Sport Liverpool Football Club

[Commander Jameson]

Everyone keeps saying how crap Liverpool's squad is, and well yeah it has some glaring holes, but I think we can agree they should be doing a lot better regardless. Hodgson must be the problem; it seems his first instinct when things aren't going well, like a lot of British managers is to revert to smash-and-grab football. The squad just isn't right for that, you've got a lot of playmakers who want to play nice tippy-tappy football in pretty triangles. He's tried everything else, so why not indulge their wishes. This Liverpool squad could play a more continental style of football, keeping the ball like their lives depend on it, and stroking it around waiting for an opening rather than rushing things. Torres shouldn't be given the ball unless it is intended to be the final ball. Do you lot think I'm mad, or do I have a point?

Not mad, for sure.

It's not that Hodgson has tried everything; he's only trying his one tactic, the one that has seen him through 35 years. Two banks of four, playing deep. That isn't the way we've been set out in the past which is why Torres is so isolated up front.

Check out the chalkboards for yesterday's game and the corresponding fixture from last season for Reina:

We don't play the pressing game high up the pitch, causing opposition defenders to make mistakes and then for Kuyt, Gerrard, Torres to capitalise on them.

Hodgson had the opportunity to do this last night by playing Raul and Lucas in the centre and playing Gerrard off Torres, but chose to break up the Raul/Lucas partnership and put Gerrard back there.

[Liamness]

Those two chalkboards are pretty stark, especially considering the reputation of Reina's distribution. Some of your current defenders can't really be trusted to play the ball out intelligently, but he can. If there's not much time left and you need a goal, sure blast it up, but otherwise it's a waste of his ability. You all know how he can start off moves from deep.

Staying higher up the pitch and pressing is obviously the ideal, but the problem then is that your defence is relatively slow. If you were to play like that, then keeping the ball would become incredibly important, you can't give too many opportunities on the break. Staying deep gives the opposition too much time and space though, and you can't control the game. It's a conundrum for sure, and it's unsurprising that Hodgson is erring on the side of caution (or at least what he believes to be the safer option), with his job on the line.

[Takizawa]

Everyone keeps saying how crap Liverpool's squad is, and well yeah it has some glaring holes, but I think we can agree they should be doing a lot better regardless. Hodgson must be the problem; it seems his first instinct when things aren't going well, like a lot of British managers is to revert to smash-and-grab football. The squad just isn't right for that, you've got a lot of playmakers who want to play nice tippy-tappy football in pretty triangles. He's tried everything else, so why not indulge their wishes. This Liverpool squad could play a more continental style of football, keeping the ball like their lives depend on it, and stroking it around waiting for an opening rather than rushing things. Torres shouldn't be given the ball unless it is intended to be the final ball. Do you lot think I'm mad, or do I have a point?

I'm glad someone finally said it, strange that it wasn't a Liverpool fan

I don't have a problem with the squad, I think Mereiles was an excellent addition and I don't really mind Konchesky. The tactics have just been bizarre, or I don't know, Roy does know better than all of us and the players just haven't adapted to his style yet. One thing is massively obvious, he doesn't know how to get the best out of Torres like Bentiez did, and i've so little confidence in our back line it's an unusual feeling. When was the last time we were so shaky at the back? I can only think of a spell under Houllier when Henchoz went off the boil. Skrtel seems to have similarly lost his way, which is a shame, he was looking the real deal for a good while.

I don't know what I want to happen (other than for things to improve), i'm not gonna pretend to know more than Hodgson and I can't think of a suitable replacement. I would just love to see that resilient, occasionally flambuoyant Liverpool again, with a free-scoring Torres and the best goalkeeper in the league.

[dogsout]

I would just love to see that resilient, occasionally flambuoyant Liverpool again, with a free-scoring Torres and the best goalkeeper in the league.

Better stick the '08-'09 season review DVD on, then.

[Gabe]

Those two chalkboards are pretty stark, especially considering the reputation of Reina's distribution. Some of your current defenders can't really be trusted to play the ball out intelligently, but he can. If there's not much time left and you need a goal, sure blast it up, but otherwise it's a waste of his ability. You all know how he can start off moves from deep.

