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Moore's documentaries are clearly not aimed at the people in this thread - they are for the ill-informed, they are tabloid points for a tabloid nation and very biased. Yet they get people interested in a different viewpoint (sometimes, actually educating that a different viewpoint even exists, no matter how extreme or controversial his handling of 'evidence' is) and he's raised an interest in viewing documentaries that I'm positive didn't exist previously (would either 'Supersize Me' or 'An Inconvenient Truth' garnered such a high level of press attention without Moore's guerilla-lite docs?)

I don't know, but I think there's a definite case for him having brought documentary film-making into a more public forum in the last few years. Whether that justifies his analysis or his methods, I just don't know. Interesting debate though.

Well said.

But still, I would like him more if he just fought his fight with more honour. It would give him a better image and make him more likable all round.

But Bowling For Columbine was quite okay IIRC, it was a shame that Fahrenheit 9/11 was more biased and less effective.

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I went to a book reading of his (at a sold out Manchester Apollo, 2700 people) and instead of being a sort of self-congratulatory backslapping session, he basically told everybody there "I'm trying to do something. What are you doing? Don't sit back and expect me to do all the work - get off your arses and be active, and I'll help if I can".

The sound of several hundred pairs of "I'd be an activist, really, but you know, I'm a bit busy" buttocks squirming was something to behold.

The guy can work a crowd with the best of them, and he's not content to sit back.

Edit: What was even funnier was it was before the big anti-war protest. He asked someone straight out whether they were going and got a rather weak "well, I can't afford to travel to London". He shot back "When I walk off this stage, I'll write a cheque to hire a bus to take 50 people down to London. Now what is your excuse?"

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I went to a book reading of his (at a sold out Manchester Apollo, 2700 people) and instead of being a sort of self-congratulatory backslapping session, he basically told everybody there "I'm trying to do something. What are you doing? Don't sit back and expect me to do all the work - get off your arses and be active, and I'll help if I can".

The sound of several hundred pairs of "I'd be an activist, really, but you know, I'm a bit busy" buttocks squirming was something to behold.

The guy can work a crowd with the best of them, and he's not content to sit back.

Edit: What was even funnier was it was before the big anti-war protest. He asked someone straight out whether they were going and got a rather weak "well, I can't afford to travel to London". He shot back "When I walk off this stage, I'll write a cheque to hire a bus to take 50 people down to London. Now what is your excuse?"

I saw him in Bristol a few years back and he asked the audience similar questions as well as taking the piss out of people's fear of the "Tories" (in squeeky high pitched voice) and demolishing a bloke who had a go at him and claimed Blair was the greatest Primie Minister this country has ever seen.

He is also a very funny guy - at times it was almost like watching a stand-up act when he started comparing our sports to American ones.

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There's something despicable about fabulously wealthy people complaining about the public not being politically active. Bono does it, and look at what a hypocritical tossbag arseheap he is.

Michael Moore's documentaries are alright. I think the best that can be said about them is that they inspire people to investigate further.

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Similarly though, how many stories in newspapers do you see about similar events happening in our health system? Mixed sex wards, old people lining corridors on mobile beds, wating for hours on end etc... It isn't as if this problem is exclusive to America...

Sure, the NHS has its problems. But I've never seen anything as bad as in America. But it's more that with the (frankly corrupt) system they have, as long as you can afford the treatment, I had assumed it would be of a better quality than what we get on the NHS. My grandparents are very patriotic, capitalistic Americans (my grandad was in the CIA!), and so always defended the American system. So, I always assumed it to be better than ours, as long as you overlooked the massive social injustice of it. But it's not. It's worse than the NHS. And not only is it worse, but if you're poor you can't get anything, and if you're rich you have to pay a huge amount of insurance (more than we pay via our taxes usually), and most likely you'll end up paying an insane amount on stuff that your insurance doesn't cover.

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There's something despicable about fabulously wealthy people complaining about the public not being politically active. Bono does it, and look at what a hypocritical tossbag arseheap he is.

Could you please let me know at which point in my bank account I'm not allowed to tell people to be politically active.

Bono has done more to try to eradicate poverty in Africa (and was doing it before U2 were the Biggest Band in the WorldTM) that everyone on this forum put together. I calculated that the text name thing on the last tour raised about 25 grand per concert for charities.

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Could you please let me know at which point in my bank account I'm not allowed to tell people to be politically active.

Bono has done more to try to eradicate poverty in Africa (and was doing it before U2 were the Biggest Band in the WorldTM) that everyone on this forum put together. I calculated that the text name thing on the last tour raised about 25 grand per concert for charities.

