No Country for Old Men

[Spudulis]

For me this was a great film but not a great Coen brothers film and certainly not thier best. That's just plain old horse muck.

All the major performances were great, some of the dialogue, especially Jones', was wonderful, and boy oh boy to the Coens know how to direct a great action sequence. That hotel shoot out put every blockbuster of the last five years to bed and fucked them into unconscious.

And yet, and yet there was so much wrong with the film. It felt like every whim of the Coens was celebrated and no one on the production had the balls to tell them to streamline and cut the flab. The amount of frayed edges on that story was insane. So much unecessary implausability. So many convenient turns. And a lot of times the film just felt outright pretentious rather than clever. That "tell my mother" line was just shit. In fact the women in general were so horrifically ineffectual. Were the hell is Frances McDorman when you need her?

The ending was abrubt, and I could not stop myself drifting off as Jones described the dream so I didn't catch the relevance, but it doesn't bother me. What bothers me is how the focus of the film just switched for no reason other than cheap suprise. The film was over once the hero was - any poetic themes or insights should have been made already. If felt like someone had cellotaped a short film on the end of the reel.

For me this is a diamond in the rough, a flawed piece of genius rather than the second coming. I hope the Coens go back to telling well crafted, streamlined stories with small casts, and don't polllute their scripts with needless cameos and sudden events that require the audience to take constant leaps of faith. The mexicans were the most convenient and under nourish cast of characters I've ever seen in a Coens film. It was like they had these scenes in mind but just didn't care how one led to the other. It just did. That's not good story telling.

And why the hell did Bardem kill those texans that hired him? Who the hell hires a man known to kill everyone?

I think you've missed the point in so much of that. The fact the Mexicans weren't in it much added to the film. Lleweyn was so concerned with Chigurah that he never realised he was being chased by them too and thats what did him in the end. If theyd have been in the film more it would have ruined that point. As for flab, I kind of agree that when watching it there are scenes that seem superfluous but once its over and you think back every scene in that film mnat something. Like, as mentioned before, the scene where Tommy Lee Jones stops the guy to help him secure his load. Seems pointless but if he hadn't have stopped he'd have got to Llewelyn before the Mexicans. It a beautifully crafted film.

[The Liberal Elite]

For me this was a great film but not a great Coen brothers film and certainly not thier best. That's just plain old horse muck.

All the major performances were great, some of the dialogue, especially Jones', was wonderful, and boy oh boy to the Coens know how to direct a great action sequence. That hotel shoot out put every blockbuster of the last five years to bed and fucked them into unconscious.

And yet, and yet there was so much wrong with the film. It felt like every whim of the Coens was celebrated and no one on the production had the balls to tell them to streamline and cut the flab. The amount of frayed edges on that story was insane. So much unecessary implausability. So many convenient turns. And a lot of times the film just felt outright pretentious rather than clever. That "tell my mother" line was just shit. In fact the women in general were so horrifically ineffectual. Were the hell is Frances McDorman when you need her?

The ending was abrubt, and I could not stop myself drifting off as Jones described the dream so I didn't catch the relevance, but it doesn't bother me. What bothers me is how the focus of the film just switched for no reason other than cheap suprise. The film was over once the hero was - any poetic themes or insights should have been made already. If felt like someone had cellotaped a short film on the end of the reel.

For me this is a diamond in the rough, a flawed piece of genius rather than the second coming. I hope the Coens go back to telling well crafted, streamlined stories with small casts, and don't polllute their scripts with needless cameos and sudden events that require the audience to take constant leaps of faith. The mexicans were the most convenient and under nourish cast of characters I've ever seen in a Coens film. It was like they had these scenes in mind but just didn't care how one led to the other. It just did. That's not good story telling.

And why the hell did Bardem kill those texans that hired him? Who the hell hires a man known to kill everyone?

You know it's an faithful adaptation of a book, yes?

[Phelan]

You know it's an faithful adaptation of a book, yes?

Unlike I Am Legend - and we know how shit that was.

[barkbat]

Cos once you've got what they've hired you to find it negates the need to be hired anymore

No, I mean the two Texans that take him to the original shoot out scene in the desert. I understand - once he pops them off we see what a psychopath he is. But why, if your business is assassination, would you assassinate your employers once you know the job details. It would reduce your customer base I imagine.

