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The Next, Next Gen


rubberducker
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On the other hand: Super Mario 64 and Mario Galaxy were/are overflowing with ideas that came with the new hardware. The problem with Super Mario Sunshine was the fact that they had to rush it, because developing such a big. complex 3D game takes time.

It is true that new technology can make developers lazy, but with an inspired team it can be the beginning of something completely new and original.

Even though Link's Awakening on the GB is still the best Zelda game ever made, on the weakest platform of all Zelda games.

We still don't know if Mario Galaxy is going to be any good, remember. Agreed on Mario 64 though. It's a wonderful game.

I'm not saying that new hardware is bad, in fact my original point was the restriction can aid creativity. Napole0n's dad is far more agreeable than his son :( One thing I am finding with current games is that we're constantly bombarded with unlockables and goals and points and secrets that don't really add much to the game, and in fact, don't usually take much more than patience to get. One thing the Mario's have always done well is reward imaginative play with secrets. Now it's often question of doing something enough times to open up another thing. It's why I think this gamerscore business is the worst thing to come around in years. But that's a different topic.

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Very interesting topic, its a shame most pots seem to have missed the main point of the OP: are Sony and MS going to change their business models after the Wii has shown an alternative (more lucrative) model. I think it has to. One option would be to release a machine thats cheap to develope for, with technical innovation replaced with interface and software innovation. Given Sony and MSs previous track record and inexperience in this regard I see this as unlikely (for handheld or living room gaming).

How I think it will impact their business models is that future Sony and MS machines will have a much smaller jump in power, concentrating more on immediate profitability than their current models do. Empahsis will have to placed on making games cheaper to produce, allowing developers to take more risks with their creative projects. Like the OP, I think the days of loss leader consoles will be over in the next gen. I also very much agree that the gap between gens will grow significantly.

-Jools

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i am amazed at how many luddites are on a video games forum.

super mario bros is a great "little game". but mario 64/sunshine are inherently better because the tech has allowed the designers to give the games far more depth.i am far more involved in the 3D world than i ever was the 2D one. the goals are more complex and scenarios more involving. thats down to what's possible with the technology.

we have a long way to go before we even manage what was demonstrated in the killzone 2 target, let alone photo realism.

it seems there is an elitist snobbery in gamers. some of us hate change. hate to see things move on. resent new consoles and deny that they will bring much new. and its ridiculous.

of coarse new tech will bring new IMPROVED gameplay. but the question is whether the masses (and existing gamers) are prepared to pay for it.

and its looking increasingly like THEY are not. and that may change everything if the PS4 and Next XBOX follow the Wii's example.

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Very interesting topic, its a shame most pots seem to have missed the main point of the OP: are Sony and MS going to change their business models after the Wii has shown an alternative (more lucrative) model. I think it has to. One option would be to release a machine thats cheap to develope for, with technical innovation replaced with interface and software innovation. Given Sony and MSs previous track record and inexperience in this regard I see this as unlikely (for handheld or living room gaming).

How I think it will impact their business models is that future Sony and MS machines will have a much smaller jump in power, concentrating more on immediate profitability than their current models do. Empahsis will have to placed on making games cheaper to produce, allowing developers to take more risks with their creative projects. Like the OP, I think the days of loss leader consoles will be over in the next gen. I also very much agree that the gap between gens will grow significantly.

-Jools

I think the next gen consoles will include spell check.

But I think the major revenue battle between sony and microsoft will actually be on-demand-entertainment like movies and HD-series on demand, rather than games.

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How I think it will impact their business models is that future Sony and MS machines will have a much smaller jump in power, concentrating more on immediate profitability than their current models do. Empahsis will have to placed on making games cheaper to produce, allowing developers to take more risks with their creative projects. Like the OP, I think the days of loss leader consoles will be over in the next gen. I also very much agree that the gap between gens will grow significantly.

-Jools

With PSN and XBLA, this is kinda already happening. Many of these downloadable games are very cheap to develop which mean developers can take risks on what they put out.

