Sport Liverpool Football Club

[dizogg]

Ramone, or RaMOAN as I call him! So apparently the new chairman wants "back to our former glory" or whatever. Can anyone genuinely say they think Roy is the man to do this? Fuck optimism, optimism doesn't get you out of the relegation zone!

"If we win all our games till christmas"... Erm, we won't though, will we? We won't even win half of them.

[SMD]

Wooooah oooh oooh, we had the best midfield in the woooorld...

[BlinkyBear]

Blinkybear. A poster nobody has heard of before suddenly popping up and claiming gerrard was excellent today. How convenient. A lillyam alt?

BlinkyBear.

I never said Gerrard was excellent, merely your best player today, which isn't saying much.

I usually read other football threads and seeing as though you asked a question, thought I'd chip in.

For what it's worth, I tend to agree with some of your main points about Liverpool, but you've obviously decided to play devil's avocado of late.

Still, I called Torres being unfit and clearly not arsed a while back and got roundly set upon by Scousers who claimed otherwise. He was abject again today.

[dizogg]

"of late" lol

[ScouserInExile]

I'm starting to feel a little bit more positive. We've had a fucking awful start to the season, mostly caused by shit going on off the pitch affecting what's gon on on the pitch. I don't expect great thing from this season, given that we have a new managr and new owners, but I can see light at the end of the tunnel. Woy will take a little while to bed in, but I think he can come good for us over the next couple of seasons an we will return to winning ways if and only if, our new owner lets hi spend a bit of cash.

We have such high expctations of our managers, not helped by the fact that Benitez won us the UCL in his first season with us, but does anyone else remember the shit start we had to that season and that campaign? It was only because of some Gerrard heroics that we got out of the group stage at all. Plus we finished fifth that season, which was dreadful at the time - this was obviously all forgotten a week or so later.

We need to give it some time. I don't think we'll win shit this season, but things will pick up...

[ras el hanout]

Ramone, or RaMOAN as I call him! So apparently the new chairman wants "back to our former glory" or whatever. Can anyone genuinely say they think Roy is the man to do this? Fuck optimism, optimism doesn't get you out of the relegation zone!

"If we win all our games till christmas"... Erm, we won't though, will we? We won't even win half of them.

On current form we probably won't, no. So get a new guy in. I'd feel a bit sorry for Roy. I felt a bit sorry for rafa but if you can't do it you can't do it. The reason I said give it till Xmas, well, why not, we're not going to win the league, we're not going to get relegated. He might stlll turn out awesome ( doesn't look like it) but what's the harm. If we haven't shown big improvments by then then get shot.

[dogsout]

Still, I called Torres being unfit and clearly not arsed a while back and got roundly set upon by Scousers who claimed otherwise. He was abject again today.

90% of the problem is the total lack of service. I'm bored of saying this, I really am. How many times was the ball played into his feet near the box? How many times was it played into his feet anywhere? I labelled the service he got last season as 'embarrassing', this season has taken it to a new level. I honestly can't remember seeing a Liverpool side that poses such little attacking threat.

If we do get Pellegrini then at least that should be the end of the dire, negative football. Whether he could get the team winning enough is another matter entirely.

[BlinkyBear]

90% of the problem is the total lack of service. I'm bored of saying this, I really am. How many times was the ball played into his feet near the box? How many times was it played into his feet anywhere? I labelled the service he got last season as 'embarrassing', this season has taken it to a new level. I honestly can't remember seeing a Liverpool side that poses such little attacking threat.

If we do get Pellegrini then at least that should be the end of the dire, negative football. Whether he could get the team winning enough is another matter entirely.

It's true that since Xabi left you've offered stuff all to Torres in the way of service, but he never looks like he's arsed to change the situation by himself. Whilst you can't compare directly, the likes Tevez, Rooney, Villa and plenty of others will drop back, hustle and make the ball come to them, but Torres offers no suggestion that he's bothered to do so. He's capable of winning any game on his own if he gets the opportunity but it's too easy for him to say that it's not his fault that he can't do that as he's no getting the chance to do so, he should be trying to make it happen.

