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The Escapist: Zero Punctuation


Jarik
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And of course at the end of the day it also boils down to personal preference. Sprite Machine and Yahtzee can defend or deride motion controls all they like, but I only care about whether I like it. And so far I haven't played a single game where I actually liked using motion controls or a pointer.

I'm not saying you have to, but blanket dismissal of the entire concept of any type of motion or pointing control implies that you don't think you ever will find a use of it that you do like, for anything, ever. I find that weird!

I think you'll find that was the joke :)

Humour circuits failure, sorry. ;)

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I'm not saying you have to, but blanket dismissal of the entire concept of any type of motion or pointing control implies that you don't think you ever will find a use of it that you do like, for anything, ever. I find that weird!
thus far

This. I did say 'so far' in that post. Did you skim read my post, Sprite? :)

Who knows maybe with better quality (more precise / better implemented) waggle I will be convinced of its benefits sometime in the future. But so far I don't like it at all, and that's why I tend to dismiss it as a needless gimmick that does nothing to enhance my gaming fun.

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That wouldn't be blanket dismissal of the concept if it was only 'thus far'. It does seem to me that a lot of gamers simply don't want any part of it, now or ever, regardless of how good or suitable a use it is.

URRRRGH CHRIST

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Who knows maybe with better quality (more precise / better implemented) waggle I will be convinced of its benefits sometime in the future. But so far I don't like it at all, and that's why I tend to dismiss it as a needless gimmick that does nothing to enhance my gaming fun.

But there are already examples where the benefits are clear and obvious. For example, you simply could not do Wii Sports Resort with a normal control pad, not to mention virtually anything that uses a cross-hair is immeasuably improved by having a pointing device. Now, if you simply don't like those types of games, then that's one thing, but why would that make it a gimmick? I mean, I don't like playing RTSs. As a genre, they do nothing for me. However, a mouse is definitely the best way to play them. That doesn't mean the mouse as a control device is a "needless gimmick" just because it's best at controlling games I don't like.

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Assuming this is a serious answer, are you stating this from experience? New 3D tech shouldn't give you eye fatigue, assuming the kit is working properly. It's how we already see the world. I've sat in a cinema to watch Avatar for three hours and the only thing fatigued was my numb arse.

He says 3D "adds nothing", but that's factually incorrect. It adds depth. I am just generally confused by the amount of rejection it gets from tech-savvy, immersion-seeking, games-loving people (like us lot). Movie purists, I can understand. But gamers? I don't get it.

Then there's his comments on motion control, which mention that buttons are a more direct way to control things, but that isn't actually true. Buttons are an abstraction, inherently limited to two states, on or off. Now this is fine for binary actions, and 'waggling' obviously isn't a good substitute for that, but it dismisses so many posibilities outright, ignoring the benefits of direct and precise control with a range of movements. Even something as simple and effortless as pointing can make a lot of games and interfaces immeasurably improved.

Fair enough, if it was a round of embarrassingly bad E3 presentations (I didn't catch much of it) then it's worth having a humourous rant about it, as he does so well. Perhaps this discussion is best explored in a dedicated topic.

It's because "hardcore" gamers are the most reactionary conservative beings on the planet.

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Controls are a funny thing that there's no absolute that will work with everything- some people become afraid because they thing certain schemes might become absolute- like motion controls becoming popular enough to override other options eventually.

The thing is, I strictly believe we need a massive variation of control schemes to get the best out of games. Street Fighter wouldn't be anywhere near the game it is for a lot of people if you couldn't use arcade sticks- music games have their own interface which works for them, I think certain first person and third person action games have worked wonderfully with pointing (Metroid, RE4) but I think certain other games would not. A game like Halo has become built around it's feel of weight and gravity of the movement on the sticks- it's why it felt so wrong on the PC when I played it and I honestly think pointer controls would lessen the experience there. Monster Hunter on the Wii had a set of controls mapped to the wiimote and nunchuck and loads of people hated it- thankfully an awesome classic controller scheme was put in too. Phew! I think a game like Demon Souls would be horrible with the move controller for similar reasons.

It's interesting because we're getting games like Killzone 3 where you can use the pad or move- which is the absolute right way to take it as there seems to be no downside- everyone is pleased and the option to switch up to either at any point is brilliant. As long as we have this diversity and choice of control methods, I don't mind at all. One thing that'll be a bit weird is when the move players play online with the dual shock 3 guys- I wonder if that will lead to some imbalance of some sorts.

