Sport Liverpool Football Club

[ras el hanout]

The other week somebody was saying something about gerrard and torres not snogging after one of them scored. Maybe that's something to do with it? Maybe they've fallen out? Maybe that's why gerrard's not providing him with the service and why torres looks on the verge of tears? I can't see gerrard ignoring passes to torres because of a system Roy wants to play. Food for fought.

[fat flatulent git]

There will be few complaints if Kenny is drafted

What successful reappointments at other clubs spring to mind, if any?

I don't think it is quite as mental as Newcastle reappointing Keegan, but it still seems a little too much like a bizarre trip down memory lane to me.

[ras el hanout]

We got to the Europa League semi final, or did that pass you by? We've pretty much only played well against Bucharest, that was it.

Oh, wait, Ramone's reverted to his previous trollings.

Hodgson did get support, he's pissed it all away. And you're right, we don't sack managers but we've never had one this bad. The last time we had one approaching this level of shite was when we got relegated in the 50s.

Rafa was sacked because 'seventh wasn't good enough'. Hodgson was brought in to 'steady the ship' and 'put an arm around the players'. Well all he's done is steady the Titanic and alienate half the squad.

The names being put forward are (in particular order) Rafa, Kenny, Laudrup (Michael) and Pellegrini. All of whom I would like to see as manager.

do you remember how we got in the Europa league?

But I agree with, we should sack bad managers, my point was you're all fucking hypocrites. We either give a manager time or we don't. The excuses for one manager must work on the next. You know? It's great!

But bring rafa back, they're genuinely suggesting that are they? That is funny but it's like not laughing funny it's more WAT???

[ras el hanout]

And to be clear. Rafa wasn't sacked for finishing 7th. He was sacked for finishing 7th in the 6th season in charge with a squad he built.

Rafa wouldn't have been sacked for finishing 7th in his first season.

[redbloodcell]

What successful reappointments at other clubs spring to mind, if any?

Capello did win La Liga with Real when he went back, got sacked right after though.

Daglish has been around your club but not exactly in the management game, you'd be much better off with someone who has recent experience like Pellegrini.

[dogsout]

What successful reappointments at other clubs spring to mind, if any?

Capello at Real Madrid.

Let's not forget, Kenny wasn't sacked. He wasn't under-performing; we all know the reasons behind his departure. He has remained involved in the game and the club. He has worked with this group of players under Rafa, and he commands respect and adulation in a way that only Mourinho could claim to at another club. Could he really do any worse than what we're seeing at the moment? What would be more of a gamble: keeping Roy until the end of the season/January, or letting Kenny step in now? Kenny was asked to go out and find a replacement for Rafa, and bearing in mind his long-standing friendship with Roy, he still thought himself the best candidate available. That's good enough for me.

I think it's important that we have a manager that understands the club, and I'm not just talking about The Liverpool Way here. I'm talking about pass and move, someone that can rally the fans and get a bit of passion back into our stadium. It could go wrong - although I doubt it could get any worse than it currently is - but then it could end up being so right.

[Rev]

Have you really got good enough players to really cement a top-half season at the moment? Obviously they are all playing badly, but even if they were all playing to the best of their ability I'm not convinced they're an impressive bunch. Ignoring Gerrard, you've gone from Alonso, Mascherano and Benayoun in midfield to Lucas as your best central midfielder. That on its own explains a drop of 6 or 7 positions to me. Of course Torres was going to play better with them behind him.

[ras el hanout]

Capello at Real Madrid.

Let's not forget, Kenny wasn't sacked. He wasn't under-performing; we all know the reasons behind his departure. He has remained involved in the game and the club. He has worked with this group of players under Rafa, and he commands respect and adulation in a way that only Mourinho could claim to at another club. Could he really do any worse than what we're seeing at the moment? What would be more of a gamble: keeping Roy until the end of the season/January, or letting Kenny step in now? Kenny was asked to go out and find a replacement for Rafa, and bearing in mind his long-standing friendship with Roy, he still thought himself the best candidate available. That's good enough for me.