I think you've missed the point in so much of that. The fact the Mexicans weren't in it much added to the film. Lleweyn was so concerned with Chigurah that he never realised he was being chased by them too and thats what did him in the end. If theyd have been in the film more it would have ruined that point. As for flab, I kind of agree that when watching it there are scenes that seem superfluous but once its over and you think back every scene in that film mnat something. Like, as mentioned before, the scene where Tommy Lee Jones stops the guy to help him secure his load. Seems pointless but if he hadn't have stopped he'd have got to Llewelyn before the Mexicans. It a beautifully crafted film.

I liked that scene. I liked all Jones' scenes really. I just felt he had a film, and the other guy, the cowboy hero had a film - and both were undernourished because of a whole heap of Coen brothers bullshit was sandwiched imbetween. So your left with one story that never goes anywhere, and another darting to and fro at a million miles a minute with jack in the box characters, and a whole heap of nice but pointless Coen Texas anthropological scenes.

In a nuts shell - it didn't gel.

You know it's an faithful adaptation of a book, yes?

Yup.

[noizu]

My favourite scene was from near the end as well.

Moss

Lookin for what's comin.

Woman

Yeah but no one ever sees that.

Saw this last night and absolutely thought the same as Headache there - that little exchange stuck in my head for the rest of the film. Great stuff, I can see why if you went in expecting something like Fargo or Lebowski you'd feel short-changed but it really had the feel of Blood Simple - all that tension and mood and decisions coming back to bite you on the ass.

Never liked Tommy Lee Jones (or at least the character he tends to play) but he was fantastic in this. His little speech

about his dream at the end was a really nice end to the whole thing I thought. And god you really do fear for him at the motel scene

Such a quiet film too - loved the way in a couple of scenes music starts to fade in and then just comes to nothing, like it kept threatening to have a score but never quite got around to it

[Rsdio]

You can view the whole film about him and him trying to rationalise his life and the world changing round him as he gets older. His rejection of his job as he no longer understands the people he is dealing with and how he has trouble handling the horrors of the viciousness of modern crimes. The final scene shows his insecurity, having dreams where his father is still alive and protecting him.

This is pretty much the main way I was thinking from the beginning, to me he always seemed like the main character and the ending seemed quite natural because of it.

I saw the dream a bit differently though, I thought it tied in with both that theme and the title in that his father had gone ahead of him into the darkness to build a fire which is basically what he has done as the sheriff and his predecessor in the job did for him. He's basically gone as far as he can and now he's passing the baton to the next guy who has grown up in this more violent world and can now take over as the younger man until the time comes for him to 'build his fire' in turn.

Could well be bollocks and maybe I'll think differently when the DVD is out and I see it again.

[So. Angry.]

No, I mean the two Texans that take him to the original shoot out scene in the desert. I understand - once he pops them off we see what a psychopath he is. But why, if your business is assassination, would you assassinate your employers once you know the job details. It would reduce your customer base I imagine.

He obviously doesn't really care about being successfully employed in future because he's planning on keeping the bag full of money for himself.

Seeing as you find out how much people in his line of work earn later in the film ($1200 a day when employed on a job, I think it was) $2.4 million with no strings would be worth shooting a couple of people in the head for even if you weren't a psychopath.

[Graham S]

He obviously doesn't really care about being successfully employed in future because he's planning on keeping the bag full of money for himself.

Anton? He doesn't give a shit about the money, he's all about the killin'.

Sight and Sound points out that all the slightly jarring stuff where Tommy Lee Jones wouldn't return the DEA agents calls, saying that he wouldn't add anything to the case, and then you never hearing from the DEA again, is all a big joke: the DEA agent has a big sub-plot in the book and they cut it all out when adapting it for the screen.

[Delargey]

You always have to lose something when adapting books to the screen.

[Graham S]

You always have to lose something when adapting books to the screen.

Well, quite. I'm just saying that the Coens put into the script the urgent, unanswered phone messages asking Tommy Lee Jones to call back the DEA agent as an in-joke. I didn't pick up on it at the time.

[larrydavidsanger]

Just saw this last night, really enjoyed it. It was quite slow paced and actually quite long but I didn't notice the time pass at all and I didn't have a sore arse by the end, always a sign of a good film. I must be fucking thick though,

I didn't realise the Mexicans killed Llewellyn even though I saw them driving away, I thought it was Chirugah and those guys were just local gangstars that got caught up in the fire IDIOT!

