Sport Liverpool Football Club

[dogsout]

Maxi did well again, yeah. I wasn't impressed with Cole but I never have been, really! Lucas played very well, I thought. I think he plays much better when he is allowed to play box-to-box like this. It also helps when he has a similar player next to him like Meireles.

[ras el hanout]

There's no doubting that he's lacking confidence and it is affecting his performances; I'm not disputing that. But there is a massive difference in the way he's being used now, compared with the way Rafa used him. I thInk a lot of people don't really understand his game, and basically think he is a much better all-round footballer than he actually is.

I remember Rafa trying to justify his decision to sub him off in one of our many draws in Torres' first season with us. Everyone was banging on about how mental a decision it was - a lot of those same people had predicted he'd be a flop - but Rafa tried to explain that Torres can kill teams if he is afforded space. I remember being a bit bemused by his comment at the time because the Torres I had seen up until that point, was all conquering. With the benefit of a few seasons of watching him play for us, I think Rafa was spot on. There are plenty of interviews out there in which Torres talks about the vast improvement to his goalscoring since joining Liverpool. In all of them he talks about the changes Rafa made to his game, and the way the team plays to his strengths. Some of the things I'm talking about here are:

Playing 'vertically'

The early ball

Attacking freedom

He mentions these three in particular quite often. In Spain he was often tasked with playing as the second striker, dropping in and linking the play. He was also often criticised for having poor ball control, and even worse passing ability. Sound familiar? Basically, he was doing too much at Atletico, he was too heavily involved in the build up - because he was their best payer the ball often found its way to him too early. Familiar again. A lot of the same people that are slagging his performances at the moment, have spent the last three years scratching their heads at just why it is that he turns to shit when he wears a Spain shirt. He was banging in close to a goal a game at Anfield but he could only manage 1 in every 5 for Spain. The reason is obvious: his role in the team is very different; and he doesn't get the type of service he does at Liverpool. That's not to say that Spain are in any way inferior to Liverpool when it comes to creating chances (or any other way, really), just that they do not play to his strengths at all. They do not release him early, and they task all of their players with maintaining possession first and foremost.

Under Hodgson, Torres often finds himself receiving the ball with his back to goal, far away from the penalty area. People are talking about his lack of movement but they pay absolutely no attention to detail. "He must have stopped making runs because his legs don't work any more/he doesn't care". It couldn't possibly be because our midfield sit a bit deeper under Roy, and he wants Torres to act as the point of reference for them; to be a target.

Rafa got the best out of Torres, not because he was able to get the team to fashion loads of chance for him, like Arsene Wenger would if he had Torres. Rafa got the best out of him because he understood Torres' limitations, and set the team up in a way that would play to his strengths. We played with a high line, we pressed aggressively off-the-ball in an attempt to win it back high up the pitch, and then he made sure two things would happen with great regularity: 1) Torres would play 'vertically', he'd isolate the last defender and position himself to get behind him, and 2) the midfield would look to release him early. That was why his partnership with Gerrard was so good when we still had Xabi and Masch. Go back and watch some highlights of their partnership on youtube or something and you'll see, all Gerrard did was play the early ball for Torres. Have a watch of Inter and the same thing is happening there only with Eto'o instead of Torres.

Roy is doing it wrong.

but eto'o wasn't used properly last season then and mourinho won everything. Likewise torres was used properly a couple of years ago and we were miles off. So, you know? Perhaps the benefits of playing to torres' strengths don't outweigh the negatives. I mean I actually don't believe torres is as one dimensional as you suggest but then as you know i'm pretty ignorant of systems and whatnot. What I can see is torres' touch is horrible, he's slower than me at running and he looks depressed.

Rafa was moaned at for resting torres against a recently promoted Birmingham at home in torres' first season when torres was scoring like a lunatic in a game we didn't win, and now he's getting props for that? Were Birmingham unique in the way they played because torres didn't get rested much more after that. You know? If he was so right there and people who criticized so wrong then why didn't he do it again over the next years?