[dogsout]

It's true that since Xabi left you've offered stuff all to Torres in the way of service, but he never looks like he's arsed to change the situation by himself. Whilst you can't compare directly, the likes Tevez, Rooney, Villa and plenty of others will drop back, hustle and make the ball come to them, but Torres offers no suggestion that he's bothered to do so. He's capable of winning any game on his own if he gets the opportunity but it's too easy for him to say that it's not his fault that he can't do that as he's no getting the chance to do so, he should be trying to make it happen.

You've just compared him to three players that all excel when playing between the lines. Torres' game isn't about that; he needs service. The thing is, the service doesn't even have to be great. As we saw countless times under Rafa, all you have to do is get the ball to his feet near the box, and he'll do the rest. But we currently can't even manage that.

[Commander Jameson]

Also, those players mentioned are supported by plenty of midfielders who push past them to offer them options. Our midfield are painfully static and way too far back to support Torres in time.

[Dandy_Sephy]

Carragher was further forward than our entire midfield today

[dogsout]

Also, those players mentioned are supported by plenty of midfielders who push past them to offer them options. Our midfield are painfully static and way too far back to support Torres in time.

Great point. I just think it's madness that he's getting singled out for criticism when the way the team is being set-up/performing is making his job (which is scoring goals, not dropping in to link the play, or acting as a target man) extremely difficult.

[SMD]

I'm starting to feel a little bit more positive. We've had a fucking awful start to the season, mostly caused by shit going on off the pitch affecting what's gon on on the pitch. I don't expect great thing from this season, given that we have a new managr and new owners, but I can see light at the end of the tunnel. Woy will take a little while to bed in, but I think he can come good for us over the next couple of seasons an we will return to winning ways if and only if, our new owner lets hi spend a bit of cash.

We have such high expctations of our managers, not helped by the fact that Benitez won us the UCL in his first season with us, but does anyone else remember the shit start we had to that season and that campaign? It was only because of some Gerrard heroics that we got out of the group stage at all. Plus we finished fifth that season, which was dreadful at the time - this was obviously all forgotten a week or so later.

We need to give it some time. I don't think we'll win shit this season, but things will pick up...

Our start wasn't too bad in 04/05:

League

14/08/2004 	Tottenham Hotspur	Away 	D 	1-1  
21/08/2004 	Manchester City		Home 	W 	2-1 
29/08/2004 	Bolton Wanderers	Away 	L 	0-1 	 	
11/09/2004 	West Bromwich Albion	Home 	W 	3-0 
20/09/2004 	Manchester United	Away 	L 	1-2  
25/09/2004 	Norwich City		Home 	W 	3-0 	
03/10/2004 	Chelsea			Away 	L 	0-1 	 	 
16/10/2004 	Fulham			Away 	W 	4-2 	
23/10/2004 	Charlton Athletic	Home 	W 	2-0 	 
30/10/2004 	Blackburn Rovers	Away 	D 	2-2 	
06/11/2004 	Birmingham City		Home 	L 	0-1 	  
13/11/2004 	Crystal Palace		Home 	W 	3-2 	
20/11/2004 	Middlesbrough		Away 	L 	0-2 	  
28/11/2004 	Arsenal			Home 	W 	2-1 	
04/12/2004 	Aston Villa		Away 	D 	1-1 	 
11/12/2004 	Everton			Away 	L 	0-1 	  
14/12/2004 	Portsmouth		Home 	D 	1-1 	
19/12/2004 	Newcastle United	Home 	W 	3-1 	 
26/12/2004 	West Bromwich Albion	Away 	W 	5-0 	 
28/12/2004 	Southampton		Home 	W 	1-0 	

League Cup

R3 	26/10/2004 	Millwall		Away 	W 	3-0 	 
R4 	10/11/2004 	Middlesbrough		Home 	W 	2-0 	 
R5 	01/12/2004 	Tottenham Hotspur	Away 	D 	1-1