The lack of a score worked really well for this film I thought, especially in the scene with Harrelson and Bardem in the hotel room, the sound of the phone ringing cut through the silence like a knife and rachetted up the tension brilliantly.

[Graham S]

The lack of a score worked really well for this film I thought, especially in the scene with Harrelson and Bardem in the hotel room, the sound of the phone ringing cut through the silence like a knife and rachetted up the tension brilliantly.

I agree, in that scene in particular. One of the Coen brothers said something like you take your cues as an audience from a conventional score, and it helps us figure out what's going to happen, so in a tense scene like that, a score is almost comforting. Without the score you have no idea what's coming next.

[larrydavidsanger]

Wow, just read through this whole thread and it's made me realise what a brilliant film it is with all the subtleties about choices, I need to watch it again

[Nick R]

The ending was abrubt, and I could not stop myself drifting off as Jones described the dream so I didn't catch the relevance,

I saw it yesterday, and I'm sorry to say this happened to me too.

But although now I've seen it I like reading this forum's and critics' opinions and interpretations of the film, I didn't really think about that stuff while I was watching it. I just absorbed the cinematography, the tension (

sitting in the dark hotel room/drying the gun out before shooting the dog/the bag rattling around loudly in the air vent/basically any scene with Chigurh sitting in a chair

), the action and everyone's gravelly voices.

[The Fox]

Might wanna spoiler tag your previous post, larrydavidsanger.

EDIT: actually there's probably loads of other spoilers in the thread. nm

[Pob]

I saw this last night and fully admit that a lot of it went over my head, which is quite rare. The strange decision about how to film the last segment

- from Llewellen's death to the end credits - was obviously deliberate, but I still don't really get what it added to the film. I lost interest once Llewellen died.

Given what came before, and the mounting cat-and-mouse action, it felt as if the filmmakers (well, the author of the book I guess) deliberately robbed the audience of a conclusion just to make some point or other. Plenty of films are ambiguous without being unsatisfactory.

And why not tell us what happened to his wife? What's the point in that?

Reading the thread, it seems I didn't really follow the plot as well as I thought

- it never really clicked about the Mexicans hunting him or the dramatic results of decicions made. I did lose it a bit when the action moved to El Paso. I can appreciate all this now, though, after reading some analysis.

I thought the majority of the film was superb, and I reckon it'll get better with more viewings. But I don't think I'll ever like the final twenty minutes.

[The Grand Pursuivant]

And why not tell us what happened to his wife? What's the point in that?

He checks his shoes after he leaves her house, which he does everytime he kills somebody.

[Pob]

He checks his shoes after he leaves her house, which he does everytime he kills somebody.

Oh right, I didn't get that. Seems a lot of the plot intricacies passed me by.

[The Grand Pursuivant]

Oh right, I didn't get that. Seems a lot of the plot intricacies passed me by.

It's a fairly subtle one.

But he does it a few times, after he kills Carson, and he takes his socks off after he's killed the Mexicans at the first motel Llewellyn stops at.

[Monkichi 3.0]

I saw this yesterday and really liked it. I didn't have any problem with the plot but that was because I was filling in the holes myself. Here's my take on it:

Think about an eventful day in your life. In that same day there will be things which don't lead anywhere, things which aren't resolved, things which you can't explain or only later find out about. In a film like this I have no problem with them being there, because I consider myself an observer in these people's lives, and the fact that irrelevant or unsatifactory threads are opened and closed isn't a problem for me, it's part of being a spectator. For me this made the film far more immersive, because I couldn't just predict what was happening based on what was going on at the time. With many films I end up guessing what's going to happen because I know that every single element is relevant, hence when something happens I know it has to lead somewhere, and based on movie formula you can sort of guess it. With this film that wasn't the case, so I was always kept on my feet. I literally felt that no character was safe from death but most importantly no character was guaranteed a punishment, there was not set fate for anyone. Again, this made the feeling of being a spectator to events more dramatic for me.

With regards to plot holes/devices:

Llewelyn leaving his truck up there: He could have done this because he didn't know if anyone had returned to the site and knew that he would attract attention if he drove up.

How people kept finding him: I think it was obvious they knew he was heading for the border and that must have been the closest border control since he had to walk to it after the shootout, that's how Chirugh would have found him. Woody's character was an retired army officer and could concievably have contacts in the border patrol, as well as calling up hospitals near the border. You have to keep in mind that although we don't hear about it in the film the murders which have been occuring would obviously have made the news, and someone familiar with Anton's MO like Woody's character would have known what was going on.

