The Halo 3 aftermath thread

[Meers]

I would like to post the disclaimer first, before I get lynched by the rllmuk mob: I like certain aspects of Halo 3 very much, BUT there's also something fundamentally wrong with its Matchmaking design. Here's why:

First of all, Matchmaking and its ranking 'system'. I deliberately have put 'system' between apostrophes because I think it does not resemble a person's Halo 3 skill at all. Unlike the TrueSkill ranking system found in, say, some Ubisoft games, Halo 3 uses a numbered ranking system (called the Matchmaking skill) that starts at 1 and is unique to each ranked playlist; team doubles, slayer, etc.

Now picture this: I could spend a few weeks in ranked slayer, get playing experience and become very good at it and be a rank...I dunno...30 or something. Bottom line is; I'm 1337. But then, say, Kerraig would invite me to play some ranked team doubles. He's 1337 anyhow, so the two of us would be very likely to kick some ass. But neither of us hasn't played team doubles before, so it's here where it goes all wrong.

The Matchmaking skill level for team doubles is still set to 1 for both of us, so we are getting 'matched' against 2 players with the same rank. How do we know whether it's their first time on the game or not? How do they know how good or bad we are? We can't tell, because our team doubles levels are all set to 1. But whilst we're playing each other, it becomes clear that we are handing their arses to them. It's not fair to them because we have been playing the game for weeks now and have a lot of playtime experience. They only got the game yesterday and are new to the whole thing, but the 'system' is still pitting us against each other.

Unless I'm completely wrong and missing the point completely, can someone please point out what's so 'good' and 'fair' about Bungie's Matchmaking system, using the example above? Because it has happened to me every night - either we get owned or we own them.

Right, then there's a second issue on my list: The net code.

It just can't handle it, can it? Halo 3 online suffers from more latency than I've ever experienced on the 360. It either does a shit job of hiding it (like the CoD games or RS: Vegas) or it just can't cope with the fast-paced action. It stresses me out to no end, to the point I start swearing like a drunken sailor. Usually I don't swear (only for comedic effect) when playing games 'cos I'm rather laid back, but the Halo series got the worst out of me. Have a look at this little clip called 'what the fuck?!'. Latency all over the place, especially when I fire that 2nd rocket.

The 'system' fails at determining the person with the best connection at times, because when we want to watch a replay, the thing tells us that Smith has the fastest line one day, when I'm the fastest one the next day.

Numerous times I've shouted that it will be traded in for CoD4 later, just because of these issues I'm having with it. I am of the opinion that this whole 'look for the best connection' thing is a failed attempt at trying something new over 'the party leader is the connection host' of old. This whole matchmaking thing could have only worked with dedicated regional servers, which they promised us, but didn't deliver.

So, what are your thoughts on this?

[Puck]

I see how the ranking thing is less than ideal, but in your scenario, you and your mate would soon progreess up through the ranks and be pitted more fairly against opponents.

As for lag, I haven't really experienced anything too bad - just a few of games have suffered. This aspect, at least, is something that I'm sure will get better.

[DarhkFox]

WTF does it take so long to matchmake? it really puts me off from playing.

[K]

WTF does it take so long to matchmake? it really puts me off from playing.

Is your NAT open?

[Guest alisdair]

Because of the way the experience system works, you're unlikely to be paired up against total noobs in a new playlist -- matchmaking takes your highest skill and experience into account when setting up games. Even if it does go a bit wrong, they'll look at your shiny Lieutenant badges in the lobby and know they're in for a drubbing.

Having separate ranks for each playlist is important as well. I'm pretty high-ranked in Lone Wolves, because I'm doing okay at free-for-all games. I'm still pretty rubbish at Team Slayer and Team Objective, so my ranks there are much lower. Put me in something different again, like Team Tactical, and I probably won't get above rank 5 for ages. Just because you're good on one playlist doesn't make you good on the others, the playing style for each is totally different.

The latency thing is weird. Most of my matches have been totally fine. Occasionally there will be the bullshit game where nothing connects properly, and this is much more noticeable in Halo because of the close range weapons and melee and the slightly-nerfed sniper and BR auto-aim. But in general, with 4v4 games, lag hasn't been a problem, especially since I started playing 8-player customs. The COD4 beta was much worse for me.