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super mario bros is a great "little game". but mario 64/sunshine are inherently better because the tech has allowed the designers to give the games far more depth.i am far more involved in the 3D world than i ever was the 2D one. the goals are more complex and scenarios more involving. thats down to what's possible with the technology.

I love both type of game. I don't agree that one is inherently better. And looking at sales of New Super Mario Bros a lot of people agree.

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i am amazed at how many luddites are on a video games forum.

super mario bros is a great "little game". but mario 64/sunshine are inherently better because the tech has allowed the designers to give the games far more depth.i am far more involved in the 3D world than i ever was the 2D one. the goals are more complex and scenarios more involving. thats down to what's possible with the technology.

we have a long way to go before we even manage what was demonstrated in the killzone 2 target, let alone photo realism.

it seems there is an elitist snobbery in gamers. some of us hate change. hate to see things move on. resent new consoles and deny that they will bring much new. and its ridiculous.

of coarse new tech will bring new IMPROVED gameplay. but the question is whether the masses (and existing gamers) are prepared to pay for it.

and its looking increasingly like THEY are not. and that may change everything if the PS4 and Next XBOX follow the Wii's example.

I'm not a luddite at all - I play next-gen games all the time. But personally speaking, I've completed Mario 64 twice since it came out, and in the last couple of months gone through Super Mario World 3 times. I don't find 3D worlds anymore immersive than 2D worlds, and would argue that going into 3 dimensions hasn't given games anymore depth in the metaphysical sense of the word. I believe in the Hyrule presented in A Link to the Past more than the Skies of Arcadia because of the design of the game – on top of the mountain, the forest below is a sea of green that goes on forever, and the character's dialogue hints at a life outside of your adventure. Great design.

GTA 3 is another one. When I'm playing that game I am utterly convinced that the world exists. This isn't because it's 3D - it's because when I turn the radio on, I hear adverts for products that I see in the shops and pasted on billboards alongside the road. I hear people calling in from locations I've just driven through, and wonder what houses they live in. This is a fantastic touch that gives the game depth. It's nothing to do with the graphics.

I can see how graphics can be exciting, but I hold onto what made me fall in love with games in the first place.

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perhaps i am alone then. i love the immersion graphical leaps bring. it adds to my experience immeasurably.

You're not alone. I've found myself interested in genre's I never liked before because the graphics were so scruffy and ugly previously. I didn't like crawling through forests, only to see that the grass and leaves were 2D and low rez. That's not much of an issue now.

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New tech isn't just about better graphics though. It's everything - Physics, audio and all that jazz. Games like Call of Duty 4 wouldn't be possible today if it wasn't for newer tech allowing for so much to be happening at once on screen.

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New tech isn't just about better graphics though. It's everything - Physics, audio and all that jazz. Games like Call of Duty 4 wouldn't be possible today if it wasn't for newer tech allowing for so much to be happening at once on screen.

and that as well.

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It seems if you admit to liking good graphics you're labelled a graphics whore yet every generation brings new gaming experiences with the aid of better hardware which some people seem to ignore. The forum's favourite RE4 wouldn't have worked on the N64/PS1, Mario 64 wouldn't have worked on the SNES and so on. A game doesn't have to look like Gears of War to be pushing the hardware to its limits.

From a strictly selfish point of view, I wish the Wii had been better specced, then it would be getting the likes of RE5. I'd rather have a machine that can do amazing graphics and simple stuff, but that's just me.

I think there's still a lot of room for improvement in games, I remember when Quake 3 came out and thinking it surely can't get much better than this but clearly it did, even games like Gears don't look quite so amazing now as when it launched. Hopefully we'll get improvements to the animation, physics and scale of games as well.

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It's no secret that limitation aids creativity.
I see no evidence of that in videogames.

I've only got my personal evidence with the Mii Channel with this but, I was restricted with the shapes I could use, and where I could place them. Others were too, but the result were some incredible and unique creations that appeared. I Imagine the same will be of LittleBigPlanet. The restriction will feed your creativity, I truly believe this. This therefore carries on to other artists like games designers. no?

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This generation has excited and dissapointed me in a few ways.

First of all, this all in one box shit is really starting to make me think that the manfacturers such as Sony are losing their focus by using stuff like the PS3 as a trojan horse.

