Sport Liverpool Football Club

[dogsout]

I don't know who we could get in that could do a better job. If he absolutely had to go, and he probably will at the end of this season, unless we put in a sustained challenge and or win the CL, the only managers I'd consider would be Hiddink or Mourinho. Both are masters at instilling belief in their teams which is what we obviously need to take us to that next level. That or massive amounts of money.

I'd just like to clarify that I think he's the best manager we've had since Kenny and one of the best around today. If it comes to March and we're well out of the race again, out of the cups and playing like shite, then it'll be time to start talking about replacements.

[V3zna]

The last time Benitez's successor was mentioned was after we lost to Barnsley. The fact that this is being mentioned again now with us on 7 points out of 9 and in the Champions League proper is mental. Utd, Chelsea and Arsenal do not have maximum points either and interestingly enough Inter, AC Milan, Barcelona and Real Madrid all failed to win at the weekend. I doubt there is much panic by those teams fans.

[lampkin]

The last time Benitez's successor was mentioned was after we lost to Barnsley. The fact that this is being mentioned again now with us on 7 points out of 9 and in the Champions League proper is mental. Utd, Chelsea and Arsenal do not have maximum points either and interestingly enough Inter, AC Milan, Barcelona and Real Madrid all failed to win at the weekend. I doubt there is much panic by those teams fans.

Aye, it's scary indeed that even winning is not enough...I'm amazed that Ramone's using this to back up his claims of how bad Rafa is

I'm baffled, to say the least..

[dizogg]

I reckon we'll play Riera as a centre forward with Torres and Keane supporting him down the flanks against Man Utd.

[ras el hanout]

The last time Benitez's successor was mentioned was after we lost to Barnsley. The fact that this is being mentioned again now with us on 7 points out of 9 and in the Champions League proper is mental. Utd, Chelsea and Arsenal do not have maximum points either and interestingly enough Inter, AC Milan, Barcelona and Real Madrid all failed to win at the weekend. I doubt there is much panic by those teams fans.

You're dillusional. Why are you comparing us to the best teams who regularly challenge for their league title? Compare us teams challenging for 4th.

"When Man U play bad and win it's the sign of champions but not when we do it!", people grumble. I mean you do know why people say this, don't you? It's because Man U usually end up as champions, we do not, so don't get paranoid. When Wigan play bad and win people don't say they're champions either.

Likewise why compare ours to Man U or Chelsea's reults? Man U could finish 7th this season, who knows after three games. All I know is that for the five games we're played so far this season we've been total shit. Luckily the sides we played didn't have Fernando Torres or we'd have been BADLY fucked. And this in this his 5th season, after last season's nightmare, I personally hoped for more.

[dizogg]

You know what Ramone, call me a dreamer, tell me i'm burying my head in the sand or whatever, but I enjoy supporting Liverpool. I'm proud to say that Liverpool fans don't boo their manager or players, they support them no matter what. And when a new manager or player comes in i'll support them too. I don't mind people talking about doubts or disagreeing with things happening in the club, but this thread used to be about Liverpool supporters talking about the team they love. Virtually every single post you make is just slagging off Benitez. Do you think you're a revolutionary or something because your a football fan who thinks the manager is shit? Shouting "YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE DOING" constantly?

We're not a perfect club, theres a lot wrong with us, everyone knows that, but why do you have to drone on and on about it? I might be on my own here but I really wish you'd shut the fuck up about Benitez for a bit. You've been making the same points over and over. What the fuck are we meant to do to shut you up, pretend to agree with you or something?

In conclusion: Please shut the fuck up please thanks.

[Reynard]

....after last season's nightmare, I personally hoped for more.

You could hardly call last season a 'nightmare'

I'm calling the Hyperbole Police.

[glb]

This is exactly what everybody was saying for most of last season. "We're still unbeaten!" "We're missing key players!" it was Agger and Alonso last year. They're back and we're missing different key players. Babel should be fit or not fit. Why is he on the bench if he's not fit? Are we really that bad? And Lucas isn't pretty decent when he plays. He's just very average, he's supposed to be a big Brazilian hope. And then blame soccer pundits with this strange paranoia. They couldn't say anything if we were doing well. Damned if we do and damned if we dont'. I don't think we do. Unless the 'do' you mean is play horrible football. I like your moxie though! Your like a Paul Tomkins who isn't depressed and kidding himself all the time!