Champions League

Q3 1st Leg 	10/08/2004 	GAK			Away 	W 	2-0 
Q3 2nd Leg 	24/08/2004 	GAK			Home 	L 	0-1 	  
Group Match 1 	15/09/2004 	AS Monaco		Home 	W 	2-0 	 
Group Match 2 	28/09/2004 	Olympiakos		Away 	L 	0-1 	 
Group Match 3 	19/10/2004 	Deportivo La Coruna	Home 	D 	0-0 	  
Group Match 4 	03/11/2004 	Deportivo La Coruna	Away 	W 	1-0 	 
Group Match 5 	23/11/2004 	AS Monaco		Away 	L 	0-1 	  
Group Match 6 	08/12/2004 	Olympiakos		Home 	W 	3-1 	

In the league, we were inconsistent but at least good at home. I remember some decent wins against Norwich, West Brom and Man City. Also came back from 2-0 against Fulham away (irony!).

League Cup with the kiddies saw us do pretty well as well, especially beating a senior Spurs side at White Hart Lane.

As for the CL, we did very well against Monaco at home and two good performances against Deportivo. It was mainly our away form that was crap but still, we weren't bad at Anfield. We definitely weren't relying on Gerrard, as he was in and out with muscle injuries (didn't he miss all of September?)

Alonso and Garcia were definitely wowing us.

We were inconsistent, not dreadful week in week out. But the trade off was that glorious run in Europe. Incidentally, didn't Gerrard score 2 goals all season in the CL? Against Olympiakos and Milan? Hardly relying on him.

[ras el hanout]

You've just compared him to three players that all excel when playing between the lines. Torres' game isn't about that; he needs service. The thing is, the service doesn't even have to be great. As we saw countless times under Rafa, all you have to do is get the ball to his feet near the box, and he'll do the rest. But we currently can't even manage that.

the ball did go near him, it bounced off him a few times and he lost it a couple of times and one time some other fella ran much faster than he did. Perhaps this is why they didn't pass to him much. I don't think anybody's singling him out, he was terrible yesterday but he wasn't alone. Ngog looked more interested in the short time he was on. Actually you're singling torres out to defend him.

[ras el hanout]

Our start wasn't too bad in 04/05:

League

14/08/2004 	Tottenham Hotspur	Away 	D 	1-1  
21/08/2004 	Manchester City		Home 	W 	2-1 
29/08/2004 	Bolton Wanderers	Away 	L 	0-1 	 	
11/09/2004 	West Bromwich Albion	Home 	W 	3-0 
20/09/2004 	Manchester United	Away 	L 	1-2  
25/09/2004 	Norwich City		Home 	W 	3-0 	
03/10/2004 	Chelsea			Away 	L 	0-1 	 	 
16/10/2004 	Fulham			Away 	W 	4-2 	
23/10/2004 	Charlton Athletic	Home 	W 	2-0 	 
30/10/2004 	Blackburn Rovers	Away 	D 	2-2 	
06/11/2004 	Birmingham City		Home 	L 	0-1 	  
13/11/2004 	Crystal Palace		Home 	W 	3-2 	
20/11/2004 	Middlesbrough		Away 	L 	0-2 	  
28/11/2004 	Arsenal			Home 	W 	2-1 	
04/12/2004 	Aston Villa		Away 	D 	1-1 	 
11/12/2004 	Everton			Away 	L 	0-1 	  
14/12/2004 	Portsmouth		Home 	D 	1-1 	
19/12/2004 	Newcastle United	Home 	W 	3-1 	 
26/12/2004 	West Bromwich Albion	Away 	W 	5-0 	 
28/12/2004 	Southampton		Home 	W 	1-0 	

League Cup

R3 	26/10/2004 	Millwall		Away 	W 	3-0 	 
R4 	10/11/2004 	Middlesbrough		Home 	W 	2-0 	 
R5 	01/12/2004 	Tottenham Hotspur	Away 	D 	1-1