Inside it, is the cell processors we have heard so much about, a powerful nvidia graphics card and of course Sony's legacy in really being able to push and diversify their hardware well. But whats come of it the power of the playstation? Crappy ports from an apparently weaker console, a few good but not stunning first party games and some new internal studios yet to prove themselves when it comes to content. The PS3 has the power under its bonner to do great things, providing the focus be there. But what have I heard about? What have dev's been screaming about the PS3 to set it apart from the microsoft white box that is currently easily standing head to head with the bigger bulkier foe. Blu-ray. Honestly, Insomnia when making Resistance went on about how GREAT the big space is- yet it made for a shooter no more impressive had it been on the PC or 360. I keep hearing about how blu-ray makes things greater. My friend (whos a bit of Sony fanboy- had a PS3 sitting around for months barely touched so is always trying to justify his purchase to me) and I were watching the Killzone 2 trailer from this E3. He said he heard the dev's say like the few mins of the trailer was like 2-3 gb's of date and he said "think of all that detail-how can that be possible on anything but a blu-ray". And it made me think, fucking hell, such an amazing looking game and I'm being told that the thing that sets it apart is a bigger capacity disc? Where did this focus come from?

I then showed him a trailer of Call of Duty 4, and said "yeah that whole trailer was like 300k of data, look at the detail :( " And then the crysis one (which looks amazing) and that as always willbe running off a dvd. I don't know where this strange new slanging match of dvd vs blu-ray in its gaming potential came. Its just more blank space on a disc-compression or just working over one disc can fix it. Its lead him to the belief that this software is only possibly on the PS3 not because of its power, but because of the format it uses. With the N64 and psone I understand the critical difference in cartridges and discs media wise. Really, dev's themselves keep going on about blu-ray as it its some genius device allowing for never seen before premesis, and these are always first party Sony dev's obviously feeding out about this format. I've heard fuck all from these guys about how CELL or clever things about the gpu allow them to harness unforseen power. But since blu-ray is such a huge deal for Sony, far beyond the realm of videogaming, it allows them if things go right to use their golden crown to take over a segment of the market that they would love to encompass a large amount of eletronic media.

And its little things like this that make me wonder where the true focus of the Playstation 3 is heading. The fact that a gaming console has been dubbed a "cheap blu-ray/hd player" really just encompasses the way it has been perceived. A magic box under the tv. that does so much. Blu-Ray movies, upscaled dvds, upscaled PS2 games, entire games over PSN, an internet browser, bigger and bigger hard disks becoming standard, a multilmedia card reader and things like 7.1 HD sound all built in. I read how one guy on the forum here was going on about how his family loves to browse through photo's and now a 3D interface is coming where you can accessories, have your own "space" and meet and play with other gamers through this second lifesque interface. The Playstation 3 is about gaming, but its about upscaled PS2 games, its about PSN downloadle games, its about whatever mini arcade games you will get through Home, its about sharing the 360 library of games and shouting about the few exclusives it has and its of course about blu-ray media and trying to match and compete with xbox live. The Playstation is losing its identity or at least trying to create a new one by whoring itself to every avenue available and looking at its competitors. Whether its xbox live or fighting over exclusive DLC or the six-axis being a response to the wii, even the front font is from another franchise. The Playstation3 is a brilliant box for all that it does and even CHEAP for what it does, but so far as a Playstation or a console in its own right, its struggling and lost and it shows this in the sales. The recent huge sales in America on the (temporary) price drop shows that being are willing to buy an expensive games console (with $499 being the top most people would pay for one of those) but not $599 for a cheap all in one AV device.

What Sony needs to really do is stop blabbing on about the media the PS3 uses and really begin to use unique power under the box to really push experiences not replicated on anything else. As long as you can assign a name to something, like you can show Second Life to Home or show ANOTHER fancy pants directed MGS4 trailer. They need to reignite the Playstation name as a gaming one in its own right. As the 360 hasn't quite done it yet so theres room to manovuer.