Staying higher up the pitch and pressing is obviously the ideal, but the problem then is that your defence is relatively slow. If you were to play like that, then keeping the ball would become incredibly important, you can't give too many opportunities on the break. Staying deep gives the opposition too much time and space though, and you can't control the game. It's a conundrum for sure, and it's unsurprising that Hodgson is erring on the side of caution (or at least what he believes to be the safer option), with his job on the line.

I think the main problem is that he started - and has persisted with - those tactics from the start. Equally he plays too many players out of position, which doesn't help the balance. What on earth was Kuyt doing on the left, for example?

Nobody can deny that Rafa left problems and had to go, but Roy hasn't fixed those and just introduced new ones.

[ras el hanout]

Nobody can deny that Rafa left problems and had to go, but Roy hasn't fixed those and just introduced new ones.

And this is the problem. I guess it could be argued that we need to take a step backwards to move forwards but we haven't really got that luxury. CL was a realistic goal for this season but we just haven't seen the improvements and with the fans eager to boo the manager and cetain players then it's just going to make it more difficult. There's literally no way that Roy could turn this around. Not without winning the PL.

That's why I think Roy should go. He hasn't got the support of the fans because we're not actually as great as the media said we were. We don't need somebody to build their vision at the moment, we need somebody just to wring the best out of the players we currently have and surprisingly to me, because I thought we'd have seen improvements by now, that doesn't seem to be Roy.

I'd like to see Sammy Lee go first.

And it's all very well wishing for a free scoring torres and a great keeper but we won duck (fuck/dick) all then so perhaps it could be argued to get a free scoring torres the results must suffer. Somebody was going on about what a great job Rafa was doing getting the best out of Eto'o, even though Inter's results weren't great.

Imagine the riot if Roy had tried to take Torres off the other night. It would have been a bloodbath, so imagine trying to manage with that backdrop.

We were beaten by the bottom of the table team last year. Often we've been outplayed by incredibly poor teams. It's nothing new but Roy was brought in to change that, he hasn't and without the backing of the supporters he won't.

[Chewylegs]

You seem to be saying in your post ramone that if Roy had the backing of the supporters we'd be doing better. I rather think its his complete ineptitude when it comes to tactics that has us where we are.

[ras el hanout]

You seem to be saying in your post ramone that if Roy had the backing of the supporters we'd be doing better. I rather think its his complete ineptitude when it comes to tactics that has us where we are.

I think if he had the backing of the supporters we would be doing better. Everybody is mental for tactics these days but tactics come secondary to controlling the ball and passing it, if you can't do that then tactics aren't going to help. The team couldn't do that. But I mean that's obvious. Rafa was a master tactician, didn't stop us getting beaten at the team at the bottom of the premiership last year, and unlike Wolves that wasn't a team which was playing well.

If tactics were all it took then management would be easy, we have a few tactical masterminds in this thread - they'd be able to manage!

No, I think the talk of tactics is stupid when it's clear the team are still low on confidence. That's where Roy has failed, not in his tactics, the players still can't kick the ball to each other and waiting for the fans to start booing won't help that.

[El Pibe]

his signings haven't sparked either. Joe Cole is a good player, but has been a nothing so far at Liverpool. The others have either been poor or inconsistant and played out of position! Add that to a weaking squad and you're in trouble.

New manager probably needed, big budget to plug the squad gaps certainly required.

Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't Cole brought in before Hodgson or at least the deal was already agreed?

Poulson and Konchesky are the problem signings.

[Reynard]

Cole was apparently a Purslow signing (like Hodgson himself then).

[dogsout]

I think if he had the backing of the supporters we would be doing better. Everybody is mental for tactics these days but tactics come secondary to controlling the ball and passing it, if you can't do that then tactics aren't going to help. The team couldn't do that. But I mean that's obvious. Rafa was a master tactician, didn't stop us getting beaten at the team at the bottom of the premiership last year, and unlike Wolves that wasn't a team which was playing well.

If tactics were all it took then management would be easy, we have a few tactical masterminds in this thread - they'd be able to manage!

No, I think the talk of tactics is stupid when it's clear the team are still low on confidence. That's where Roy has failed, not in his tactics, the players still can't kick the ball to each other and waiting for the fans to start booing won't help that.