It's not paranoia when they're really out to get you

I would add that I don't think ALL pundits are particularly biased, generally we're fairly well covered, there just seems to be a bit of hypocrisy with what we do compared to the others in the 'big four.'

I agree, football hasn't been great so far but I guess I'm, if not blindly optimistic, then of the belief that now is not the time to make snap judgements given that the season is but three weeks old and we're second. No question whatsoever that if we fail to bring any trophies in this season that Raffles will be under almost unbearable pressure next summer and it would be hard to see him staying, but right now he's still in charge and gets my support.

Out of interest Ramone, and I apologise because I'm new here and haven't read the last 400+ pages, but who would you have instead?

[ras el hanout]

It's not paranoia when they're really out to get you

I would add that I don't think ALL pundits are particularly biased, generally we're fairly well covered, there just seems to be a bit of hypocrisy with what we do compared to the others in the 'big four.'

I agree, football hasn't been great so far but I guess I'm, if not blindly optimistic, then of the belief that now is not the time to make snap judgements given that the season is but three weeks old and we're second. No question whatsoever that if we fail to bring any trophies in this season that Raffles will be under almost unbearable pressure next summer and it would be hard to see him staying, but right now he's still in charge and gets my support.

Out of interest Ramone, and I apologise because I'm new here and haven't read the last 400+ pages, but who would you have instead?

Slaven Bilic or Sven or Jose or Roy Keane yeah I know Roy Keane can you even believe that?

[ras el hanout]

You know what Ramone, call me a dreamer, tell me i'm burying my head in the sand or whatever, but I enjoy supporting Liverpool. I'm proud to say that Liverpool fans don't boo their manager or players, they support them no matter what. And when a new manager or player comes in i'll support them too. I don't mind people talking about doubts or disagreeing with things happening in the club, but this thread used to be about Liverpool supporters talking about the team they love. Virtually every single post you make is just slagging off Benitez. Do you think you're a revolutionary or something because your a football fan who thinks the manager is shit? Shouting "YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE DOING" constantly?

We're not a perfect club, theres a lot wrong with us, everyone knows that, but why do you have to drone on and on about it? I might be on my own here but I really wish you'd shut the fuck up about Benitez for a bit. You've been making the same points over and over. What the fuck are we meant to do to shut you up, pretend to agree with you or something?

In conclusion: Please shut the fuck up please thanks.

Voronin was booed not a month ago! Some guy in here was going to kill himself if Yossi played the other day. You were the pillock who made the post about the crap players we had under Houllier compared the ones we have now, so spare me the you'll never walk alone spiel! Hey, did you protest when Houllier got the boot? I reckon you... DID! It's weird though, your anrgy reaction, fingers in your ears going "shut up shut up shut up!" You know full well if what I was saying wasn't true you'd not be bothered. Hell, even Dogsout now accepts we need somebody who can instill belief in the players. He had me on ignore for a year because that's the drum I was beating. And I was knee jerk last year for saying he should go midway through his forth season. And now it's kneejerk and the start of the fifth when nothing seems to have improved! When ain't it gonna be kneejerk? In one hundred years time????

[Reynard]

I do respect your opinion that you personally don't believe that Rafa's the right man for the job.

However, it does come across as if you're trying to drum up support, like it's a campaign or something, or set yourself up for a later date to say, "Ha, I told you so, you fools!" (which is a very easy thing to do).

I also don't like your black-and-white attitude about it; if we don't agree with your views, that we must all be blinkered idiots who idolise the man and won't hear a bad word said about him.

[glb]

Slaven Bilic or Sven or Jose or Roy Keane yeah I know Roy Keane can you even believe that?

Bilic I like a lot, his whole manner for a start but also love the fact he called it straight down the middle after Croatia deservedly eliminated our national showponies last year. Common theme among those men is they are winners, but Rafa is cut from the same cloth.

Keane? Bloody nora, imagine that. It's so perverse I almost like it.

[ras el hanout]

I do respect your opinion that you personally don't believe that Rafa's the right man for the job.

However, it does come across as if you're trying to drum up support, like it's a campaign or something, or set yourself up for a later date to say, "Ha, I told you so, you fools!" (which is a very easy thing to do).

I also don't like your black-and-white attitude about it; if we don't agree with your views, that we must all be blinkered idiots who idolise the man and won't hear a bad word said about him.