Microsoft have done some things rights. They got in there first so they lead the HD gaming with wireless pads as standard. The 360 has been a slow burner. Its first inital year or so of games were unique in the living room, but not in the home. What I mean by this is, for a while, games wise, the 360 really was a (cheap) pc in a box. At the time, it was matching the mid to high end graphics cards which cost the same, but nevertheless games like Call of Duty 2 and Oblivion were not 360 experiences, they were just experiences you could have on the 360 if you didn't on the pc. But it was not a unique experience. Then the other good games, Hitman Blood Money, Tomb Raider Legend etc were just hi def ports from last gen consoles. What did evolve nicely but not dramatically was live. Already intergrated from last gen, it now made things like game demos and for the first time, arcade. retro and new games available via download, which as we can see has become a standardised step, both on the wii and PS3. Now the 360 is stepping into its own stride and away from the PC. Call of Duty 3 (as flawed as it was) had it getting precedent over the pc, and games like the Darkness and Gears of War has pc-esque genres and experiences modified and brought sucessfully onto a console. However, these genres are still very pc/western games, for a while, the 360 was a Halo 3 machine in waiting. Now look at E3, some amazing games coming out at the end of the year, but they're so 360 games, you know? The Ubi soft games, the Halo, the rare attempts to diversify. Nevertheless, I LOVE Live, I think Live arcade has some great games going and games wise theres a lot I enjoy on the console itself. Definately my fave so far and most used. Were it not for the hardware issues which , touch wood, have not plagued me yet, it would be incredible value too. Now the three year warranty at least means you can't be charged for the shoddyness on their part.

What the 360 also offers is media streaming and HD-DVD, but, it doesn't make this compulsory or its main focus. Its by and by a gaming machine, live lets you play online, the demos you download are of games as are most of the videos in the marketplace. It may not be hitting all the buttons and producing all the right TYPES of games, but the ones its bringing out there now let it shuffle away from the PC library shadow a bit and its getting a lot of us.

Nintendo? Wow, Nintendo are defining this generation more than anyone. They began out dealing with playing cards did they not? Their origin is play, THEN games came. Nintendo I think despite their own methods and unwillingness to compete with Sony or to micmic them, they looked at what was pulling in the non gaming demographic to the PS2 apart from the 25 year old or so males. And it was things like Singstar.

I think they took that focus, and here we are with the wii. An extention on the gamecubes life essentially. You have your Mario, Metroid and Zelda on one hand, carrying on the recent polished 3D Nintendo legacy, and on other other hand you have the new phenomnen. The wii remote. Nearly a year of it being out and Nintendo realise you can use other things- the pad with wiifit for eg, as long as it doesnt look like a typical games controller, and it has some diverse appeal behind it, it will sell. Will the wii remotes focus be stolen on this new market or will be really be pushed to create new experiences that can reignite old genres which already seemed brilliant like Resident Evil 4 will testify? Nevertheless, whether Nintendo end up focusing more on the wii sports/wii fit market and disabandon the old nintendo magic for a while, they still deserve the sucess coming their way for creating ungeeky gaming.

Geeky gaming will still live on, Nintendo can't kill it with a casual focus. Casual focus has the numbers, but the geeks have themoney and having gaming as a regular pastime that they dedicate income too. Its where Microsoft get their gold subcriptions and where Sony get their consoles sold.

So yeah, HD on big devices with big epic games has all come at once this gen. Playing HD great looking games on flat screens which are becoming the affordable norm works well with the movement. but this is definately a gen where gaming as we know it is changing in ways we may not want it to. Let see what happens.

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TBH, all the PS3 extra stuff is so feebly easy to implement from what I can see, I can't think why someone would leave it out. Sony wanted most of it in the PS2, but there was no demand back then, IIRC.

Maybe if they had put all that shit in last gen, the PS2 would have probably not been the sucess it has been. Also case in point, Sony are great are leaving shit out, I can;t think of why they would take the emotion engine out, but there you go! How is blu-ray easy to implement considering its cost and delaying the console for many months?

If there was no demand for that stuff back then, I don't really see it being here now.

The PS3 is currently their Frankenstein. Bits of things not meant to live all jabbed together into a monster not knowing where to damn go.