Big Team Battle has been a constant lagfest since it went to 8v8, though, it's proper rubbish now. Which is a shame, since you really need 6 players for Valhalla and Sandtrap, so there's not much chance to play those maps except in custom games.

[Exidor]

The Matchmaking skill level for team doubles is still set to 1 for both of us, so we are getting 'matched' against 2 players with the same rank. How do we know whether it's their first time on the game or not? How do they know how good or bad we are? We can't tell, because our team doubles levels are all set to 1.

You can see a player's highest rank across all game types by highlighting their name in the playlist and pressing A. It doesn't help much because, by the time you can see this, you've already been matched and the game is loading. At least you get some warning though.

[Lorfarius]

The beauty of matchmaking and Bungie is that they always stay in touch with the community and will make changes as time goes on. I'd expect a new update within the next month so theres a good chance several matchmaking issues will be fixed.

I've been playing matchmaking pretty much everyday since launch and I have only encountered 2 matches in all that time that had issues with lag. The offending person left in both cases and everything was fine. Even then it didnt slow the game down just stuttered their voice during chat. Are you sure it isn't down to your connection?

[Straps]

Latency has been no better or worse than in any other online game I've played. It's more prevalent than in Halo 2, mind, but that's because they reduced the stupidly fucking massive hit boxes. Latency is in itself an issue that can never be fixed, but the so-obvious-you-can't-believe-they-didn't-implement-it work around would be to giving us an option to search by closest host. It's ridiculous that they've been so stubborn as to think they didn't have to put it in.

Anyway, you are right about the matchmaking system and it's flaws. Unfortunately, it's kind of necessary. For example, players may be good at slayer but absolute wank at objective gametypes (I've seen it first hand plenty of times) so the rank does need to reflect that. It goes to pot when you get amazing players who go into a playlist at level one, but in theory they'll rank up pretty fucking quickly leaving the lower levels alone.

The only thing I don't like about about Halo 3 online (apart from BTB being unranked) is the new melee, which means that even if you hit a split second before the other guy and his shields are past the point where you can kill, the other guy still has a chance to kill you with a melee. Which is wank, obviously.

[Transient Curse]

The only thing I don't like about about Halo 3 online (apart from BTB being unranked) is the new melee, which means that even if you hit a split second before the other guy and his shields are past the point where you can kill, the other guy still has a chance to kill you with a melee. Which is wank, obviously.

I don't understand Melee-ing on Halo3 at all. I constantly lose out when I get up close.

[Lothar Hex]

I find the matchmaking works, for the most part. Though every now and then I seem to get matched up with people who have about 120 ranked games under their belt. I've only got about 50.

I've only encountered 2 or 3 games in total with bad lag though. No problems on the rest. Well apart from that co-op game when Smith was downloading a video.

[Meers]

The latency thing is weird. Most of my matches have been totally fine. Occasionally there will be the bullshit game where nothing connects properly, and this is much more noticeable in Halo because of the close range weapons and melee and the slightly-nerfed sniper and BR auto-aim. But in general, with 4v4 games, lag hasn't been a problem, especially since I started playing 8-player customs. The COD4 beta was much worse for me.

Big Team Battle has been a constant lagfest since it went to 8v8, though, it's proper rubbish now. Which is a shame, since you really need 6 players for Valhalla and Sandtrap, so there's not much chance to play those maps except in custom games.

Then I have no idea what's going on. CoD4 beta was smooth for me bar for the sporadic hiccup. Same with Vegas. Then Halo 3 comes along and shows some of the most inconsistent connections I have ever witnessed this generation.

You can see a player's highest rank across all game types by highlighting their name in the playlist and pressing A. It doesn't help much because, by the time you can see this, you've already been matched and the game is loading. At least you get some warning though.

That's well shit then. I want to see one rank, immediately, without any button pressing. Another thing; why do you drop in rank? it's not that you become a worse player just because you lose? Experience, in my book, comes from the amount of playtime you've put in it. Even if you lose, you'll learn from it, thus becoming stronger/better.

Are you sure it isn't down to your connection?

I have no idea. I'm on a pretty fast one (20/4) so maybe my ping is higher, but no-one complains about latency when I'm hosting a 14/16-player match of Vegas or GRAW. 16-player custom games in Halo 3 are often laggy at my end as well. So is it my connection or Bungie's net code?