The tracker: The fact is Llewelyn did find it, so he did look. The fact he didn't look before isn't a plot hole, people react differently. Personally I would have placed all the money in a hold-all. And what would have happened to me? I would have been tracked because I would have assumed the tracker was in the original bag not the actual money. This is the first time I've ever seen the tracker placed in the actual money rather than a bag so I don't think it's far-fetched to assume Llewelyn didn't look there originally.

How did the Mexicans find Llewelyn?: They questioned Llewelyn's mother in law and she told them. This is the scene with the Mexican guy helping her with her bags. Again, keep in mind that although it's not shown in the film it's obvious that police attention was attracted to what was going on and it wouldn't be that hard for them to find out that Llewelyn was missing and the police were looking for him. From then they could easily find his wife.

The sudden ending: I wish everything that happened in my life ended well, fact is it doesn't. Again, it really depends what minset you enter the film with but if you enter purely as an observer then you're just watching what is happening, the ending doesn't need to satisfy via redemption or a showdown. You find out who lives to see another day and who doesn't, that's all you need to know.

[Pob]

The tracker: The fact is Llewelyn did find it, so he did look. The fact he didn't look before isn't a plot hole, people react differently. Personally I would have placed all the money in a hold-all.

Only because you've watched too many films

The sudden ending: I wish everything that happened in my life ended well, fact is it doesn't. Again, it really depends what minset you enter the film with but if you enter purely as an observer then you're just watching what is happening, the ending doesn't need to satisfy via redemption or a showdown. You find out who lives to see another day and who doesn't, that's all you need to know.

There is a showdown, it just happens (mostly) off-screen. I still don't see the point of following one character, getting the audience involved in his journey, bringing the situation to a head, then not giving us the satisfaction is seeing how things end for him. And then continuing the film without him. Sure, it's 'unexpected' (I love this facet of the Coen's films) but it's not satisfying.

[Monkichi 3.0]

Yeah, I know what you mean. At the same time it allows you to draw your own conclusions. Let's face it, we would only have been happy if

Llewelyn made a heroic last stand and took out loads of the bad guys in a cool way. We'd be just as unsatisfied if he opened the front door and got shot in the face straight away.

The problem with the former way of doing it is that it's too predictable and clearly panders to our expectations, which for me would have ruined the factor of being a spectator. I guess what I'm saying is that I don't want my presence as the spectator affecting things, and I think it would have if we were shown the showdown.

And yes, I watch too many films and hence spoil it for myself my mostly seeing twists a mile off and recognising plotting devices. That's why I felt this film worked so well, because I couldn't rely on the usual assumptions.

Not that I think it's a flawless work of art or anything. On one end of the scale we have the shop scene which I thought was absolutely dripping with tension and just generally a very memorable and excellent scene whilst on the other we have the complete lack of development of some of the characters.

Oh, a bit random but I read somewhere that Tommy Lee Jones is actually from a place near where the events of the film happen.

[R0b]

Was Woody not a policeman? I thought he was a policeman.

They could have just made that tracker smaller, it was a great big thing! I definitely would've looked through the bag, made sure it was not packed with newspapers. Every single person on the planet would do the same.

I liked the film though.

Spoilers:

To clarify: he almost certainly did look in the bag - he knew the amount of money it contained (£2 million) before he returned home to his wife the night he obtains it. Also bear in mind that the tracker was hidden within a wad of bills, not the bag itself.

Also, he didn't get the room next to his original in the motel - he got the next one along, leaving a room in between. It was a good choice because it gave a level of caution and intelligence to the characters in the movie - the kind that stops you from screaming at the stupidity of the usual Hollywood scripted buffoon. Louise or whatever his name was was quite resourceful at times and the incisive caution he displayed at times through the film was excellent. In terms of the landlady not 'blabbing' about him, well, it was late, and the scene is a comedy one as opposed to being serious. She seemed to think it was more of a strange choice than a worrying one, and didn't seem too concerned. Her own eccentricity and the relationship they have is hinted at earlier when he is choosing rooms, too. I think it set the tone well and didn't stick out as unnatural for me.