But the tactical approach amplifies the fear in our play. You can't tell me that sitting the midfield so deep and telling everyone to hoof it, rather than pass it out of defence, can encourage confidence in our play. Think about it: "I want you boys to go out and play with confidence, but don't push too high up the pitch, and make sure you don't try to pass it out from the back - who knows what they'll do to us if we try stuff like that". You can blame it on the fans as much as you like, the way Roy sets us up does us no favours whatsoever.

I think you're quite right when you say there is much more to football than tactics; the success of Harry Redknapp is proof of that. But Roy has failed in other areas, too. What happened to the arm around the shoulder, great man-management he is so famous for? What about all of the crazy things he has said since he's been here that have been largely swept under the carpet by the media up until recently? None of that can be good for the players' confidence.

[Guest]

Here's a summary.

Too old, stupid face, fuck off.

Happy new year Roy!

[Takizawa]

Here's a summary.

Too old, stupid face, fuck off.

Happy new year Roy!

How grown up of you.

[Guest]

How grown up of you.

Damn this new year drinking lark!

Happy new year Liverpool fans. 2011 has to be much better than 2010 fo sho

[SMD]

According to tomorrow's Times, Hodgson is now a dead man walking. He's going to be replaced asap apparently. This is according to Jim Boardman.

[Stig]

Ive read that the owners are extremely unhappy that Roys had a go at the fans.

Please sack him and get the inevitable over with

[Reynard]

But the tactical approach amplifies the fear in our play. You can't tell me that sitting the midfield so deep and telling everyone to hoof it, rather than pass it out of defence, can encourage confidence in our play. Think about it: "I want you boys to go out and play with confidence, but don't push too high up the pitch, and make sure you don't try to pass it out from the back - who knows what they'll do to us if we try stuff like that". You can blame it on the fans as much as you like, the way Roy sets us up does us no favours whatsoever.

I think you're quite right when you say there is much more to football than tactics; the success of Harry Redknapp is proof of that. But Roy has failed in other areas, too. What happened to the arm around the shoulder, great man-management he is so famous for? What about all of the crazy things he has said since he's been here that have been largely swept under the carpet by the media up until recently? None of that can be good for the players' confidence.

Confidence is a massive part of football in my view - I was repeatedly making that point last season to the naysayers, but it wasn't really taken seriously by them.

To completely discount tactics is lunacy though.

This whole situation is maddening. Really frustrating. Last season, we were told time and again by the media that all of the problems were down to Benitez's cold methods with the players and that he had lost the dressing room. All we needed was a new guy who would come in and get everyone playing to their potential again. Hodgson was their man.

In fact, Broughton said the following during the press conference when unveiling Hodgson:

“He [Hodgson] wanted to focus on how he could get more out of the existing players. His focus wasn't on 'how much money can I have?' or 'I want to bring this person in or that person in' - he was really focused on 'I believe, and I've got a track record that demonstrates it, that I can take the existing players, get much better performances out of them and buy constructively to build for a better future.'”

So, we struggle again, but this time the goal posts are moved. "Ah, no, it's not Roy's fault" they now say. "It's the squad that he inherited from Benitez that isn't good enough after having had a gazillion pounds wasted on it!" Ah, the same squad minus a player or two a lot of you were tipping for the title the season prior or the squad that you said just needed a good, honest British manager to guide them? The squad that Hodgson himself claimed he could 'get much better performances out of'? That squad?

"It's the players' fault!" Is it? How come it wasn't their fault last season and it was all the manager's? Oh, it's the fans is it? We didn't like Hodgson from the start, so we never gave him a chance and it's down to that? Our away form is what's really let us down so far this season, but our away support has been fantastic.

Can't believe the lack of any kind of in-depth analysis on our set-up or tactics. Completely no comprehension or just not considered by the tools in the media - they only notice simple shit like whether a team is defending a corner zonally or if Gerrard is playing in his favoured central position (but never observing if it's having an adverse affect on team shape) . Haven't heard a single pundit pass meaningful comment on our tactical approach to games this season.