I think it's important that we have a manager that understands the club, and I'm not just talking about The Liverpool Way here. I'm talking about pass and move, someone that can rally the fans and get a bit of passion back into our stadium. It could go wrong - although I doubt it could get any worse than it currently is - but then it could end up being so right.

There's only one way to find out. I'm not sure what you mean when comparing adulation with mourinho, from who? I'm sure a lot of our players have no real knowledge of dalglish other than he hangs around the club. Mourinho get's the support of his players from what he does, not from who he is. But he couldn't get worse results than we're getting now. He's around the club and hasn't made any impact so he's never going to have the impact of a new guy coming in. Impact, have you ever seen somebody use that word so much? That's what we need, somebody to shake shit up.

He wouldn't be my first choice but I'm not against the idea.

[rjpageuk]

I reckon and so it seems he's probably not the right man however that doesn't mean the sacking of rafa wasn't the correct thing to do.

If you dont have a decent replacement lined up then you should think twice about sacking your manager. How can it ever be right to sack a manager if you dont plan to replace him with something that is better? That is the big difference between Houllier being replaced by Benitez (who had a growing reputation from his exploits in Spain) to replacing Benitez with Hodgson.

I think SMD you are wrong too, many Liverpool fans never wanted to give Hodgson a chance because they didnt want to lose Rafa in the first place and especially not to someone who has a worse managerial record. It is only ever going to be a step backwards. Had Benitez have been replaced by any of the top managers (who of course would never have touched the Liverpool job in a million years) you wouldnt have seen anything like the same backlash.

The fact we have had such a disastrous start just reinforces that view, even if it cannot all be blamed on Hodgson. Whatever reason he was picked in the first place still stands, and I think it is ridiculous people are talking about replacing him after 8 league games.

EDIT: I thought dogsout had talked about people giving Hodgson support at the start but realised I was wrong and it was SMD, so I edited my post.

[dogsout]

I'm not sure what you mean when comparing adulation with mourinho, from who? I'm sure a lot of our players have no real knowledge of dalglish other than he hangs around the club.

Kenny is like a God at Liverpool. Plenty of the current squad know all about him, and for those that don't, to see how he is revered by the others would surely do the trick. Particularly if he can get them playing properly again.

He wouldn't be my first choice but I'm not against the idea.

Same here, basically.

[ras el hanout]

If you dont have a decent replacement lined up then you should think twice about sacking your manager. How can it ever be right to sack a manager if you dont plan to replace him with something that is better? That is the big difference between Houllier being replaced by Benitez (who had a growing reputation from his exploits in Spain) to replacing Benitez with Hodgson.

I think dogsout you are wrong too, many Liverpool fans never wanted to give Hodgson a chance because they didnt want to lose Rafa in the first place and especially not to someone who has a worse managerial record. It is only ever going to be a step backwards. Had Benitez have been replaced by any of the top managers (who of course would never have touched the Liverpool job in a million years) you wouldnt have seen anything like the same backlash.

The fact we have had such a disastrous start just reinforces that view, even if it cannot all be blamed on Hodgson. Whatever reason he was picked in the first place still stands, and I think it is ridiculous people are talking about replacing him after 8 league games.

hodgson had a worse record because he'd never taken over a top Spanish or English team like rafa or other big names had. These top managers are only top managers because the get the chance to manage a top club. Before Valencia rafa wasn't considered a top manger, a top team has to take s chance on them. That's what happened with Roy. Early signs aren't promising but there are no sure things in football.

[dogsout]

The fact we have had such a disastrous start just reinforces that view, even if it cannot all be blamed on Hodgson. Whatever reason he was picked in the first place still stands, and I think it is ridiculous people are talking about replacing him after 8 league games.

This is a good point, too. The thing is, though: how long do you wait before cutting your losses? I think I'm right in saying that he had a very slow start at Fulham, too. I think it was 7 points from their first 8 games under him, and then something just clicked and they started racking points up. Obviously we live in hope that he can do the same (but better) with us, but I can't believe how bad we've looked under him so far.