[ras el hanout]

Well we've beaten them 8 times in a row now I think it is, so actually it is absolutely the kind of game we normally win. If we'd beaten Birmingham I'd agree with you on that point.

But I agree it was a good result, hard-fought and it sounded like we were relatively untroubled, although should they have had a penalty or two? Lucas sounded like he had a decent game but it is interesting to hear Maxi being praised here - he wasn't made out to be having a good game according to the commentary (accused of being too lightweight away from home amongst other things). Likewise with Cole, he wasn't mentioned a great deal and when he was not much came from him (it appeared). Did he play well?

WELL as it was only our second away win of 2010 I 'd say it is the kind of game we've been struggling in,

cole was not great but he kept trying which was good. Torres was poor and everbody else looked pretty solid. It was a good performance.

[ras el hanout]

When was torres told to stop being petulant on the pitch? I'd like to see him petulant, but even that's gone. Need to relight the fire.

[dogsout]

Perhaps the benefits of playing to torres' strengths don't outweigh the negatives.

I agree. That's why I suggested (back in the summer) it may be better to sell him, bring in a huge fee, and really sort the squad out with the money we receive. I just don't think that is a sensible option any more, given the way we've played so far under Roy, as well as the signings he's made. I'm open to being persuaded otherwise but on the evidence currently available, it doesn't look good.

And just for argument's sake:

The comparison to Eto'o under Mourinho isn't a fair one because: 1) he used Milito up front instead, whereas we can only throw N'gog there, and 2) the way he used Eto'o benefited the balance of the team, whereas the way we currently use Torres benefits nobody but the opposition.

Rafa was moaned at for resting torres against a recently promoted Birmingham at home in torres' first season when torres was scoring like a lunatic in a game we didn't win, and now he's getting props for that? Were Birmingham unique in the way they played because torres didn't get rested much more after that. You know? If he was so right there and people who criticized so wrong then why didn't he do it again over the next years?

I'm not talking about that game. I was referring to a game where Torres was subbed off with 20 minutes to go for an inferior player. I can't remember the game off the top of my head, and I could be wrong about which season it was in. I just remember what Rafa said about Torres and space, and I agree.

[SMD]

Well I don't know about you but I can see that priest very clearly.

[ras el hanout]

Birmingham last season. When Gerrard was all WTF M8?

I don't know. I mean, you know, come on, Torres can't go from the best player in the world to the worst with the changing of a system that the likes of me are too stupid to notice. And if it were Babel on there, the ball bouncing off him, tripping over his own feet then we'd be all BABEL! Torres looks, to me, like he needs to go to a psychiatrist or something. If he'd gone from being great last season, having a great world cup and was now like he is I'd put it all down to Roy, not his tactics but the fact that Torres must juct hate him. The fact that Torres' poor form didn't start with the arrival of Roy makes me personally feel there's something more to it. What it is I could not guess. Torres out of position should at least be putting himself about. If he looked like he was playing well but was just ineffective then point fingers at tactics.

But at the end of the day Roy's paid to sort this stuff out and I hope he does. I don't mind if Torres is scoring, I just don't want him hanging himself.

[dogsout]

It's interesting that you mention Torres' loss of form stretching back further than just this season. How far back do you think it stretches to? I know he was poor at the WC but, although he struggled with injuries, he was still prolific last season. And that was in a team that provided him with service which I described as "embarrassing" at the time.

The only way I can see Roy 'fixing' him is if he brings in a big guy to play alongside him and take over the role of target man. In order to achieve this we'd have to switch to 4-4-2, which would cause a lot of problems thanks to the type of midfielders we have. We'd be looking at bringing in a completely different kind of wide player, possibly two, as well as putting the shackles on one of Gerrard or Meireles, possibly both. I think that it could be done, I just don't trust Roy to do it.

[ras el hanout]

It's interesting that you mention Torres' loss of form stretching back further than just this season. How far back do you think it stretches to? I know he was poor at the WC but, although he struggled with injuries, he was still prolific last season. And that was in a team that provided him with service which I described as "embarrassing" at the time.