Champions League

Q3 1st Leg 	10/08/2004 	GAK			Away 	W 	2-0 
Q3 2nd Leg 	24/08/2004 	GAK			Home 	L 	0-1 	  
Group Match 1 	15/09/2004 	AS Monaco		Home 	W 	2-0 	 
Group Match 2 	28/09/2004 	Olympiakos		Away 	L 	0-1 	 
Group Match 3 	19/10/2004 	Deportivo La Coruna	Home 	D 	0-0 	  
Group Match 4 	03/11/2004 	Deportivo La Coruna	Away 	W 	1-0 	 
Group Match 5 	23/11/2004 	AS Monaco		Away 	L 	0-1 	  
Group Match 6 	08/12/2004 	Olympiakos		Home 	W 	3-1 	

In the league, we were inconsistent but at least good at home. I remember some decent wins against Norwich, West Brom and Man City. Also came back from 2-0 against Fulham away (irony!).

League Cup with the kiddies saw us do pretty well as well, especially beating a senior Spurs side at White Hart Lane.

As for the CL, we did very well against Monaco at home and two good performances against Deportivo. It was mainly our away form that was crap but still, we weren't bad at Anfield. We definitely weren't relying on Gerrard, as he was in and out with muscle injuries (didn't he miss all of September?)

Alonso and Garcia were definitely wowing us.

We were inconsistent, not dreadful week in week out. But the trade off was that glorious run in Europe. Incidentally, didn't Gerrard score 2 goals all season in the CL? Against Olympiakos and Milan? Hardly relying on him.

it was a team that had finished 4th the previous season - that's why we had the glorious European run. You can't blame hodgson for us not being in it this year so he hasn't got that safety net. Did they say yesterday we've won once away in 2010?

[the_debaser]

You need to get MON in. You're pretty much in the same position as Villa were a few seasons ago. A bit of fire and brimstone on the sidelines would be far better than some old dude who only gets het up when there are 10 minutes left.

[Kelthink]

We need someone with a sharp mind and human approach. I'd fucking love if we could convince Hyppia to try his hand at management, I think he'd be a great manager. We need to see the new owners as a fresh slate, so I'd rather us taking our chances with someone who could potentially be the next Guardiola or something. O'Neill would just be a stopgap.

[ras el hanout]

We need someone with a sharp mind and human approach. I'd fucking love if we could convince Hyppia to try his hand at management, I think he'd be a great manager. We need to see the new owners as a fresh slate, so I'd rather us taking our chances with someone who could potentially be the next Guardiola or something. O'Neill would just be a stopgap.

I agree with this.

[Rev]

We need someone with a sharp mind and human approach. I'd fucking love if we could convince Hyppia to try his hand at management, I think he'd be a great manager. We need to see the new owners as a fresh slate, so I'd rather us taking our chances with someone who could potentially be the next Guardiola or something. O'Neill would just be a stopgap.

Guardiola had a good team to start with. He's done a good job, of course, but exactly the same ability joining Liverpool wouldn't end with league titles. It'd end up with finishing 8th or so.

[BlinkyBear]

You've just compared him to three players that all excel when playing between the lines. Torres' game isn't about that; he needs service. The thing is, the service doesn't even have to be great. As we saw countless times under Rafa, all you have to do is get the ball to his feet near the box, and he'll do the rest. But we currently can't even manage that.

That is exactly what I said! He's not the same as those players, but they show what he could at least try to do. He spent all of yesterday hanging around the edges of the penalty box waiting for the ball on a plate, and if he knows it's not coming should working his bollocks off to ensure that he does get the ball. His performance was indicative of the entire team; no one prepared to go that extra yard, always second to the ball and no hunger to turn things around. The only player who looked like they were at least trying to do something was Gerrard, who, by dropping back out of formation (as ever) and going hunting for the ball, at least got involved.

Part of the problem the players seem to have is that everyone is culpable and no one seems hungry enough to sort that out. You would assume that under new owners and for a derby the players would use the opportunity to start fresh and stand up and be counted, but instead were just second best.

[The Fox]

Yeah you don't want Torres dropping deep to forage for possession, sorry. I don't know if you've noticed but he's not Maradona, so I'm not sure what you think he's going to do when he picks the ball up 60 yards from goal.