[ras el hanout]

The only way we would know if Roy was worse than rafa is to put them in exactly the same positions. The same money, a young gerrard, cl football and six years. That's the only way we'd no for certain. Otherwise we're guessing.

This is a good point, too. The thing is, though: how long do you wait before cutting your losses? I think I'm right in saying that he had a very slow start at Fulham, too. I think it was 7 points from their first 8 games under him, and then something just clicked and they started racking points up. Obviously we live in hope that he can do the same (but better) with us, but I can't believe how bad we've looked under him so far.

12 games

[rjpageuk]

This is a good point, too. The thing is, though: how long do you wait before cutting your losses?

I would give him at least until the end of the season unless it still looks like we may get relegated by Christmas. Then something will have to be done as being relegated would be a complete disaster.

The problem I have with Dalglish is that he was already part of the shortlist for the job in the first place, and Hodgson was picked ahead of him. Dalglish is rightly revered by Liverpool fans and players alike, but I think his appointment could be a bit of a disaster as anything but a stop-gap.

[dogsout]

The problem I have with Dalglish is that he was already part of the shortlist for the job in the first place, and Hodgson was picked ahead of him.

That's not true. He was never considered for the job, despite making it known that he wanted it. He put his name forward and he wasn't considered; he was told straight away that the board preferred to offer him a more permanent role.

[SMD]

If you dont have a decent replacement lined up then you should think twice about sacking your manager. How can it ever be right to sack a manager if you dont plan to replace him with something that is better? That is the big difference between Houllier being replaced by Benitez (who had a growing reputation from his exploits in Spain) to replacing Benitez with Hodgson.

I think SMD you are wrong too, many Liverpool fans never wanted to give Hodgson a chance because they didnt want to lose Rafa in the first place and especially not to someone who has a worse managerial record. It is only ever going to be a step backwards. Had Benitez have been replaced by any of the top managers (who of course would never have touched the Liverpool job in a million years) you wouldnt have seen anything like the same backlash.

The fact we have had such a disastrous start just reinforces that view, even if it cannot all be blamed on Hodgson. Whatever reason he was picked in the first place still stands, and I think it is ridiculous people are talking about replacing him after 8 league games.

EDIT: I thought dogsout had talked about people giving Hodgson support at the start but realised I was wrong and it was SMD, so I edited my post.

I didn't want Hodgson, was appalled by his appointment but I didn't want to be proved right. There were some idiots who were saying they wanted to lose the derby so that Hodgson would go. I'm like, how the fuck can you even contemplate losing the derby? I'm not Scouse but every time I go up to Liverpool, it's a nightmare if a Bluenose gets hold of you. There are plenty of sound ones but they'll give you a ribbing any chance they get.

I want Liverpool to win. To an extent, I don't care who the manager is if we're winning and progressing. I didn't think Hodgson could do that but understood that he needed support.

I just think that given the circumstances and what he was brought in to do, he's failed miserably in every way. Not only that, his media comments are shocking and disrespectful.

A proper Liverpool fan doesn't want anyone associated with the club to fail. I don't think much of Joe Cole, while others do, and I think Lucas is promising, while others don't.

I want them both to perform well, as that benefits the side. It's something I never got, why on earth would you want anyone to fail?

I was concerned about signing Crouch but I desperately wanted him to do well and was ecstatic when he broke his duck against Wigan. I wasn't proud that Diouf, Diao and Cheyrou were shite.

I cringe at the players we signed in the 90s, like Leonhardsen, Kvarme or Song. But their success is our success.

Just like it was obvious that Diouf wasn't going to cut it, neither will Hodgson. We persisted with Diouf, playing him all over the shop trying to justify his signing (over Anelka).

It set us back, when we should've cut our losses.

That's what we need now. We have new owners, we'll get a new board, let them pick a new manager and hopefully everyone can start afresh.