I've never insulted any of your views. Go back and read for yourself. I post something and I get people like Dizzog going "You don't know what you're on about" and insults and everything. But I'm strong. And at the end of last season I did say "I told you so, fools, hahaha" It felt pretty good, for a second, and then I remember the turmoil our club was in. BUT! It really is pretty hard to say a bad word about Benitez on here. I still get mostly insults for saying, not that I give a fuck, I'm looking out for a club, not a fictional Spaniard.

[ras el hanout]

Bilic I like a lot, his whole manner for a start but also love the fact he called it straight down the middle after Croatia deservedly eliminated our national showponies last year. Common theme among those men is they are winners, but Rafa is cut from the same cloth.

Keane? Bloody nora, imagine that. It's so perverse I almost like it.

If we'd got Houllier AFTER he'd been in charge of Lyon we'd be going "Oh that Houllier doesn't half play exciting and attacking football." And then say he won the CL in his first season but 5 years later we were still playing horrible football we'd be exactly where we are now. "Houllier's a winner!" we'd say, "that Lyon side of his was awesome. Houllier's a winner."

You know what it is I am saying?

And the reason I go on about it so much is nothing's going to change until he leaves. So I read you guys talking about systems and Yossi Benayoun and I'm thinking "there's an elephant in the friggin' room!! Why can you not see it??" You know, to help you guys. I can see the elephant.

[V3zna]

I respect ramone's opinion and I'm glad he's a dissenting voice as we do need some objectivity at times. There is certainly an amount of Liverpool fans that will not have a bad word spoken about Rafa. But on the other hand there is an even amount that have endless knee jerk reactions to everything negative that happens. I dunno, I guess I'm an old school Liverpool fan and I'll blindly support the man in charge no matter what. When everyone had given up on Houiller I kept a bit of faith and ultimately I was proved wrong but I want to remain as optimistic as possible during Rafa's reign. Does this mean I'll overlook his obvious flaws? Probably but I would rather try and find postives out of everything I can and right now with 7 points out of 9 & a Champions League campaign to look forward to I'm content enough. Even Ramone must realise at some stage this season Liverpool will be firing on all cylinders and be a force to be reckoned with. We all know what formation and players should be first choice. When everything slots into place, even temporarily, we'll see a vastly different style of football. Our problem has been a lack of consistancy but if we can pick up points as wins rather than draws then we'll be in a much better position when we do get into top gear. Some may see this as blind optimism by me but I'd rather look forward to forthcoming matches than approach them with a sense of dread.

[Reynard]

I've never insulted any of your views. Go back and read for yourself. I post something and I get people like Dizzog going "You don't know what you're on about" and insults and everything. But I'm strong. And at the end of last season I did say "I told you so, fools, hahaha" It felt pretty good, for a second, and then I remember the turmoil our club was in. BUT! It really is pretty hard to say a bad word about Benitez on here. I still get mostly insults for saying, not that I give a fuck, I'm looking out for a club, not a fictional Spaniard.

I wouldn't insult you for having an opinion (nor did I say that you insult my views; I don't need to go back and read anything).

I do agree that we are in turmoil off the pitch and I also agree that Benitez sets up his teams to negate the opposition, first-and-foremost.

I certainly don't agree that he's a bad manager or motivator, though, but I might be entertained by suggestions that he can be stubborn.

[ras el hanout]

I respect ramone's opinion and I'm glad he's a dissenting voice as we do need some objectivity at times. There is certainly an amount of Liverpool fans that will not have a bad word spoken about Rafa. But on the other hand there is an even amount that have endless knee jerk reactions to everything negative that happens. I dunno, I guess I'm an old school Liverpool fan and I'll blindly support the man in charge no matter what. When everyone had given up on Houiller I kept a bit of faith and ultimately I was proved wrong but I want to remain as optimistic as possible during Rafa's reign. Does this mean I'll overlook his obvious flaws? Probably but I would rather try and find postives out of everything I can and right now with 7 points out of 9 & a Champions League campaign to look forward to I'm content enough. Even Ramone must realise at some stage this season Liverpool will be firing on all cylinders and be a force to be reckoned with. We all know what formation and players should be first choice. When everything slots into place, even temporarily, we'll see a vastly different style of football. Our problem has been a lack of consistancy but if we can pick up points as wins rather than draws then we'll be in a much better position when we do get into top gear. Some may see this as blind optimism by me but I'd rather look forward to forthcoming matches than approach them with a sense of dread.