[dogsout]

the ball did go near him, it bounced off him a few times and he lost it a couple of times and one time some other fella ran much faster than he did. Perhaps this is why they didn't pass to him much. I don't think anybody's singling him out, he was terrible yesterday but he wasn't alone. Ngog looked more interested in the short time he was on. Actually you're singling torres out to defend him.

I'm not just talking about yesterday; I mean this season in general. He has been singled out, and the complete lack of service has been largely ignored. You can add this to the list of stupid things people say about Torres:

- He won't be a success over here

- Rafa should never rest him; he should play every game he's fit

- He's crap at international football

- He's lost his pace/desire since the injury last season

All of the above points to somebody that doesn't understand Torres' game, or how to make him effective. Rafa was the one that signed him, yet he had the whole country telling him he was mismanaging him after he rested him a couple of times, and subbed him off against Birmingham that time. Rafa's the only manager he's ever been prolific under, but it's not because he's a tactical genius that knows the secret to getting the best out of him. It's because he set the team up to complement Torres' abilities. He didn't ask him to link the play or hold the ball up; he told him to play vertically, and he set the team up to press high. He understood that Torres is very dangerous when one of two situations arise: 1) he has space to play in, and 2) he has the ball played into his feet, near the opposition's goal - not fired up to him from the defense, not aimlessly pumped in from the wings, and not played into him from midfield while he's facing his own goal, with little support.

Don't reply to this and make it about Rafa. I have no interest in the Rafa wars that still rage on in here. I am talking only about Torres and the way he has been used.

Yeah you don't want Torres dropping deep to forage for possession, sorry. I don't know if you've noticed but he's not Maradona, so I'm not sure what you think he's going to do when he picks the ball up 60 yards from goal.

Exactly my point. It's not his game. He's more limited than those other guys, of that there can be no doubt. Asking him to do that would be like asking Gerrard to sit back and play like Makelele. He's a specialist, and thus he relies on the midfield to do their job properly so that he can do his.

Hodgson needs a different kind of striker. Torres doesn't suit what Hodgson is trying to do. He wants him to be the point of reference for the rest of the team, but that's just not his game. If other areas of his approach had been showing promise, then perhaps I'd entertain the idea of Roy sticking around for the January window, so that he can buy the target man he so desperately needs. If it looked like he had balanced the rest of the side correctly, I'd even have been all for allowing Torres to move on and using the money to sign a few top class players. But as things stand now? I'm praying for somebody that can bring sexy football and understanding of how to free Torres of his shackles. The guys that are tickling my fancy right now:

Laudrup

Deschamps

Emery

Pellegrini

Kenny

[ras el hanout]

Well I'm afraid, and this is unscientific, i'm in the HE DOESN'T LOOK RIGHT camp. The service might be shit but then the team are playing badly. If the service was good to him then we'd be playing well and there wouldn't be a problem. I don't believe Roy sends his team out with the instructions not to give the ball to Torres. He's playing as badly and with the same lack of confidence as most of the team. The reason it's mentioned is because he's the best striker in the world and our best footballer and the one who really could win us matches when the rest ot the team are terrible.

[SMD]

it was a team that had finished 4th the previous season - that's why we had the glorious European run. You can't blame hodgson for us not being in it this year so he hasn't got that safety net. Did they say yesterday we've won once away in 2010?

I don't blame Hodgson for not being in it. However, being so abysmal against Utrecht is down to him and the players. I'm worried about Napoli away, they might actually hunt us for fun.

Yes, we've won once away in 2010. It's been a shocking year and for the brunt of it to fall on Rafa is mind boggling.

We've got no leadership on the pitch any more. Gerrard and Carragher are both far too concerned with their own personal legacy to direct the team.

It's moot anyway. Hodgson has lost the support of almost every fan on the main Liverpool fan sites as well as the official site. It should be interesting to gauge the mood in and around Anfield.

[ras el hanout]

I don't blame Hodgson for not being in it. However, being so abysmal against Utrecht is down to him and the players. I'm worried about Napoli away, they might actually hunt us for fun.

Yes, we've won once away in 2010. It's been a shocking year and for the brunt of it to fall on Rafa is mind boggling.