[SMD]

hodgson had a worse record because he'd never taken over a top Spanish or English team like rafa or other big names had. These top managers are only top managers because the get the chance to manage a top club. Before Valencia rafa wasn't considered a top manger, a top team has to take s chance on them. That's what happened with Roy. Early signs aren't promising but there are no sure things in football.

His record at Inter and Blackburn is poor.

[Rev]

His record at Inter and Blackburn is poor.

That's not really true. Not great, but not terrible either.

[SMD]

That's not really true. Not great, but not terrible either.

With Inter, his win percentage (full time) is 44.19%. At Blackburn it was 35.48% and his second season saw one win in 14.

For the squads he inherited and the signings he made, that's poor. Especially at Inter, where he had some stars there.

[ras el hanout]

And the jobs in spain rafa was sacked from? How was his record there?

[the_debaser]

The way Liverpool were playing in the second half of last season it's clear Rafa isn't the answer. It's easy to look back and think he was great, especially in comparison to Hodgson, but you were basically in freefall before he packed his bags. You played some of the most negative horrible football last year and it's just easy to forget that now.

[ras el hanout]

I wasn't proud that Diouf, Diao and Cheyrou were shite.

I cringe at the players we signed in the 90s, like Leonhardsen, Kvarme or Song. But their success is our success.

Just like it was obvious that Diouf wasn't going to cut it, neither will Hodgson. We persisted with Diouf, playing him all over the shop trying to justify his signing (over Anelka).

It set us back, when we should've cut our losses.

But you think Lucas is promising? So you're willing to give him a chance. But we should have got rid of Diouf immediately? Despite him going on to have a pretty successful Premiership career? It makes no sense. But it's no surprise to see you haven't named any of the 'flops' bought by Benitez - and there were fucking loads to choose from - and to be honest that's why I struggle to take you seriously. (As well as the lies about deals for players we had).

[ras el hanout]

The way Liverpool were playing in the second half of last season it's clear Rafa isn't the answer. It's easy to look back and think he was great, especially in comparison to Hodgson, but you were basically in freefall before he packed his bags. You played some of the most negative horrible football last year and it's just easy to forget that now.

It's nbot easy to forget just some people didn't accept it in the first place. It wasn't just last year. We played horrible football for most of his six years.

[SMD]

And the jobs in spain rafa was sacked from? How was his record there?

Team			From		To				Record
							G	W	D	L	Win %
Tenerife		19 July 2000	30 June 2001	42	21	11	10	50.00
Valencia		01 July 2001	16 June 2004	163	87	43	33	53.37
Liverpool		16 June 2004	03 June 2010	350	194	77	79	55.43
Internazionale		16 June 2010	Present		6	3	2	1	50.00
Total							557	303	131	123	54.40

The way Liverpool were playing in the second half of last season it's clear Rafa isn't the answer. It's easy to look back and think he was great, especially in comparison to Hodgson, but you were basically in freefall before he packed his bags. You played some of the most negative horrible football last year and it's just easy to forget that now.

[Rev]

With Inter, his win percentage (full time) is 44.19%. At Blackburn it was 35.48% and his second season saw one win in 14.

For the squads he inherited and the signings he made, that's poor. Especially at Inter, where he had some stars there.

Inter finished in 6th before he joined, then 7th after he joined. That's not poor, it's just unexciting. Blackburn he did well with to start with, it just all went wrong quite magnificently - but to be fair no-one else has done a particularly good job with them since either. Fulham is a much more relevant comparison - it's not a decade ago for a start - and he had a crap start there too before steadying and doing really quite well. Personally I'd give him the chance to try it at Liverpool too.

Although I do see a very strong argument for making the new owners a completely fresh start. Hiring a proper manager before changing the board, aims, approach etc. was a stupid decision on the part of the Liverpool board.

[SMD]

But you think Lucas is promising? So you're willing to give him a chance. But we should have got rid of Diouf immediately? Despite him going on to have a pretty successful Premiership career? It makes no sense. But it's no surprise to see you haven't named any of the 'flops' bought by Benitez - and there were fucking loads to choose from - and to be honest that's why I struggle to take you seriously. (As well as the lies about deals for players we had).