[Space Renegade Ulala]

I don't understand Melee-ing on Halo3 at all. I constantly lose out when I get up close.

50-50s should be renamed 90-10s. I don't think I'll ever quite understand them.

[Sir DangerM]

I don't understand Melee-ing on Halo3 at all. I constantly lose out when I get up close.

Snipe like a fanny instead, then.

[Ste Pickford]

Does the system rate your ability, or just the number of games you play?

I've not played it a great deal, but the few games I've played I've been badly beaten because I'm rubbish at aiming. I presume I'm playing other new players who are better at aiming and have played other Halos before but are new to Halo 3.

EXP goes up for me. If I continue in this fashion will my increased EXP matchmake me with increasingly better players despite my low scores, or will my low scores matchmake me with other low scoring players, despite my increasing EXP?

Or is it based on some more complex mix of the two (or other) values?

[Isaac]

I still don't actually understand how my skill rating works.

Does it go up by 1 each win and down by 1?

Or do you get a skill point every time you come top of the game?

Could someone maybe explain it to me?

[Sir DangerM]

Does the system rate your ability, or just the number of games you play?

I've not played it a great deal, but the few games I've played I've been badly beaten because I'm rubbish at aiming. I presume I'm playing other new players who are better at aiming and have played other Halos before but are new to Halo 3.

EXP goes up for me. If I continue in this fashion will my increased EXP matchmake me with increasingly better players despite my low scores, or will my low scores matchmake me with other low scoring players, despite my increasing EXP?

Or is it based on some more complex mix of the two (or other) values?

In ranked games its based around a mix of your EXP (indicated by the badge by your name), your skill in that playlist (the number by your name), and your highest skill in any playlist (select a player in the lobby to see this). It doesnt always work that well though...

I still don't actually understand how my skill rating works.

Does it go up by 1 each win and down by 1?

Or do you get a skill point every time you come top of the game?

Could someone maybe explain it to me?

EXP goes up by one with each win. Your skill rating is calculated by loads of things, you can win loads of team games and not go up for ages if you play like shit.

[Meers]

Does the system rate your ability, or just the number of games you play?

It rates your win-loss ratio, not your actual playtime in combination with that, which it should be doing. Or a ranking through all playlists would be fairer as well.

[Straps]

I don't understand Melee-ing on Halo3 at all. I constantly lose out when I get up close.

http://www.bungie.net/News/content.aspx?ty...s&cid=12834

Too many people to list asked,

Why is it my sniper lags, or my melee fails, or blah blah blah…

What you’re seeing is roughly the same situation as you would have in Halo 2, but with movies and screenshots available to examine this stuff, you’re seeing more alleged injustice on a frame by frame basis. The sniper IS harder to use now, so sack up, it requires more skill. The melee attack is more fair, since in cases of true simultaneous attack, the guy with more health wins.

Except 'true simultaneous attack' isn't quite true, there's actually a small window of opportunity either side of the first hit. Basically, I've played enough off-host Halo 2 to know when I need to press B to kill someone. It doesn't work all the time, obviously, as sometimes latency will get in the way and I'll die. But now, even if you get the timing right and send your melee down the wires off to the host and it arrives there first, if you've got even a slither less health than the other dude, then if his melee gets to the host within however long it is, then you'll die. Try it offline. I'm not suggesting the window is massive, but it's there.

I'm a complete spaz at super-close range anyway so I've tried to avoid those conflicts completely, but it's annoying when you do get into them and you know you shouldn't

[Guest alisdair]

I don't understand Melee-ing on Halo3 at all. I constantly lose out when I get up close.

An uncontested melee will drop your shields, or kill you if your shields are less than about 60% full. For two melees at the same time (according to the host, so really it's within about 150ms), the player with less shields/health will die and the other player will be left with no shields.

That's well shit then. I want to see one rank, immediately, without any button pressing.

You do, you see the skill for the current playlist, and the military rank for the player. Seeing their highest rank can be informative, but generally the military rank is more useful - if they're a major, but have skill 10, they're probably just new to the playlist and will kill you in the face.

Another thing; why do you drop in rank? it's not that you become a worse player just because you lose? Experience, in my book, comes from the amount of playtime you've put in it. Even if you lose, you'll learn from it, thus becoming stronger/better.