When your bank account is big enough so that you have no other worries. I can see how people can think that African poverty comes a very distant second to their own poverty or needs. For all that I may feel sorry for a starving town in Africa I don't know them, and my main concerns are my well being, as well as that of my family. If I was minted to the point of living in mansions that could house these starving African villages then I would probably be more likely to help out. Or not, I'm not going to kid myself.

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When your bank account is big enough so that you have no other worries.

At which point people will harp on about "rich bastards not giving back".

I'm not having a go at you personally, it is just the double standard really pisses me off. If you are a multimillionaire rock star and keep your money, then you are accused of being uncaring, if you donate it publicly, you are accused of showing off, if you donate privately then you are accused of not using your influence to get others to donate, if you donate some and encourage others (i.e the fans of your band) then you are accused of being preachy.

Generally by people who I call the "ostentatiously apathetic" and can't be fucked to do something themselves, instead preferring to sneer from the sidelines.

I'm not going to defend Bonos excesses, but a stipulation on U2 tours is that the likes of, Make Poverty History, Amnesty International and so on get stalls either free or massively discounted so that they can spread awareness and raise money from to fans at every gig. These organisations get to reach thousands of people every damn night. I fail to see why this is a bad thing.

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At which point people will harp on about "rich bastards not giving back".

I'm not having a go at you personally, it is just the double standard really pisses me off. If you are a multimillionaire rock star and keep your money, then you are accused of being uncaring, if you donate it publicly, you are accused of showing off, if you donate privately then you are accused of not using your influence to get others to donate, if you donate some and encourage others (i.e the fans of your band) then you are accused of being preachy.

Generally by people who I call the "ostentatiously apathetic" and can't be fucked to do something themselves, instead preferring to sneer from the sidelines.

I'm not going to defend Bonos excesses, but a stipulation on U2 tours is that the likes of, Make Poverty History, Amnesty International and so on get stalls either free or massively discounted so that they can spread awareness and raise money from to fans at every gig. These organisations get to reach thousands of people every damn night. I fail to see why this is a bad thing.

In life, no matter what you do, and I mean that literally, you will always be criticised for it. You could find the cure for cancer and personally deliver it around the world and someone, somewhere, will have something bad to say about it. Here's my personal problem with Bono:

He's an entertainer, nothing else. He lives a life of obscene luxury and tours the world (With all the pollution it brings) to sing some songs. Based on this he is living an amazing life funded by people who themselves are probably never going to see a mansion let alone live in one. Personally I would do the same in his shoes, but I'm not claiming a moral highground, I know that in certain areas my morals are certainly lacking. To make myself clear, I think his lifestyle and fortune is way out of proportion to his achievements, and I think that sort of lifestyle is gross, obscene and a massive insult to poor people. I'm also saying I would take that fortune for myself in a second, so I'm not on the moral highground in that sense, I just wouldn't prance about like a hypocritical cunt, and that's what gets me.

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To make myself clear, I think his lifestyle and fortune is way out of proportion to his achievements, and I think that sort of lifestyle is gross, obscene and a massive insult to poor people. I'm also saying I would take that fortune for myself in a second, so I'm not on the moral highground in that sense, I just wouldn't prance about like a hypocritical cunt, and I that's what gets me.

This, exactly.

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You'd have paid a lot less here if you got a serious illness and needed medium-long term care than in the US, especially if you were under 65 and middle class.

It isn't a lot less. It is less for treatment here though. But then again, you don't wait as long in America for an operation do you?

I don't really know or care which system is better, I just don't think the American system is bad soley based on one or two peoples experience, just as I don't think the NHS is amazing because they have had a better expereince with it. Neither of our countries have particularly amazing health systems.

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He's an entertainer, nothing else. He lives a life of obscene luxury and tours the world (With all the pollution it brings) to sing some songs. Based on this he is living an amazing life funded by people who themselves are probably never going to see a mansion let alone live in one. Personally I would do the same in his shoes, but I'm not claiming a moral highground, I know that in certain areas my morals are certainly lacking. To make myself clear, I think his lifestyle and fortune is way out of proportion to his achievements, and I think that sort of lifestyle is gross, obscene and a massive insult to poor people. I'm also saying I would take that fortune for myself in a second, so I'm not on the moral highground in that sense, I just wouldn't prance about like a hypocritical cunt, and that's what gets me.

But then you're basically telling someone: "Right, this is your job, do not deviate from it, do not pass go, do not collect £200". Surely that's not really fair.

I think he's a bit of a prat really, but I'm certainly not going to get on his case if he wants to help out a cause.

If he lives a life of obscene luxury, then that's the general public's fault for buying his music, surely?

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It isn't a lot less. It is less for treatment here though. But then again, you don't wait as long in America for an operation do you?