Like you say though, dogsout, their silence regarding Hodgson's performance (and how it is worlds away from their prescribed remedy) or his series of ridiculous statements is deafening. Most of them (especially the likes of Henry Winter and Patrick Barclay) are in danger of being exposed as complete idiots.

You have to cast the net wider to get any kind of decent comment regarding our current situation. Here's a good one from Sports Illustrated: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/jen_chang/12/30/hodgson.liverpool/index.html

[SMD]

Patrick Barclay blamed the fans today in his latest article, apparently:

Calls for a messiah are not worthy of Anfield

Patrick Barclay Chief Football Commentator

None of the 42,529 present will ever forget it: the night in early May 2005 when the irresistible force that Liverpool can be at Anfield took on the immovable object that was José Mourinho’s Chelsea and the immovable object moved.

A much-disputed goal by Luis García did the trick. Liverpool proceeded to a Champions League final against AC Milan in Istanbul which they should have lost but won. When the clubs reconvened in Athens two years later, Liverpool should have won but lost.

And in the process a view emerged that Liverpool and Milan shared something in their DNA that entitled them perpetually to be contesting the game’s great prizes.

The trouble is that, in order even to take part in the Champions League, English and Italian clubs must finish at least fourth in their domestic leagues. And thus, while Milan prepare to meet Tottenham Hotspur in the round of 16 in February, Liverpool have only emptiness and aspiration; the sort of aspiration Newcastle United supporters encounter when an FA Cup draw takes place and their club is not in it.

How unrealistic is the Liverpool dream? I confess that, when Roy Hodgson was appointed manager in the summer, the notion of their finishing fourth and qualifying for next season’s Champions League seemed feasible. After all, a similar squad — crucially augmented by Xabi Alonso and Javier Mascherano, it must be conceded — had finished second little over a year earlier.

Events have made a nonsense of this and Wednesday night’s home defeat by Wolverhampton Wanderers left Hodgson’s Liverpool in the bottom half of the table, more concerned about the possibility of visiting Doncaster Rovers next season than jousting again with the likes of Milan.

Poor though the team were, however, nothing insulted the club’s traditions more than the chant aimed at their manager, whom the FA has considered as a potential successor to Fabio Capello. “Hodgson for England” yelled sections of a support once regarded as fundamental to the fortress-like character of Anfield. Today, when Bolton Wanderers come, the same people will belt out You’ll Never Walk Alone without a whit of irony.

Anfield will always be a great place to watch football. But it has been belittled in the eyes of the wider game. The neutrals privileged to be there in May 2005 will always remember the winter when Anfield went flaky, not only pointing Hodgson to the door but holding it open — let’s not forget this either — to Kenny Dalglish.

My impression is that, although disgruntled Liverpool fans have a huge variety of alternatives to Hodgson in mind, most want Dalglish in at least temporary charge (the more delusional imagine that Pep Guardiola or some such luminary will beat a path to Anfield at the end of the season).

Some want Rafael Benítez — free after his dismissal by Inter Milan and still regarded by many as the club’s best manager since Dalglish reeled away, suffering terrible symptoms of stress, in 1991 — back straight away. But essentially there is a yearning for an icon.

Remind you of any other club? It would do if they yearned for Kevin Keegan rather than Dalglish. Sections of Liverpool’s support have come to resemble their Newcastle equivalents in times of disappointment: angry rather than sad, but still bereft. And now ready to welcome a messiah. Newcastle fans, weighing the respective merits of Keegan and Dalglish at St James’ Park, might even joke that they’ve picked the wrong one.

I am in no position to mock Anfield. Not after having counselled that the Hodgson effect, most recently noted in carrying Fulham to their highest ever league position and a Europa League final, would work on Liverpool by Christmas. But what is the point of making things worse by weakening your own manager? It can only eat into the players’ commitment.

Liverpool fans used to know that instinctively. When they sang it, they meant it. The spirit of Bill Shankly, whose idea it was to play You’ll Never Walk Alone before every home match, permeated Anfield.

It was there that night in May 2005. The team sent out to do battle with Frank Lampard, John Terry, Didier Drogba and Claude Makélelé featured Djimi Traoré and Igor Biscan and I do not recall anyone decrying them for having been promoted above their level (a common, and rather impudent, accusation made against Hodgson now) or chanting for alternatives.