What I'm saying it, its seems so lost in the weight of all the extras, that the focus soley on PS3 games isn't quite there. After E3, the biggest things on peoples lips is STILL metal gear

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After E3, the biggest things on peoples lips is STILL metal gear

Well everywhere I've looked there's been more talk about LBP, Killzone 2, Ratchet and Clank, Gran Turismo, Uncharted and Heavenly Sword than MGS4.

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Well everywhere I've looked there's been more talk about LBP, Killzone 2, Ratchet and Clank, Gran Turismo, Uncharted and Heavenly Sword than MGS4.

Fair enough- but again those are names I'm seeing pop up pre E3 just as much after- Killzone impressed well but Sony shot themselves in the foot by showing the render the year or so before as it would have been more impressive without. This debate could go on forever, and I'm not saying the PS3 won't have the games. I just think they fucked up on concept. That list should be three times as big by now, and four of them are sequels, one with a questionable history due to a shite game before it. With all this inhouse hoo haa I'm hearing, I'm not seeing the games behind it. Why aren't there more? Ok Microsoft didn't have a stellar line up, but they have more than enough exclusives and third party games to carry them head high into 2008.

It's as if its following this as its predecessor, not the PS2:

sonypsx.jpg

You know what that is? That's the PS3 of the last generation. Its a PS2 with a load of shit tacked on.

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Ok Microsoft didn't have a stellar line up, but they have more than enough exclusives and third party games to carry them head high into 2008.

It's been out in the uk for a whopping FOUR months. And you are complaining about a lack of games. Just stop posting about the PS3 if you simply don't like it. There is PLENTY on the horizon for the PS3.

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It's been out in the uk for a whopping FOUR months. And you are complaining about a lack of games. Just stop posting about the PS3 if you simply don't like it. There is PLENTY on the horizon for the PS3.

:blink:

Im sure Sony base their dev cycle on how long its been out in the UK.

My post wasnt initally about the lack of games (if you read it) as thats an OBVIOUS problem. If there was a rule here not posting except about stuff you like Soong, you should stay out of all but the Sony and Google threads :ph34r:

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Oh sorry for me being in the UK so talking about games available in the UK for the console in the UK for me in the UK.

A whopping 8 months if you wanna talk about the US date. It took the 360 a year to get Gears of War. It took the PS2 fucking ages. The PS3 release schedule is stronger than the PS2s at the same time of it's life.

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Oh sorry for me being in the UK so talking about games available in the UK for the console in the UK for me in the UK.

A whopping 8 months if you wanna talk about the US date. It took the 360 a year to get Gears of War. It took the PS2 fucking ages. The PS3 release schedule is stronger than the PS2s at the same time of it's life.

Again, you're going into old debate. My point was at about what the PS3 next gen focus seems on. I mentioned metal gear as a big gun and you responded. Yeah the first year of games is always crap, but the PS2 was always a PS2. It had nothing to stand on except being the sucessor to the Playstation and it worked on that. The PS3 ....I wrote a huge post on it, go read it :blink:

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Yeah you don't think they should have used a Blu-Ray player. And you also realise that ports generally turn out bad. You could have said that in muuuuch less writing.

What you don't realise is that Sony HAD to put the Blu-Ray player in the PS3. Since falling out with the DVD Forum or whatever it is, and there being two HD formats, Sony (and surely everyone) knew the only way they could beat HD-DVD is by having the PS3 Blu-Ray. BD films wouldn't be outselling HD-DVD now if it wasn't for PS3. The Blu-Ray format is massively important to Sony so for them to not put it in something that is already in almost 4 million homes would be suicide.

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As long as humans in video games look more like moving puppets than living creatures, we've got a long way to go.

Not really.

The animated film industry is having no luck in that department because of the whole Uncanny Cliff thing (I know it's called a Valley by most, but there's as yet no evidence of an up-swing, so Cliff it is), and regardless it has pretty much nothing to with whether a game is fun to play, as has been show again and again and again. It is apparently a human psychological problem that no amount of technology will solve, and it would be better either using proper stylisation or just use some damn actors. They're better at it anyway.

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