In terms of Woody's character, I'd say that was the weakest element of the film. I think his inclusion was to set a sort of comparison and also add depth to the main killer, along with a fresh perspective of his professional motives. He is similar in the sense that he is also a fixit man, and presumably uses similar techniques. Hence the (importantly: unexplained) ease within which he found Llewelyn and the money highlights the futility of Llewelyn's fleeing without the killer himself finding him (althugh he does shortly after). It's important it was left unexplained because these men must be seen as forces beyond prediction to heighten their unpredictability and the fear that circles around Chirugh. Also Woody's presence showed in the hospital thread that not all was over - he was very much still in trouble and exposed to Chirugh.

Woody in ways is like a reflection of the main killer: similar in many ways, knowing of the main man's plans (hunting down Llewelyn's wife for example) safer whilst giving an insight of what the main man is thinking. Weakest element of the film for me only because I think Woody did a poor job of it all - he didn't seem to be playing any particular character and a very important role within the story felt reduced to... a bad act. Also he has a strange head. I think the story suffered.

The sheriff is the voice of reason - which Llewelyn gives up for money (something which the sheriff has a bit of a speech about) and which the psychopathic Chirugh is utterly devoid of. Such a situation defeats him, as symbolised by his retirement.

[kerraig UK]

While I agree Pob, that not seeing that final seen is unsatisfying, but

had it ended with a big showdown in which shergar was killed, that would have betrayed what the movie was trying to say, despite being more satisfying to the viewer. That simply isnt the story the writer was telling. And yes I am aware that shergar is a horse

[Pob]

While I agree Pob, that not seeing that final seen is unsatisfying, but

had it ended with a big showdown in which shergar was killed, that would have betrayed what the movie was trying to say, despite being more satisfying to the viewer. That simply isnt the story the writer was telling. And yes I am aware that shergar is a horse

I don't have a problem

with what actually happened to Llewelyn, I just didn't see the point in not showing it. What is the film trying to say by not showing that? I realise that, in a way, the film is told from the sheriff's perspective. Except it's not really, because he's not in it that much and by the time everyone reaches El Paso we desperately want to know how the Chigurrhr/Llewelyn situation is going to end.

Perhaps the film actually falls foul of how good the preceding 90 minutes is. Llewelyn and Shifgyhr are such great characters and so well acted that we feel really let down that their plot is never properly resolved. The book may not have this problem.

[Timmo]

Agreed.

I can see it working much better as a book. I imagine the sheriff had a lot more time in the book than on film, much like Arctor in A Scanner Darkly. In that, you really get to know him and care for him and what's going wrong, but in the short space of the film it's hard to really feel for him in quite the same magnitude.

In all honesty I thought Tommy Lee Jones was awful and unengaging in this film. I could barely be bothered to even listen to what he was saying.

[Silent Runner]

I don't have a problem

with what actually happened to Llewelyn, I just didn't see the point in not showing it. What is the film trying to say by not showing that? I realise that, in a way, the film is told from the sheriff's perspective. Except it's not really, because he's not in it that much and by the time everyone reaches El Paso we desperately want to know how the Chigurrhr/Llewelyn situation is going to end.

Perhaps the film actually falls foul of how good the preceding 90 minutes is. Llewelyn and Shifgyhr are such great characters and so well acted that we feel really let down that their plot is never properly resolved. The book may not have this problem.

I don’t know if it trying to say anything, it was just a clever way of shocking us. I was expecting a big shoot-out but instead we get Tommy Lee Jones rolling up and Moss on a slab. I totally didn’t see it coming.

It was like that bit in Brokeback Mountain

when Ennis gets the letter with ‘Deceased’ stamped on it, I was all ‘oh he’s dead. shit’

[Couch Corpse]

Finally.

Superb, very funny and glided from comedy to menace gracefully. The cast was flawless with the exception of Kelly Macdonald who isn't very good, I didn't rate Brolin at all until this as well. And it looks fucking beautiful.

I haven't watched The Ladykillers or Intolerable Cruelty yet so the Coens still have a perfect record with me.

[futureshock]

Stunning.

There were many amazing aspects for me, but I'd have to say the highlight was watching Tommy Lee on the screen. Everytime he delved in to his tired, worn-out rambling monologues all I could do was whisper "Oscar!" under my breath. Every word shone, every syllable tingled.

Too much? I don't care.

As for complaints about the length - no chance. If anything, at the three-quesrter stage I remember feeling that it was just starting to take shape. It could've went on for another two hours and I'd still be there, bug-eyed, lapping it up.

It's not only a great film, it's a great Coen Brothers film.

[therearerules]

It's a brilliant film, and I enjoyed reading people's thoughts about it on here.