Sport Liverpool Football Club

[SMD]

I bet ramone watches us play on Five Live. He's still got the diagram of the pitch with the numbers and everything.

[ras el hanout]

No it's the ones where the team play shit. It is clear that the manager can't get them to play consistently well no matter the system employed.

That seems to be the problem, I agree, although has hasn't had that long, perhaps with more time he'll consistantly get us playing better - although Rafa had 6 seasons and never managed it.

But yes Roy seems to be poor and getting us to play consistantly well and if he was replaced I wouldn't mind. It's the gloating and the nonsense spoken about him that makes me ashamed of you guys.

[ras el hanout]

I bet ramone watches us play on Five Live. He's still got the diagram of the pitch with the numbers and everything.

Your folks didn't take you yesterday? It wasn't on 5live yesterday though.

[SMD]

Your folks didn't take you yesterday? It wasn't on 5live yesterday though.

[Guest]

That seems to be the problem, I agree, although has hasn't had that long, perhaps with more time he'll consistantly get us playing better - although Rafa had 6 seasons and never managed it.

But yes Roy seems to be poor and getting us to play consistantly well and if he was replaced I wouldn't mind. It's the gloating and the nonsense spoken about him that makes me ashamed of you guys.

It's certainly not an easy task. Arsenal look brilliant one game and slipshod another. And that's not just this season.

Looking at Chelsea they've hit a slump more than anything, generally they've been consistently pretty good over the last few years. Man Utd also.

This season does seem to be a strange one, squads in transition, Spurs being fun (yet not as good as they think they are, nothing much changes really!).

I guess the point is that Hoggle may seemingly have not had much time and yet we are so wishy washy it's noticable even in a season where the top teams are faltering.

And because we've seen managers walk into Chelsea and do well, and a guy like Mourinho go anywhere and get his team playing consistently within a matter of weeks - we have to ask te questions What is Hoggle doing and Will he ever improve? Because that away record is truly awful.

[DeNeo]

Negative tactics. I love that. Read it on the internet did you? That we now employ negative tactics? Yeah, he sends them out to lose. I hate to see this thread if we lost.

You want him to guarantee 4th?

I don't think we were negative yesterday. Are you saying the games in which we lose as the negative ones?

No we weren't bad yesterday. But it was a blip under Hodgson. We've probably played good football in about 3 league matches under him.

Playing your midfield so far back is pretty negative yeah, and that's what he's done most of the time - letting the opposition come onto us, even at home. Not going out and playing our own way, without worrying about the opponents. He doesn't set us out to lose, he usually sets us out too defensive, too respectful.

Part of those tactics are what resulted in Reina hoofing the ball up so much against Wolves, instead of playing it cleanly out of his area. Thankfully that changed yesterday.

We've got three away games in a row now. If we had a different manager, I'd be confident of us winning at least 2 of those. Under Hodgson I'm not sure we'll even get 1.

[ras el hanout]

No we weren't bad yesterday. But it was a blip under Hodgson. We've probably played good football in about 3 league matches under him.

Playing your midfield so far back is pretty negative yeah, and that's what he's done most of the time - letting the opposition come onto us, even at home. Not going out and playing our own way, without worrying about the opponents. He doesn't set us out to lose, he usually sets us out too defensive, too respectful.

Part of those tactics are what resulted in Reina hoofing the ball up so much against Wolves, instead of playing it cleanly out of his area. Thankfully that changed yesterday.

We've got three away games in a row now. If we had a different manager, I'd be confident of us winning at least 2 of those. Under Hodgson I'm not sure we'll even get 1.

I thought there were stats that we hoof it less now than under Rafa? Playing our own way? What way's that then? The way we playd in the 80s or the way we've played since.

I'll say it again the hit and miss performances are a real worry, but it's not fucking new, it's not like Roy's comne in a fucked up what was a beautifull success, like he came in and made Barcelona play like Blackburn. And that's the problem - there are a lot fo fans who think we were great under Rafa.

Hey, go back and read this thread, you can even ignore my posts - apart from a few European nights it's all fucking groaning about how inconsistant we are, mad team selections, negative tactics, more draws than any other team.

So my problem with Roy is he doesn't seem any better than Rafa, not that he's considerably worse.

[DeNeo]

I thought there were stats that we hoof it less now than under Rafa? Playing our own way? What way's that then? The way we playd in the 80s or the way we've played since.

I'll say it again the hit and miss performances are a real worry, but it's not fucking new, it's not like Roy's comne in a fucked up what was a beautifull success, like he came in and made Barcelona play like Blackburn. And that's the problem - there are a lot fo fans who think we were great under Rafa.