Perhaps Wednesday was just part of the cycle of change and decay. The traditional supporter, seldom more knowledgeable than at Anfield (and those of the view that Hodgson should never have been appointed are more than entitled to claim vindication), is surrounded by the products of instant networking and facile punditry and sometimes the beautiful noise becomes a cacophony of disrespect.

Six months ago Hodgson was, by near-universal acclaim, an excellent manager, the toast of not only pundits but his peers. He is the same man. But the Liverpool he thought he was joining has changed.

[Guest]

Ive read that the owners are extremely unhappy that Roys had a go at the fans.

Please sack him and get the inevitable over with

It really was a stupid thing to say from Hoggle.

He's apparently massively experienced, has surely had many a press conference, and yet he had to criticise the fans "in answer to a question" and then backtrack and basically put the blame at the feet of reporters.

It's entirely ridiculous for someone of that stature and with so many fans listening to him for him to criticise the fan base for the entire time he's been there.

Why would you do that? We've seen many a quote by him though, and surely by now at 63 he won't change. 63 and he cannot act with any sort of class.

He'll only get worse as he is "under pressure". Still no excuse for a near pensioner. If age brings wisdom wheres his?

Facts. His tactics are wrong. Were losing easy games. The Chelsea win was a false Dawn, one where they were about to lose to everyone.

Can anyone here really put up a valid arguement as to why he should have more time?

[SMD]

To see just how far ramone can stretch it.

[Guest]

+1

[christaylor]

Liverpool's owners seek replacement for Roy Hodgson:

http://m.guardian.co.uk/ms/p/gnm/op/svuJzfHeuIUtOI7nF8dg6uA/view.m?id=15&gid=football/2010/dec/31/roy-hodgson-liverpool-woes&cat=sport

All those quotes from Hodgson are so navel-gazingly negative.

[ras el hanout]

But the tactical approach amplifies the fear in our play. You can't tell me that sitting the midfield so deep and telling everyone to hoof it, rather than pass it out of defence, can encourage confidence in our play. Think about it: "I want you boys to go out and play with confidence, but don't push too high up the pitch, and make sure you don't try to pass it out from the back - who knows what they'll do to us if we try stuff like that". You can blame it on the fans as much as you like, the way Roy sets us up does us no favours whatsoever.

I think you're quite right when you say there is much more to football than tactics; the success of Harry Redknapp is proof of that. But Roy has failed in other areas, too. What happened to the arm around the shoulder, great man-management he is so famous for? What about all of the crazy things he has said since he's been here that have been largely swept under the carpet by the media up until recently? None of that can be good for the players' confidence.

Oh I wasn't just blaming the fans. I do think it affects the performances though just as all the other things you mention do. But it's Roys job to get them playing relaxed and confident and that's not happening so he should carry the can for that.

[a big boy]

I think its right for fans to boo teams that put in performances that are unacceptable. It lets the board know that things aren't good enough and forces their hand. Conversely, giving unconditional support to a manager no matter how bad things have got makes it that much harder to sack someone who needs to go. For instance, Roy Hodgson.

[ras el hanout]

I think its right for fans to boo teams that put in performances like that. It lets the board know that things aren't good enough and forces their hand. Conversely, giving unconditional support to a manager no matter how bad things have got makes it that much harder to sack someone who needs to go. For instance, Roy Hodgson.

Nice one, Brains.

[a big boy]

Yeah you sure know when you've been zinged by ramone

[ras el hanout]

Why would a manager with unconditional support get the sack, Rain Man?

[a big boy]

That's what I'm saying. If a manager's doing a shit job and needs to be sacked then the fans cheering him on regardless might cause the board to bottle the decision.

[Yiggy]

But the public boo half the time with no good reason. The fans think they know everything when at least half the time they know fuck all.

Opinions are like arseholes etc. When the manager starts listening to the fans he needs to shut the door on his way out.

[DeNeo]

The Reds XI in full is: Reina, Johnson, Aurelio, Agger, Skrtel, Lucas, Meireles, Maxi, Kuyt, Ngog, Torres. Subs: Jones, Cole, Babel, Kelly, Poulsen, Gerrard, Kyrgiakos.

He's actually listened!