Lucas is promising and has shown good touches, he just doesn't get any sort of support from Carragher who refuses to pass to him.

Diouf shouldn't have been rid immediately, no, but after 6 months it was starting to look like he wasn't the prolific scorer he was claimed to be.

He was 'successful' for Bolton and Blackburn. His level. And still not a prolific scorer.

Okay, fine, let's go through the flops that Rafa bought. Fuck knows what difference it makes but let's go.

I don't think Aquilani was a flop but he was out injured too much and it was a gamble that backfired. He is quality and is showing that for Juve now.

Robbie Keane. Head too big, brain too small. Tried too hard then just got stroppy. A victim of changing circumstances but we lost £1m (we sold him for £16m up front and a further £3m after Spurs stayed up).

Babel's been forever a 'potential' star but he just doesn't seem to understand football. I think he's thick and he won't put his body in for challenges. We seemed to be in the position to start spending money on potential stars like that but then the owners started sucking the club dry and it just didn't work out. Unless by some miracle we get in a manager who knows how to make him tick, should sell him to Birmingham, West Ham or Galatasaray in January.

Dossena came as part of the plan to change the system with Keane and Degen but sadly it didn't work at all. In hindsight, we should've stuck with the same style and work the squad around that but I can see what the thinking was.

Pennant was another gamble, trying to get a winger in when we couldn't get Simao or Alves. Another thick twat who has blamed everyone but himself for his career going down the pan.

Morientes. Great name, great talent, just couldn't adjust to the pace and power of the game. Always better in Europe than the league, we signed him too late and he had no pre season either.

Paletta, cheap defender, helped us get Insua and is getting better back in Argentina. Might yet make it back in Europe, we'll see.

Mark Gonzalez was expected to be first choice but should've been an understudy. Needed to sell to get the funds to sign better first team players, still he's doing alright for himself now.

Degen, free, injury prone as fuck, a punt that didn't work out.

Nunez' best contribution is being part of the Rafa Benitez song. Second best is the header that Mellor scored the rebound from, while third is helping to stage an almost improbable comeback against Chelsea in the League Cup.

Josemi started off okay, knocked his skull in and then became a liability. Best tackle was grabbing the European Cup before Diao could get his mitts on it. Cheap as, swapped up to Kromkamp who wasn't that bad but just didn't gel and selling him got us Arbeloa.

The rest of his signings, in my opinion, were either fair to excellent or just free transfers who came and went.

Are you happy now?

[SMD]

Inter finished in 6th before he joined, then 7th after he joined. That's not poor, it's just unexciting. Blackburn he did well with to start with, it just all went wrong quite magnificently - but to be fair no-one else has done a particularly good job with them since either. Fulham is a much more relevant comparison - it's not a decade ago for a start - and he had a crap start there too before steadying and doing really quite well. Personally I'd give him the chance to try it at Liverpool too.

Although I do see a very strong argument for making the new owners a completely fresh start. Hiring a proper manager before changing the board, aims, approach etc. was a stupid decision on the part of the Liverpool board.

Except with Inter, he had this squad:

Paul Ince

Nicola Berti

Alessandro Pistone

Gianluca Pagliuca

Jocelyn Angloma

Giuseppe Bergomi

Youri Djorkaeff

Salvatore Fresi

Fabio Galante

Maurizio Ganz

Massimo Paganin

Ciriaco Sforza

Aron Winter

Ivan Zamorano

Javier Zanetti

Hardly shite.

Blackburn he did well but he spent a lot and ended up with a lot of dross in his second season. He's started bad and bought fairly uninspiringly. So...I don't know if I want to trust him with £30m.

[ras el hanout]

SMD, what was Rafa's record at Osasuna, Real Valladolid - Wiki only says "Unsuccessful" He was then relegated with Extremadura, you got the win percentages for that?

Also why is Houllier's reign remembered for Diouf anf Diao and Cheyrou and not the like of Hyypia - the equal of any signing under Benitez, McCallister or Riise.