I think the 3DS will be awesome too, and you can turn it right down to 2D if you don't like the effect. Brilliant product. My only concern for normal TV 3D is the TV part. I want to play games in 3D but not at the considerable expense of a new TV. So it remains a feature that might as well not be there for now. Meh. I think it's just another tick on the list of things the PS3 does on the box rather than something exciting- Nintendo have found a way for everyone to practically enjoy it.

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It's because "hardcore" gamers are the most reactionary conservative beings on the planet.

Can you not just accept that not everyone likes motion controls as much as you do?

Do we have to call people reactionary and conservative?

If you've used motion controls, and found they're not for you, are you still required to not dislike them?

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Arguably twin sticks provide direct and precise control.

Not true. Wii Sports and Wii Sports Resort are both better games because the motion control. But they require generally large clear movements. Mario Galaxy could be done on buttons, but the odd bits of motion control lend it a tactile feel. The pointer has been generally more successful than the motion controls.

Current systems are not capable of detecting subtle movements, or have high degrees of accuracy. That'll change and eventually it'd be much easier to perform things like a feint in a football game with a flick of the wrist than a complicated button press.

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It's because "hardcore" gamers are the most reactionary conservative beings on the planet.

We used to be so open to new experiences, which is why I find it weird now. People who love games, like us lot, used to get excited about new and weird things. Marraccas, brilliant! A fishing rod, fantastic! Eyetoy, cool! Dancemats, yay! A pair of bongos and a microphone to control a pinball army game, mental, I want one!

It's possible my memory is playing tricks on me; perhaps it was only ever a minority that showed an interest in all that stuff. Even if it wasn't any good, at least there was interest, a spark of excitement over the possibilities. Now the common reaction seems to be "will it make Gears of War any better? No? Fuck off then."

I could just be paying too much attention to Meh, mind you.

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Can you not just accept that not everyone likes motion controls as much as you do?

Do we have to call people reactionary and conservative?

If you've used motion controls, and found they're not for you, are you still required to not dislike them?

I never said you had to like them.

But it's not just about motion controls. It's about say, the hate directed at The Wind Waker's graphics when it first came out, or moaning about tiny change x to a favoured game system. Some of those things are eventually absorbed and accepted. That is not incompatiable with conversativism, but its tough to argue hardcore gamers are wonderfully progressive in outlook.

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If you've used motion controls, and found they're not for you, are you still required to not dislike them?

It's rather broad a concept to dislike in itself, so I would say "yes, you are required to not dislike them". Bluntly.

I think Yahtzee's spot on, it's all about the games, so if you don't like all that happy families type games then none of this motion control bollocks is for you because the games are absolute shit.

You're equating one with the other, though, which was my point. Or are you joking too? I can't tell anymore. :)

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The irony being that pointer controls totally could make Gears of War better.

If it was built from the ground up, yes, very possibly.

But with Kinect, it won't be because it won't be mass market enough.

It's rather broad a concept to dislike in itself

:)

So far it's been one controller, actually.

And people aren't really convinced by the real benefits of the others, SO FAR.

We used to be so open to new experiences, which is why I find it weird now.

It's nothing to do with being open to new experiences or not, it's about trying out the new experiences and not liking them.

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I never said you had to like them.

But it's not just about motion controls. It's about say, the hate directed at The Wind Waker's graphics when it first came out, or moaning about tiny change x to a favoured game system. Some of those things are eventually absorbed and accepted. That is not incompatiable with conversativism, but its tough to argue hardcore gamers are wonderfully progressive in outlook.

How can you be progressive about it after a couple of years worth of repeatedly miserable applications of the technology, which two competing brands are then trying to claim their own? When the Wii started out a lot of people were ecstatic, sure there were people who didn't like it, but in the end it worked. Then nothing happened. That initial spark worked, but the Wii never evolved into the uber-replacement we were led to believe initially.

Worse, all attempts to do so were half-baked, lacked fidelity or degenerated into waggling even with the best intentions. So why on earth are people surprised that after years of open testing, they are not sold on the concept of extending these controls to different platforms? Let alone the games it will bring.