We've got no leadership on the pitch any more. Gerrard and Carragher are both far too concerned with their own personal legacy to direct the team.

It's moot anyway. Hodgson has lost the support of almost every fan on the main Liverpool fan sites as well as the official site. It should be interesting to gauge the mood in and around Anfield.

We're terrible in Europe last season - Players fault and owner's fault

We're terrible in one European game this season - Hodgson's and players' fault

No leadership in a team built by Rafa over 6 years and with a quarter of a billion pounds worth of tranfers - Hodgson's fault

I think it's actually pretty funny that all the stuff directed at me over the years "We don't sack managers, do we want to turn into Newcastle and it took Ferguson seven years and it's the owner's which are causing us to play badly on the pitch" has all gone out of the window.

Of course Hodgson's lost the support fo forums, he never had it. If he was going to be a success he'd have to do it instantly. He was never going to be given time. And If he was doing well it'd be all "Ah yeah but it's Rafa's team." The fact that he's doing badly is exactly what a lot of our fans wanted. But the fact is Hodgson hasn't turned it around instantly. It was possible, I reckon and so it seems he's probably not the right man however that doesn't mean the sacking of rafa wasn't the correct thing to do. The new guy might be worse than Hodgson, that doesn't mean the sacking of Hodgson would be wrong.

Now I'm going on about rafa again, but it can't be ignored, a lot of fans didn't want him to go for some reason and they were always going to take it out on his replacement.

What's it been? 8 games?

[ras el hanout]

Let's just hope it's a case of taking a step back to go forwards.

[ras el hanout]

And would RAWK accept anybody who wasn't Rafa? I don't read internet forums. Apart from this one. What are they saying on who should replace Hodgson?

[BlinkyBear]

Yeah you don't want Torres dropping deep to forage for possession, sorry. I don't know if you've noticed but he's not Maradona, so I'm not sure what you think he's going to do when he picks the ball up 60 yards from goal.

Thing is, I'm not offering a solution, it's not my club and couldn't give one if things aren't going well. My point isn't meant to be taken literally-I'm not saying that Torres should drop 60 yards deep and go ball hunting, but he, and the whole team should be doing more than just walking around and waiting for things to happen.

[SMD]

We're terrible in Europe last season - Players fault and owner's fault

We're terrible in one European game this season - Hodgson's and players' fault

No leadership in a team built by Rafa over 6 years and with a quarter of a billion pounds worth of tranfers - Hodgson's fault

I think it's actually pretty funny that all the stuff directed at me over the years "We don't sack managers, do we want to turn into Newcastle and it took Ferguson seven years and it's the owner's which are causing us to play badly on the pitch" has all gone out of the window.

Of course Hodgson's lost the support fo forums, he never had it. If he was going to be a success he'd have to do it instantly. He was never going to be given time. And If he was doing well it'd be all "Ah yeah but it's Rafa's team." The fact that he's doing badly is exactly what a lot of our fans wanted. But the fact is Hodgson hasn't turned it around instantly. It was possible, I reckon and so it seems he's probably not the right man however that doesn't mean the sacking of rafa wasn't the correct thing to do. The new guy might be worse than Hodgson, that doesn't mean the sacking of Hodgson would be wrong.

Now I'm going on about rafa again, but it can't be ignored, a lot of fans didn't want him to go for some reason and they were always going to take it out on his replacement.

What's it been? 8 games?

We got to the Europa League semi final, or did that pass you by? We've pretty much only played well against Bucharest, that was it.

Oh, wait, Ramone's reverted to his previous trollings.

Hodgson did get support, he's pissed it all away. And you're right, we don't sack managers but we've never had one this bad. The last time we had one approaching this level of shite was when we got relegated in the 50s.

Rafa was sacked because 'seventh wasn't good enough'. Hodgson was brought in to 'steady the ship' and 'put an arm around the players'. Well all he's done is steady the Titanic and alienate half the squad.

The names being put forward are (in particular order) Rafa, Kenny, Laudrup (Michael) and Pellegrini. All of whom I would like to see as manager.

[Dandy_Sephy]

There will be few complaints if Kenny is drafted