Interestingly Carragher said he prefered Houllier's management style to Rafa's. That's ignored now though. Doesn't fit in with the view of internet forums.

[ras el hanout]

Lucas is promising and has shown good touches, he just doesn't get any sort of support from Carragher who refuses to pass to him.

Diouf shouldn't have been rid immediately, no, but after 6 months it was starting to look like he wasn't the prolific scorer he was claimed to be.

He was 'successful' for Bolton and Blackburn. His level. And still not a prolific scorer.

Okay, fine, let's go through the flops that Rafa bought. Fuck knows what difference it makes but let's go.

I don't think Aquilani was a flop but he was out injured too much and it was a gamble that backfired. He is quality and is showing that for Juve now.

Robbie Keane. Head too big, brain too small. Tried too hard then just got stroppy. A victim of changing circumstances but we lost £1m (we sold him for £16m up front and a further £3m after Spurs stayed up).

Babel's been forever a 'potential' star but he just doesn't seem to understand football. I think he's thick and he won't put his body in for challenges. We seemed to be in the position to start spending money on potential stars like that but then the owners started sucking the club dry and it just didn't work out. Unless by some miracle we get in a manager who knows how to make him tick, should sell him to Birmingham, West Ham or Galatasaray in January.

Dossena came as part of the plan to change the system with Keane and Degen but sadly it didn't work at all. In hindsight, we should've stuck with the same style and work the squad around that but I can see what the thinking was.

Pennant was another gamble, trying to get a winger in when we couldn't get Simao or Alves. Another thick twat who has blamed everyone but himself for his career going down the pan.

Morientes. Great name, great talent, just couldn't adjust to the pace and power of the game. Always better in Europe than the league, we signed him too late and he had no pre season either.

Paletta, cheap defender, helped us get Insua and is getting better back in Argentina. Might yet make it back in Europe, we'll see.

Mark Gonzalez was expected to be first choice but should've been an understudy. Needed to sell to get the funds to sign better first team players, still he's doing alright for himself now.

Degen, free, injury prone as fuck, a punt that didn't work out.

Nunez' best contribution is being part of the Rafa Benitez song. Second best is the header that Mellor scored the rebound from, while third is helping to stage an almost improbable comeback against Chelsea in the League Cup.

Josemi started off okay, knocked his skull in and then became a liability. Best tackle was grabbing the European Cup before Diao could get his mitts on it. Cheap as, swapped up to Kromkamp who wasn't that bad but just didn't gel and selling him got us Arbeloa.

The rest of his signings, in my opinion, were either fair to excellent or just free transfers who came and went.

Are you happy now?

You're fucking kidding me, you've made an excuse for every single flop. That's really frightening.

[SMD]

I think at those sides he didn't manage for many games. It was right at the beginning of his career. I'll try and dig those out but is it really worth comparing his initial forays into management? I mean, Hodgson's stints with big clubs have come well into his career.

Houllier's reign, for me, comes in two halves - before and after his heart surgery. I loved Houllier and I always thought he'd eventually bring us the title. And if he hadn't had his health problems, who knows? We were close in 2002. But the Houllier we have now is the Houllier of 2002-2004. I always keep it separate because I don't want it to ruin the memories he gave us.

GH is usually brought up as a reason to give a manager a chance but also when to know that their time is up.

I believe his circumstances are unique and not many managers will go through that (I hope!).

GH pre-heart attack signed some cracking players. Heskey (before he lost his spine), Riise, Hamann, Hyypia, Henchoz, Babbel, McAllister, Smicer and Barmby were great but injury prone as hell...it's not all bad. But Houllier after the operation just became paranoid and obsessed with being proved right. Remember him at half time against Marseille going to check if Biscan was outside the box for his red card, rather than going to the dressing room to sort out the team. That was cringe worthy.

Carragher would say that, wouldn't he? Though ironically GH did try to sell him to Villa at one point.

It's not ignored, I don't get what your beef is. You're on a forum, Einstein.