I don't really know or care which system is better, I just don't think the American system is bad soley based on one or two peoples experience, just as I don't think the NHS is amazing because they have had a better expereince with it. Neither of our countries have particularly amazing health systems.

Yes. But one of them doesn't consider that punishing people for being poor and ill is a suitable way of working.

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But then you're basically telling someone: "Right, this is your job, do not deviate from it, do not pass go, do not collect £200". Surely that's not really fair.

I think he's a bit of a prat really, but I'm certainly not going to get on his case if he wants to help out a cause.

If he lives a life of obscene luxury, then that's the general public's fault for buying his music, surely?

Oh don't get me wrong, I wouldn't stop him doing what he's doing, I'm just pointing out the man spends more on shades than some people earn in a year. I think it's fine if he wants to help people out, he's just in no position to get on his high horse about it. I know we're all used to the idea of celebrity and all the wealth it brings, but detach yourself from that and look at it rationaly, the man simply sings songs and has more money than whole third world cities. This is a gross distribution of wealth. If you look at money as resources, he has simply horded far, far more than he can ever use.

Again, I don't want to make it look like I'm coming down on rich people, I would like immense wealth myself. I think money, the actual concept of it, has made us forget that really we trade in resources. Anyone would say that it's obscene to, for example, burn a £50 note infront of a homeless person, yet we think it's ok to spend £1,000 on a watch or a piece of jewelry. It's still burning resources away for the sake of it. Like literally making a fire out of money to keep ourselves warm just because we have so much of it. I feel that people like Bono are like that, lighting metaphorical fires of money but instead of a fire of money it's that £1,000,000 car of those £5,000 sunglasses.

Anyway I'm rambling and this thread has nothing to do with it, so I'll stop.

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Oh don't get me wrong, I wouldn't stop him doing what he's doing, I'm just pointing out the man spends more on shades than some people earn in a year.

that very same money splurged on shades was probably a tax rebate, mainly due to any good multimillionaire superstars accountant suggesting that charity donations make for excellent tax breaks as well as raising your own celebrity profile.

bono donates cash, great, because he's so fucking minted he'll probably see it come back to him in part.

sadly, I feel his acts are nullified as he preaches benevolence to one cause, while hawking products manufactured by overworked, underpaid, exploited workers.

And to me there's nothing worse than hypocrisy on this level.

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I know we have devaited from the subject but one last point on Bono and why I hate the hypocrite:

The rock band U2 came under criticism yesterday after reports that it has moved a portion of its multi-million-pound business empire out of Ireland for tax reasons.
Joan Burton, Irish Labour's finance spokesman, said: "Having listened to Bono on the necessity for the Irish Government to give more money to Ireland Aid, of which I approve, I am surprised that U2 are not prepared to contribute to the Exchequer on a fair basis along with the bulk of Irish taxpayers.

"I share Bono's desire to see more resources devoted to Ireland Aid but it is more difficult to make a case for it if everyone is not willing to be part of the social contract that stipulates that everybody should pay their fair share in what is a low-tax country."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml.../08/nbono08.xml

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Wow, Michael Moore did it again. Watching a documentary which simply destroys everything good there is to say about the US. And by making such strong comparisons, I personally got pity with people who live in the US. The way they are treated by monopoly markets, the government; the way their healthcare formed itself. Unbelievable, a true inspiring documentary and a damn good reason for insurence companies to bite their nails when the movie comes out later this month. Groundshaking, and although it won't, I hope this movie starts some kind of motion.

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So what happens in the last 20 minutes of this that is so shocking ?

Spoiler please.

The latest issue of Total Film was reporting from cannes and said the last 20 mins contains a stunt so shocking that its amazing and that the US cops didnt want it being release.

Colour me interested.

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He ferries some sick (including some ground zero workers/helpers) to Cuba where they receive the quality health care and medicine they need and have previously been refused or could not afford in the states.

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It was indeed quite a stupid action at the end but by doing it, he still shows his point by seeking for help in a much hated country: Cuba. He eventually makes his point when the group of ill people get taken care of in a way people in the US would dream of.

And yes, I aggree it's one hell of a one-sided movie. but actually, after seeing this, I'm not that interested in the pledges of those who are willingly part of such a wrong system.

I think we'll see a lot more of Michael Moore in upcoming years. There are still a lot of subjects for him to get upset about, and I think it's great they all come to light, so people can see in what kind of world they live: One which is based on wrong morals.

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Surely Total Film are talking about this bit.

When he takes a boatload of people to Guantanamo Bay to get treatment.

I liked this, if even just one of those stories is true it's an absolute disgrace the system works like that.

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