Personally, I'm kind of interested in the Move as Sony seems to be making a real effort of integrating it into the type of games that never came to fruition on the Wii, but even then it still feels more as attempt #2234b to maybe get it right, rather than a calculated effort to just do it. Seriously, anybody against it just seems to be of the "once bitten twice shy" variety (the same with 3D which people more or less already have some experience with, whether it be a ViewMaster, Avatar or - heaven forbid - the Virtual Boy). There's no need to convince or open up people, they have already sampled generally what is to be expected and that is stronger than any kind of wonderful talk about how much better it will be.

The only way to make this work, is to let the new stuff do what it is supposed to do flawlessly. And until 3DS, Kinect and Move are available there's no need to argue about whether or not you should be more positive about those technologies.

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:)

So far it's been one controller, actually.

One controller isn't motion control. Motion control is a concept, and a fairly broad one. I don't know why you're rolling your eyes.

And people aren't really convinced by the real benefits of the others, SO FAR.

So you keep saying. I'm referring to people who are against it in general. I don't think you personally are close-minded.

Tell me, though, do you not see the benefit of Kinect in Harmonix's dancing game? You couldn't do that game any other way. Surely that's the definition of a benefit, if not necessarily a benefit to you (if you don't like dancing games).

It's nothing to do with being open to new experiences or not, it's about trying out the new experiences and not liking them.

Again, that bit's not directed at you. It's directed at people who actually aren't open to new experiences any more, that I have noticed in increasing numbers.

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Seriously, anybody against it just seems to be of the "once bitten twice shy" variety

Could be, but even that is a narrow view. It's not like technologies and techniques don't improve with new iterations. I hardly think we've seen the entirety of what motion control can do already.

I think it is largely the Wii's fault, though. It positioned itself as the antithesis of normal 'progress', whereas past instances of interface progress had gone hand in hand with graphics tech. Effectively it said "the reason there are no games you like is because of motion control", even though that's not really the case, and so it created an association in people's minds, which, when brought to the surface again with things like Move and Kinect, made people instinctively reject it on an emotional level.

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Could be, but even that is a narrow view. It's not like technologies and techniques don't improve with new iterations. I hardly think we've seen the entirety of what motion control can do already.

I think it is largely the Wii's fault, though. It positioned itself as the antithesis of normal 'progress', whereas past instances of interface progress had gone hand in hand with graphics tech. Effectively it said "the reason there are no games you like is because of motion control", even though that's not really the case, and so it created an association in people's minds, which, when brought to the surface again with things like Move and Kinect, made people instinctively reject it on an emotional level.

TBH I reject Kinect because it's EyeToy. :)

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We used to be so open to new experiences, which is why I find it weird now. People who love games, like us lot, used to get excited about new and weird things. Marraccas, brilliant! A fishing rod, fantastic! Eyetoy, cool! Dancemats, yay! A pair of bongos and a microphone to control a pinball army game, mental, I want one!

It's possible my memory is playing tricks on me; perhaps it was only ever a minority that showed an interest in all that stuff. Even if it wasn't any good, at least there was interest, a spark of excitement over the possibilities. Now the common reaction seems to be "will it make Gears of War any better? No? Fuck off then."

I could just be paying too much attention to Meh, mind you.

I totally agree with this. I don't know if people just have too much novelty plastic in their houses these days, or if it's because the focus of these new peripherals and technologies has changed. Games like Samba de Amigo, Donkey Kong Jungle Beat, Sega Bass Fishing and Odama were all aimed at core gamers because there wasn't really an expanded market at that stage. Nowadays people just think they're for their mum, dad or little sister and don't bother.

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Nobody every really did a game which used Motion Plus for decent gestural control. That's always been the thing I was most looking forward to seeing it used for, there's always too much emphasis on 1:1 control at the expense of more subtle uses. Maybe someone will do something interesting with Move.

There's a degree of gestural stuff in Wii Sports Resort, half-masked as 1:1. Table tennis isn't really 1:1. Also, there's that WiiWare gladiator game where MotionPlus makes the gestural controls more accurate. Doesn't Red Steel 2 have a gestural-based system for swordplay, too?

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Worse, all attempts to do so were half-baked, lacked fidelity or degenerated into waggling even with the best intentions. So why on earth are people surprised that after years of open testing, they are not sold on the concept of extending these controls to different platforms? Let alone the games it will bring.