Hey, go back and read this thread, you can even ignore my posts - apart from a few European nights it's all fucking groaning about how inconsistant we are, mad team selections, negative tactics, more draws than any other team.

So my problem with Roy is he doesn't seem any better than Rafa, not that he's considerably worse.

Nope - we hoof a lot more:

Playing our own way meaning to impose our own game on the opposition rather than just sitting deep and waiting to see what they can do.

I'm not saying we've never been inconsistent, I was complaining last season about how bad we were in that regard. But we were a lot better in the last few years than we are now - he has made us a lot worse, not just a little.

[Oh Danny Boy]

That seems to be the problem, I agree, although has hasn't had that long, perhaps with more time he'll consistantly get us playing better - although Rafa had 6 seasons and never managed it.

But yes Roy seems to be poor and getting us to play consistantly well and if he was replaced I wouldn't mind. It's the gloating and the nonsense spoken about him that makes me ashamed of you guys.

i guess you haven't watched much of liverpool under Rafa

[ras el hanout]

Nope - we hoof a lot more:

Playing our own way meaning to impose our own game on the opposition rather than just sitting deep and waiting to see what they can do.

I'm not saying we've never been inconsistent, I was complaining last season about how bad we were in that regard. But we were a lot better in the last few years than we are now - he has made us a lot worse, not just a little.

I didn't mean we hoofed it less it one game, there were stats around earlier in the season that we hoof it less. It may have changed now but earlier in the seasons those were definitely the stats.

And we weren't better the last few years, we were inconsistent in the league for the last ten years, it's not true that we are much worse now.

I'll wager in Rafa's first season we didn't have many more points than we have now. Were you calling for Rafa's head then? Of course not, we're Liverpool fans, not kneejerkers, we give a manager time and don't turn on him after a couple of games.

Don't get me wrong. I actually think the team should be playing a lot better by now and the fact that Roy's lost most of the crowd (or didn't have them in the first place)means his position is untenable and he may as well go. I'll feel he never really got a fair crack at the whip but I won't cry about it, the club's the most important thing, but then it could be reasonably argued that he should be given a bit more time.

[Oh Danny Boy]

I thought there were stats that we hoof it less now than under Rafa? Playing our own way? What way's that then? The way we playd in the 80s or the way we've played since.

I'll say it again the hit and miss performances are a real worry, but it's not fucking new, it's not like Roy's comne in a fucked up what was a beautifull success, like he came in and made Barcelona play like Blackburn. And that's the problem - there are a lot fo fans who think we were great under Rafa.

Hey, go back and read this thread, you can even ignore my posts - apart from a few European nights it's all fucking groaning about how inconsistant we are, mad team selections, negative tactics, more draws than any other team.

So my problem with Roy is he doesn't seem any better than Rafa, not that he's considerably worse.

you must have only just started supporting liverpool. Either that or i forgot the numerous seasons where Rafa's Liverpool were in mid table obscurity

[Oh Danny Boy]

And we weren't better the last few years, we were inconsistent in the league for the last ten years, it's not true that we are much worse now.

I'll wager in Rafa's first season we didn't have many more points than we have now. Were you calling for Rafa's head then? Of course not, we're Liverpool fans, not kneejerkers, we give a manager time and don't turn on him after a couple of games.

see its statements like these which make me question if your actually a liverpool fan

a) we are much worse now, hence why we've gone from champion's league qualifiers and premiership challengers to well where we are now. Last few years... including the year we came second?

b) we did have more points in Rafa's first season then we do now, this isn't the worst season since we got relegated for nothing

c) Rafa had a far worse squad in his first season also. This squad is capable of more than the one which won the champion's league.

[ras el hanout]

you must have only just started supporting liverpool. Either that or i forgot the numerous seasons where Rafa's Liverpool were in mid table obscurity

Well we were 6th after 19 games in Rafa's first season. We're currently 9th, with a game or two in hand on some teams above us. But then Rafa took over a team that had finished 4th the previous season and went on to win the Champions League, Roy took over one that finished 7th and didn't even qualify for the Premiership League.

But let's think about you're ridiculous point. You don't remember many seasons when rafa's Liverpool were languishing in mid table obscurity. I can think of two, last season and his first season. So that's at least two, dodn't know where we were in the others, usually a long way behind the leaders. We were top once though. So twice we've been not too far from where we are now.

Now answer this, how many seasons has Roy's Liverpool been languishing midtable?

I'll help you out here. The answer's once. That's better than at least twice, right?

Looking further we were 9th after 14 games in 06 07.

So that's three times. Man your memory is fucked.