The skill system is for deciding how good you are compared to other players. It's a finite range, 1--50, so if you lose to a player who is currently rated as equal or poorer skill than you, you lose rank and they gain. I don't think it's a closed system, but it's something like that. How badly you lose also matters - if your team loses, but you end up +10 and get MVP, you probably won't de-rank.

You gain a fractional number of skill points for winning, and drop a fractional number for losing. You can move multiple skill levels with one victory or loss, depending on how well or badly you played. Bungie don't describe how they calculate skill changes, but I think it's similar to the published TrueSkill algorithm.

Does the system rate your ability, or just the number of games you play?

It's both. The skill rating is the estimate of how good you are -- a level 10 player should normally beat a level 5 player. The experience (i.e. the number of games won) is used as a weighting. So the system can be more sure about the skill of someone with 200EXP than another player with only 30EXP. This is taken into account in matchmaking.

[Ste Pickford]

EXP goes up by one with each win.

What is a win exactly? I've never come 1st in a game, but my EXP has gone up a couple of times.

[Guest alisdair]

A win is either victory or a draw in a team game, or finishing in the top half of a free-for-all game.

[Meers]

Why do we HAVE to push the direction pad to talk in matchmaking?

Well, you don’t always, but there are a few reasons. One is the endless chatter becomes distracting for some players. More importantly, the amount of bandwidth used for non-stop chat (whether folks are talking or not) is far better allocated to the game. This phenomenon is playlist dependant. For example, Team Slayer 4x4 games have open voice, while Big team Battle requires PTT.

I call bullshit on this. Other games manage just fine. Crap net code it is, then.

[Puck]

What is a win exactly? I've never come 1st in a game, but my EXP has gone up a couple of times.

I think your K/D ratio for each game is quite important in determining your ranking and experience gain/loss.

[metallicfrodo]

What is a win exactly? I've never come 1st in a game, but my EXP has gone up a couple of times.

EDIT: Sorry misread Ste's question and thought he was asking about your skill rating which is what I have then waffled on about.....

If you're talking about lone wolf and it works as it did in Halo 2 then it will be positions 1 and 2 or 3, and loss points for 4, 5 and 6. These aren't the acutally figures but it would be something like.

1st +2

2nd +3

3rd +1

4th -1

4th -2

5th -3

This is complicated more by the ranks of other people you are playing against and the fact that there are % changes to what you gain based on your rank. When you are a low rank you will only loss a percentage of what you should lose (which is why my figures as seen above are only for reference).

Bungie explained what the system they were using when Halo 2 came out, I think the system for Halo 3 is very similar (possibly with some additionally calculations based on the additional corporal stuff), it's either the TrueSkill system or closely based on it. I'll see if I can find the post about it on bungie net.

EDIT: Found it

They haven't done this kind of break down for Halo 3 but I would imagine it works along the same lines

Stats Overview

[Lorfarius]

What is a win exactly? I've never come 1st in a game, but my EXP has gone up a couple of times.

If you are on a team and that teams wins or ties then you get 1 EXP. If you lose you get nothing.

[Frankie Lee]

I've only just started to enjoy playing Halo online. I've given up on ever being any good, realised that I will never find that magic aiming spot that downs your opponents in one hit (that everyone else seems to have found), and settled for just running around, throwing grenades and trying to melee everyone. My stats have improved immensely, and so has the fun.

Not really a testament to the design of the game though.

[Guest alisdair]

Awesome. If anyone else finds the magic aiming spot, be sure to post about it in the Weapons Thread!

[footle]

If you're talking about lone wolf and it works as it did in Halo 2 then it will be positions 1 and 2 or 3, and loss points for 4, 5 and 6. These aren't the acutally figures but it would be something like.

1st +2

2nd +3

3rd +1

4th -1

4th -2

5th -3

Your EXP doesn't go down unless you quit out of a ranked team game. Or you get dropped due to mad latency issues (see my -3 EXP points).

[Lorfarius]

Awesome. If anyone else finds the magic aiming spot, be sure to post about it in the Weapons Thread!

You mean the other players head?

[metallicfrodo]

Your EXP doesn't go down unless you quit out of a ranked team game. Or you get dropped due to mad latency issues (see my -3 EXP points).

I was talking about how you are ranked rather than EXP which is linked to your grade, sorry I misread Ste's question.