That'd be because the hardcore gamers have equally conservative publishers serving them. If the Wii had 360 graphics, there would have been more cross overs and more development on the Wii more by more talented teams. Not all Wii games are as bad as made out though. Some people have decided that all waggle is shit and will dismiss accordingly.

The only way to make this work, is to let the new stuff do what it is supposed to do flawlessly. And until 3DS, Kinect and Move are available there's no need to argue about whether or not you should be more positive about those technologies.

Nonsense. We've lived, and continue to live with less than perfect technology in all sorts of places. As long as there is a good amount of fun then we get by and await the future. If the Wii had have went the way of the Dreamcast, half the haters here would be praising Nintendo's crazy console and listing all sorts of games as minor classics. My mate has a freely admitted irrational hatred of the Wii because it pushed the 360 to the back of game and sidelined real shooty games. I suspect that he's not the only one sharing that psychosis.

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There's a degree of gestural stuff in Wii Sports Resort, half-masked as 1:1. Table tennis isn't really 1:1. Also, there's that WiiWare gladiator game where MotionPlus makes the gestural controls more accurate. Doesn't Red Steel 2 have a gestural-based system for swordplay, too?

They all encourage you do perform full motions though. I mean something which just asks for simple up/down/left/right/stab/whatever motions without pretending you need to do the full motion.

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We used to be so open to new experiences, which is why I find it weird now. People who love games, like us lot, used to get excited about new and weird things. Marraccas, brilliant! A fishing rod, fantastic! Eyetoy, cool! Dancemats, yay! A pair of bongos and a microphone to control a pinball army game, mental, I want one!

It's possible my memory is playing tricks on me; perhaps it was only ever a minority that showed an interest in all that stuff. Even if it wasn't any good, at least there was interest, a spark of excitement over the possibilities. Now the common reaction seems to be "will it make Gears of War any better? No? Fuck off then."

I could just be paying too much attention to Meh, mind you.

Did you not get the memo? Gamers are now old miserable bastards who instinctively jump to complain about anything new because it's all aimed at their nan and no one makes any games where you shoot things in the face any more.

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I totally agree with this. I don't know if people just have too much novelty plastic in their houses these days, or if it's because the focus of these new peripherals and technologies has changed. Games like Samba de Amigo, Donkey Kong Jungle Beat, Sega Bass Fishing and Odama were all aimed at core gamers because there wasn't really an expanded market at that stage. Nowadays people just think they're for their mum, dad or little sister and don't bother.

Well, that's what they are aimed at to some extent. Jungle Beat is (for all intents and purposes) a hardcore platformer, just dressed up accessibly. Nowadays we get stuff that is accessible, but mainly lacks the depth underneath. Only the Galaxies managed to get this to work.

Besides I only need to point to the DS and iPhone to produce a gimmicky control mechanism that has captured casual and core alike. It really comes down to what kind of games are made with it, and Microsoft simply disappoints at that point.

As I said in another thread, had Microsoft presented Kinect during E3 (not Ponchofest, mind) with only Dance Central and Child of Eden, I think most people would have been a lot more positive, as those are games that seem to provide the core-experience of old, while Dance Central even manages to be interesting to casuals. Instead they showed us the same accessible-yet-shallow games everybody already experienced on the Wii next to Dance Central and didn't bother with Child of Eden. No wonder people aren't buying it (in both senses, though the literal one can change of course), Microsoft purposefully targeted this at a completely different audience, even though they knew who was watching.

Ponchofest I can understand; regurgitating it for their E3 presentation, I cannot.

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As I said in another thread, had Microsoft presented Kinect during E3 (not Ponchofest, mind) with only Dance Central and Child of Eden, I think most people would have been a lot more positive, as those are games that seem to provide the core-experience of old, while Dance Central even manages to be interesting to casuals. Instead they showed us the same accessible-yet-shallow games everybody already experienced on the Wii next to Dance Central and didn't bother with Child of Eden. No wonder people aren't buying it (in both senses, though the literal one can change of course), Microsoft purposefully targeted this at a completely different audience, even though they knew who was watching.

So because they showed off other games than Dance Central and Child of Eden, those games cease to exist rendering the device crap?

Anyway, I just watched it and couldn't help think

I like how he criticised Kinect for being too family friendly and then criticised Move for not being family friendly enough. Not!

Unless it was some sort of meta thing where he was secretly mocking those who've mocked the two devices.

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