[ras el hanout]

Just to be clear - because this nicely illustrates the fucked up mental block a lot of Liverpool fans have with regards to rafa

9th after 14 games after spending a lot of money and before the Americans really fucked everything up and this two seasons into the job, that's okay that is.

9th after 19 games taking over a team in turmoil in your first season, that's a disgrace to LFC and everything it stands for.

[SMD]

ramone - distilling sky and talksport since 2007.

[DeNeo]

Results are only part of the reason why the fans aren't happy. The style of football in most games, the constant lowering of expectations, downplaying our own club, nonsensical comments, transfers, players loaned out. There's a massive list as to why he's not the man for the job.

[ras el hanout]

ramone - distilling sky and talksport since 2007.

SMD - Brain damaged at birth. In 1998.

[SMD]

SMD - Brain damaged at birth. In 1998.

So you think I'm a mentally disabled kid and you still can't argue rationally with me?

Great start to your year.

[ras el hanout]

Results are only part of the reason why the fans aren't happy. The style of football in most games, the constant lowering of expectations, downplaying our own club, nonsensical comments, transfers, players loaned out. There's a massive list as to why he's not the man for the job.

Whoah there, that's why the fans who adored and still adore Rafa aren't happy.

I'm only unhappy because of the results. The rest of what you said is just bollocks gleened from likeminded fans on messages boards that can be twisted any which way.

miereles looks like a fantasic signing. Or are you banging on about Konchesky and Poulson? Emergency buys.

[ras el hanout]

So you think I'm a mentally disabled kid and you still can't argue rationally with me?

Pretty much.

[ras el hanout]

SMD, listen buddy. I gotta tell you before you did the "Ramone's never been to anfield" one I thought you were just a bit dopey. After that I figured you were mentally challenged or a child. Now there are people here - unbelievably - who share your thoughts on Rafa. They were embarrassed for you. I'd cool off if I were you.

[lampkin]

Just to be clear - because this nicely illustrates the fucked up mental block a lot of Liverpool fans have with regards to rafa

9th after 14 games after spending a lot of money and before the Americans really fucked everything up and this two seasons into the job, that's okay that is.

9th after 19 games taking over a team in turmoil in your first season, that's a disgrace to LFC and everything it stands for.

Hmm, of late I've found your posts unusually coherent and interesting, but I thought I'd add some Tomkins (I bet you love it, http://tomkinstimes.com/2010/12/the-return-of-rafa/):

"So it was against this backdrop that Liverpool experienced what was deemed an ‘unacceptable’ season, even though the Reds performed better in terms of winning games (18) and gaining points (63) than in the final year of Houllier’s reign (just 16 wins and 60 points). Indeed, even if you average out Houllier’s final two seasons, it still equals only 62.5, a fraction less than the 2009/10 total of 63. (Rafa’s final two seasons saw an average that was ten points better than Houllier’s full six-season average.) Currently, the Reds are on course for just 49 points, well below last year’s figure."

I'm stoking here, you're just a wind up really aren't you? The Rafa obsession seems to never go away.

It's strange, on one hand Liverpool fans are told they expect too much, the other they're told to stop loving Rafa because he was shit and never achieved that much...right.

[ras el hanout]

Hmm, of late I've found your posts unusually coherent and interesting, but I thought I'd add some Tomkins (I bet you love it, http://tomkinstimes.com/2010/12/the-return-of-rafa/):

"So it was against this backdrop that Liverpool experienced what was deemed an ‘unacceptable’ season, even though the Reds performed better in terms of winning games (18) and gaining points (63) than in the final year of Houllier’s reign (just 16 wins and 60 points). Indeed, even if you average out Houllier’s final two seasons, it still equals only 62.5, a fraction less than the 2009/10 total of 63. (Rafa’s final two seasons saw an average that was ten points better than Houllier’s full six-season average.) Currently, the Reds are on course for just 49 points, well below last year’s figure."

I'm stoking here, you're just a wind up really aren't you? The Rafa obsession seems to never go away.

It's strange, on one hand Liverpool fans are told they expect too much, the other they're told to stop loving Rafa because he was shit and never achieved that much...right.

It's weird. Slagging of Houllier now to make Rafa seem better.

And the last bit, it's not that strange, we maybe do expect a bit too much now. But we didn't expect too much when Rafa was in charge. He had Gerrard and Carragher at their peak and the second highest transfer budget for four years - but I'm sure tomkins can twist that.

I'm actually prepared to forget Rafa and support our manager but people keep bringing up how great we were under him and how bad we are now!