The only way I can see Roy 'fixing' him is if he brings in a big guy to play alongside him and take over the role of target man. In order to achieve this we'd have to switch to 4-4-2, which would cause a lot of problems thanks to the type of midfielders we have. We'd be looking at bringing in a completely different kind of wide player, possibly two, as well as putting the shackles on one of Gerrard or Meireles, possibly both. I think that it could be done, I just don't trust Roy to do it.

We nearly got Kenwyn Jones! And yeah he went from injured to being rubbish at the WC to being rubbish. You can't point to when it started. His injury?

But, jesus, you know. Torres could easilly have scored a couple yesterday. You know. This is what I don't understand. I mean. It wasn't like he never got near the goal or anything. I don't really understand. He's been in positions, exact same positions, as positions he's scored from in previous years so... well, you know? It looks like confidence is the problem because he could have a couple more goals so far this season - he's missed chances, miscontrolled the ball that have had nothing to do with anything tactical - and then, well Roy might not be getting the most out of him but at least he'd be getting something.

I'm not sure what you're suggesting? Get rid of him? Get rid of roy? Get Kenwyn Jones?

[dogsout]

I'm not sure what you're suggesting? Get rid of him? Get rid of roy? Get Kenwyn Jones?

One of the three, I guess. But not Kenwyne, somebody that does his job, only better.

Some of the things that you describe up there (poor touch, for example) are typical of a player not fitting into a tactical framework. Torres is very good at controlling the ball at pace, and using his ability to quickly shift his balance and use his momentum to trick his way past people, he's not so good at controlling the ball when he's having to bring it down out of the sky, or run towards it and then hold it up. His confidence is clearly low at the moment, and no doubt that is contributing to his hesitance in possession. I just happen to think he is suffering more from a lack of confidence in the tactics than his own ability. But there you go. You can only live on recirculated air for so long, so I'll leave it at.

[a big boy]

So Rafa's had a pop at Hodgson.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2010/nov/01/rafael-benitez-roy-hodgson-liverpool

Is it true that he only spent £10m net?

[ras el hanout]

Per season.

[ras el hanout]

One of the three, I guess. But not Kenwyne, somebody that does his job, only better.

Some of the things that you describe up there (poor touch, for example) are typical of a player not fitting into a tactical framework. Torres is very good at controlling the ball at pace, and using his ability to quickly shift his balance and use his momentum to trick his way past people, he's not so good at controlling the ball when he's having to bring it down out of the sky, or run towards it and then hold it up. His confidence is clearly low at the moment, and no doubt that is contributing to his hesitance in possession. I just happen to think he is suffering more from a lack of confidence in the tactics than his own ability. But there you go. You can only live on recirculated air for so long, so I'll leave it at.

OKay but I don't think you're right. You talk about him not being able to bring the ball out of the air, or control the ball, like suddenly the ball's being hoofed up to him which isn't true, so i'll leave it at that.

[The Fox]

Does Benitez actually ever talk about Inter in his interviews? He seems to be really struggling to just let it go.

[Reynard]

Well he was going to asked about it wasn't he.

Blame our press for bringing it up.

[Rev]

Well he was going to asked about it wasn't he.

Blame our press for bringing it up.

"I don't have anything to say about Liverpool" would be a pretty good answer if he didn't want to say anything about Liverpool.

[The Fox]

Well he was going to asked about it wasn't he.

Blame our press for bringing it up.

He doesn't have to talk about it though does he. He could be respectful and classy and rebuff any attempts to get a bitchy soundbite out of him, but he chooses not to time and time again and comes off looking like a bitter twat as a result.

[Reynard]

"I don't have anything to say about Liverpool" would be a pretty good answer if he didn't want to say anything about Liverpool.

Rubbish, he's been getting ripped ever since he went by our media and has now been accused of freezing out a club legend (after bringing him to the club in the first place).

He has every right to defend himself (if asked about it).

EDIT: Sorry, not 'rubbish' - just don't agree. No need for that (it's your opinion).

[The Fox]

Why would he get butthurt about what English papers are saying? He lives in Italy, why does he give a fuck?

