because of it.

erm, you just mentioned 3 good reasons why its broken

[kerraig UK]

Erm, you can? Which games allow you to see whether games are hosted in the UK before you join them then?

Halo's 'good connection' option does far more to limit connection troubles than any other Live game I've played. I'm usually matched against UK people, and proper lag is very rare outside of BTB. Even if what you are saying was true, who wins in online shooters is far more dependent on skill than it is latency. In every other online game you'd be matched against people of widely varying skill levels, which would provide much worse games than matchmaking does. Of course latency is frustrating when you have evenly matched teams and it's connections that determines the outcome: everyone knows that. You wouldn't often be in a position where latency determined outcomes without matchmaking, not because there wouldn't be any latency, but because you wouldn't get as far as having evenly matched teams in the first place.

Erm, but that directly contradicts your previous paragraph.

sigh, the amount of times ive had this conversation...

firstly, i'm not talking lag, i'm talking latency. Big difference.

secondly, there are HUNDREDS of games that allow you to look for server by country. From counter strike to warcraft. Of course they are all on the PC. On the 360 theres only really the burnouts. BUT, on every other 360 game if you join a room and its bullshit you can just leave and search again. In halo you're stuck with whatever matchmaking gives you.

EVEN WORSE, even if you do find a room that has a great connection for you, matchmaking will move you on after one game. In every other game on 360 you're allowed to stick with good parties when you find them.

At the end of the day you;re talking to me like i've never played other online games. Saying no other game gives a decent or fair online experience. Thats nonsense. CoD4 gave a MUCH better online experience than halo 3. With halo 3 its the GAME thats magnificent. I play halo online DESPITE its broken matching system, not because of it.

[kerraig UK]

Are you deliberately misunderstanding? Kerraig was complaining about matchmaking. He doesn't think it should be in the game. He has been complaining about the fact that matchmaking shouldn't be in the game and is broken for the last three years, as he himself points out. My point is that without matchmaking, Halo wouldn't be the wonderful latency free utopia that he envisages. It would be just the same as every other Live game: still affected by latency, but with the added (and more severe) problem of unequal skill levels.

The solution is matchmaking coupled with dedicated servers, but if we can't have that, then matchmaking with peer to peer is still a much better option than no matchmaking and peer to peer.

Ah you've misunderstood me. I'm not saying matchmaking shouldnt be there. obviously people love it. i'm just saying there should be an option to search for custom games AS WELL, for people like me who dont like it. same as every other game out there.

[kerraig UK]

Matchmaking with dedicated servers won't fix the latency problem, though. Servers will only remove host advantage. Apart from having fewer really shitty games which are down to a poor host, it would otherwise be exactly the same.

(Which is to say, it would still be totally awesome and the best online gaming experience I've ever had.)

removing host advantage is all i want. With halo 2 once our team reached the level 40's EVERY SINGLE game was determined by who got host at the start.

[Silence]

I'd imagine the cost of having dedicated host servers would be astronomical for something as popular as Halo 3, and over a period of time would quickly eat into the profits of Halo 3.

However, a possible solution to this would be to introduce a subsription model for Halo 3 for those people who want to play on dedicated servers. Pay $5-10 month and you get to play against other subscribers, otherwise you play on P2P.

[Guest alisdair]

There is another option: player-provided dedicated server support for custom games. Someone hosts the game on their 360 but can't play at the same time. I think some Ubisoft games support this, maybe R6:V?

I can't see how you'd integrate it with matchmaking, though. I doubt it'll happen.

[CrispinG]

I caved in and bought it. The singleplayer is too hard; I gave up. Multiplayer is full of retards and nobody works in a team. It's going back.

[sir stiff_one]

Why is the world so difficult?!

[Uzi]

I caved in and bought it. The singleplayer is too hard; I gave up. Multiplayer is full of retards and nobody works in a team. It's going back.

Too hard? Normal is like playing it with your eyes closed. And then there's easy. If you found easy too hard, just give up on gaming.

If you sucked so much as SP, you would have hated MP if you gave it more time

[Asura]

Just to say, I think this problem will get better over time. Dead or Alive 2/4 are my evidence. When it first started, everyone was yelling and shouting about how crap it was due to lag. Soon, everyone with shit connections who complained just decided to stop playing, it took about 4 weeks. After that, the game became far more playable.

Erm, you can? Which games allow you to see whether games are hosted in the UK before you join them then?

Well, Lost Planet and DOA4. Beyond those, I'm not so sure.

[CrispinG]

Too hard? Normal is like playing it with your eyes closed. And then there's easy. If you found easy too hard, just give up on gaming.

If you sucked so much as SP, you would have hated MP if you gave it more time

Well I was playing it on Heroic (the way Halo is meant to be played, said the menu!) and just got totally stuck early on in the jungle with the friendly alien. He keeps rushing in with his sword, getting himself killed, then I get sniped. Same thing happened to me with Halo 2, except it was boredom and not frustration.

[Uzi]

Well I was playing it on Heroic (the way Halo is meant to be played, said the menu!) and just got totally stuck early on in the jungle with the friendly alien. He keeps rushing in with his sword, getting himself killed, then I get sniped. Same thing happened to me with Halo 2, except it was boredom and not frustration.

Put it down to normal than surely?

[kerraig UK]

Just to say, I think this problem will get better over time. Dead or Alive 2/4 are my evidence. When it first started, everyone was yelling and shouting about how crap it was due to lag. Soon, everyone with shit connections who complained just decided to stop playing, it took about 4 weeks. After that, the game became far more playable.

Well, Lost Planet and DOA4. Beyond those, I'm not so sure.

Played halo 2 online for 3 years dude. it didnt get better it got worse as people learned ways to manipulate host to their advantage more and more.

heres a little anecdote about how bad matchmaking tips the balance in favour of host. My good friend Phillip landed a job working in the IT dept of goldman sachs being paid £40k a year based ENTIRELY on knowledge of networking gained from researching ways to manipulate host in Halo 2 because he was so sick of every single game being lost due to latency.