[Chewylegs]

All I want is a new manager, someone who isnt in the twilight of his career, someone to bring some exciting football back to anfield, someone who can actually get these over paid tossers playing well or out of the club! Not much to ask, hey?

[lampkin]

It's weird. Slagging of Houllier now to make Rafa seem better.

And the last bit, it's not that strange, we maybe do expect a bit too much now. But we didn't expect too much when Rafa was in charge. He had Gerrard and Carragher at their peak and the second highest transfer budget for four years - but I'm sure tomkins can twist that.

I'm actually prepared to forget Rafa and support our manager but people keep bringing up how great we were under him and how bad we are now!

I actually thought the point was the final points tally, as that's what counts, as it stands we're set to finish well lower than we have done in a long while. Hodgeson is failing to even meet the conditions Rafa was sacked under.

I agree though, I think Rafa at one stage had a very strong squad, I'm not sure we've ever had the depth?

One good thing to come out of this, it sounds like I won't struggle getting tickets for a home game? I've only seen us play once, at Anfield.

Who feels that Hodgeson should be given the chance to bring in some players and build on the current squad?

What seems to be becoming very obvious is the batch of players we're left with are just not cut out and really are just ordinary. That being the case, as seen in Rafa's last season, perhaps Hodgeson is getting a raw deal. Given that it seems a number of teams, Spurs and City, have caught up, is it even fair to compare the squad Rafa started with? Was the competition as strong then?

[Reynard]

What seems to be becoming very obvious is the batch of players we're left with are just not cut out and really are just ordinary. That being the case, as seen in Rafa's last season, perhaps Hodgeson is getting a raw deal. Given that it seems a number of teams, Spurs and City, have caught up, is it even fair to compare the squad Rafa started with? Was the competition as strong then?

That's not very obvious at all. It's an under performing team/squad. The statistics bear that out. As has been mentioned many times, we had a lot of players representing their countries at the World Cup, with some of our players participating in the final of the competition.

City would've 'caught' anyone up - that would tend to happen when you spend 200m+ over a couple of transfer windows. Spurs have also seen large squad investment over the past few windows. However, it's as much them catching us up as it is us standing still/going backwards over that same timescale. If you want to stay higher up the table, you need to keep investing, which is the opposite of what we've been doing for a couple of years now.

EDIT: Regarding your point about giving Hodgson a window, it's not really going to happen. That's why FSG brought in Comolli. Not to mention that fact that Hodgson's traditional transfer dealings flies in the face of FSG's preferred model of bringing younger players in, not the late-twenties-early-thirties players that Hodgson ("Young players only give you relegation") tends to favour, tied in to long contracts on large salaries, leaving next to no resale value.

[ras el hanout]

All I want is a new manager, someone who isnt in the twilight of his career, someone to bring some exciting football back to anfield, someone who can actually get these over paid tossers playing well or out of the club! Not much to ask, hey?

That's what we all want, I think. And things have changed since Roy was brought in. And I don't mind saying "Listen Roy, with the new owners we wann build for the future so there's no point allowing you to build your team."

What does bother me is people writing this guy off as being completely fucking shit at football managing on the strength of half a season. That just doesn't seem fair.

[ras el hanout]

That's not very obvious at all. It's an under performing team/squad. The statistics bear that out. As has been mentioned many times, we had a lot of players representing their countries at the World Cup, with some of our players participating in the final of the competition.

City would've 'caught' anyone up - that would tend to happen when you spend 200m+ over a couple of transfer windows. Spurs have also seen large squad investment over the past few windows. However, it's as much them catching us up as it is us standing still/going backwards over that same timescale. If you want to stay higher up the table, you need to keep investing, which is the opposite of what we've been doing for a couple of years now.

And yet you want the manager out? Hardly seems fair.

[Reynard]

That applies to last season as well, if you want to get all charitable now. In fact, it's a better climate/backdrop to manage in now than it was then, with all of the boardroom strife ripping the club apart.

The difference is, some of us wanted to stick by the guy who'd won us a European Cup, brought us to another final, won the FA Cup, had us performing in the league to our highest level for twenty years, brought in some world class young players, won La Liga a couple of times, yada yada.

The big difference is that Hodgson has no track record, no past evidence that he can even propel a team to any kind of height in any comparible level of competition. That's before you dig deeper and look at the tactics (something you don't really seem to have any comprehension of, to be fair) or the many, many foot-in-mouth comments.

[ras el hanout]

The difference is, some of us wanted to stick by the guy who'd won us a European Cup, brought us to another final, won the FA Cup, had us performing in the league to our highest level for twenty years

Steven Gerrard is awesome isn't he?