Also, attacking Hodgson/Hicks/Gillette/everyone else at every available opportunity has nothing to do with defending himself about accusations of freezing out players.

edit: oh you're talking about Dalglish I guess, point still stands though

[Rev]

Someone in the office has just suggested that maybe he is doing it to emulate Mourinho a bit. That does make sense.

[The Fox]

I don't remember Mourinho being quite so frequent in his whining though, and I also don't remember him being particularly barbed towards Scolari at any point.

I'm not saying Benitez doesn't have any cause to feel aggrieved, I just don't understand why it bothers him to the point where you get these comments coming out from him seemingly on a weekly basis. I mean, you're managing the European champions and you live in Milan. So be happy with your lot and stop caring so much about the trolling of English hacks, y'know?

[Reynard]

Why would he get butthurt about what English papers are saying? He lives in Italy, why does he give a fuck?

Also, attacking Hodgson/Hicks/Gillette/everyone else at every available opportunity has nothing to do with defending himself about accusations of freezing out players.

edit: oh you're talking about Dalglish I guess, point still stands though

Come on, it's not as if he's verbally lashing out without provacation; he's been accused of a couple of things (both bollocks, by the looks of it), has been asked about it by our press in a Champions League press conference when his current team are playing Spurs (why ask him? Just ask him about the game) and has responded to the allegations made by defending himself and his legacy (of which the latter has been savaged since his departure). It's not as if he's walked into the press conference and announced, "Right, before I say anything about the game, I just want to talk about x, y ,z".

[Rev]

I don't remember Mourinho being quite so frequent in his whining though, and I also don't remember him being particularly barbed towards Scolari at any point.

I more meant the general "say something attention grabbing" than the specifics of it.

[ras el hanout]

Rubbish, he's been getting ripped ever since he went by our media and has now been accused of freezing out a club legend (after bringing him to the club in the first place).

He has every right to defend himself (if asked about it).

EDIT: Sorry, not 'rubbish' - just don't agree. No need for that (it's your opinion).

He deserves to get ripped ffs. He left the squad in a shambles in 7th place! And he's defending himself against newspaper articles by attacking Roy. That's crazy, saying we have a lot of players not good enough is not attacking rafa. It was the papers that turned that into "Roy blasts rafa's flops" likewise Roy wouldn't just make up that dalglish wasn't welcome at melwood. It would be a crazy thing to make up. So Roy with constant suggestions that dalglish wants his job says "I welcome kenny at melwood, not like the previous manager." and it's seen by rafa and his supports as an all out attack. Soon rafa will start falling out with everybody at inter. It's what he does.

[ras el hanout]

and has responded to the allegations made by defending himself and his legacy (of which the latter has been savaged since his departure).

legacy? That's a bit much isn't it?

[Reynard]

Do me a favour, ramone, don't bother replying to my posts. It's already something I try to do with some of your more gobshite ones.

[ras el hanout]

Do me a favour, ramone, don't bother replying to my posts. It's already something I try to do with some of your more gobshite ones.

I'm not replying for your benefit, you're a lost cause. I was highlighting the stupid points in your post so that other more reasonable people would not be taken in by your seemingly innocent post.

I mean what could you reply? That actually I'm right and Roy wasn't really attacking rafa? That rafa should Not be responding to newspaper articles? Again, no need to reply, this is for others.

[ras el hanout]

This is roy's attack on rafa.

"I think you can pay an awful lot of money for poor players and you can pay not very much money for very good ones – it is all to do with how good your scouting and your eye is. There are a lot of things here that the club has got to get right. We have got a lot more expensive failures on our list than good players that we have brought in for next to nothing. Free transfers don’t necessarily mean that you have got a bargain. My experience of them has been very mixed. You need to be sure that the player you get can do the job you want from him.”

oof, no wonder rafa got mad!

[Takizawa]

So the English media reports on one of Rafa's press conferences where he speaks about Liverpool, and we suddenly decide that he's never given a press conference about his current club Inter? What a load of shite.

[SMD]

Why would he get butthurt about what English papers are saying? He lives in Italy, why does he give a fuck?

His family still live here.