You're a better man than me, then. I wish I could be optimistic. I know we can play great. But I see that as a negative that we usually don't rather than a postive we occassionally do.

[Reynard]

We all know what formation and players should be first choice. When everything slots into place, even temporarily, we'll see a vastly different style of football. Our problem has been a lack of consistancy but if we can pick up points as wins rather than draws then we'll be in a much better position when we do get into top gear. Some may see this as blind optimism by me but I'd rather look forward to forthcoming matches than approach them with a sense of dread.

Despite what the media say, we do pretty much know our best team (this image of some crazy guy randomly chopping-and-changing is massively overstated) and we do normally see that team on the pitch. I must admit that Babel not featuring yesterday was strange, but we don't know how fit he is (apparently not very).

I'm also in the consistency camp - I've seen the current team play good too many times to believe that there's any inherent problem with the players not being up to scratch.

What I'd like to see (in this order): Gillett and Hicks to do one (preferably Parry too) - then a year of football, where we don't hear a peep about the ownership/ground/finances and then judge. It cannot be claimed with any sense of realism that what's happening in that area isn't affecting events on the pitch.

[V3zna]

You're a better man than me, then. I wish I could be optimistic. I know we can play great. But I see that as a negative that we usually don't rather than a postive we occassionally do.

Few teams can keep any sort of momenteum going this early in the season although as far as Liverpool are concerned we've not even got going yet. Arsenal where very poor against Fulham, one week later they ripped Newcastle apart. Chelsea started off looking like 1970's Brazil when playing Pompey, they then followed this up with an uninspired win against Wigan and a dull draw with an out of form Spurs. If Liverpool are still playing mediocre football at the business end of the season then you've got it right, Benitez isn't the man for the job but I don't see that happening. Barring some sort of injury crisis we'll go into the home stretch with a bit form. We always do but we are always too far behind to make any sort of dent on the League title run in. Maybe this time we'll be a bit more in touch. Blind optimism again? Perhaps but if this had of been last season I doubt we would have had nothing more than three draws from our opening three fixtures. That's a bit of progress surely? Then again if we lose our next two games then we've got nowhere. But hey, we've had a few bits of bad luck against Man Utd in recent seasons, we're due a result.

[dogsout]

Dogsout now accepts we need somebody who can instill belief in the players.

Not quite. When this all kicked off last year I said I felt that may be what lets Rafa down in the end; that he'd not be able to make them believe and would ultimately lose the dressing room. I'm still far from convinced that has occurred. I just said that if we do end up looking for a replacement, Hiddink and Mourinho would top my list because they are proven motivators (I think they're the two best coaches outside of England).

Also, I've posted this before but for what it's worth, I had given up on Ged at the end of the season before he got the sack.

As usual, I'm in agreement with daveypauly and Vezna. You've both summed up my feelings on this issue very well.

[Reynard]

Also, I've posted this before but for what it's worth, I had given up on Ged at the end of the season before he got the sack.

The end of Ged's time was a lot clearer for me, too - I actually did want him gone and accepted that he had taken us as far as he could.

I don't have that feeling at the moment with Rafa (EDIT: just to add that this opinion hasn't got anything to do with the CL win or subsequent campaigns in that comp).

[ras el hanout]

The end of Ged's time was a lot clearer for me, too - I actually did want him gone and accepted that he had taken us as far as he could.

How could you possibly know that? If they'd sacked Ferguson after six years, well, you know? Eh?

[Reynard]

How could you possibly know that? If they'd sacked Ferguson after six years, well, you know? Eh?

'Eh?'

Y'see, it's that kind of English which may ruffle feathers - I can imagine you wiping away the froth as you furiously type.

We were stale - we were moribund. We had one system and that was screwed if Owen was off-form or injured.

And none of Rafa's big-money signings have been as bad as Ged's (which was a massive nail in his coffin).

In a similar way some say that Rafa's CL success bought him time and blinded some fans, it could be said of Ged's 2001 trophy-a-thon. But even back then, the football was the same.

I didn't 'know' anything other than the strong feeling that we weren't going to progress any further (which may be a similar feeling to the one you currently have regarding Rafa).

The Fergusion thing isn't the same for me anyway - there were other factors with him and Man United and that seven-year period.

[dizogg]

How could you possibly know that? If they'd sacked Ferguson after six years, well, you know? Eh?

Well, exactly. This shit works both ways in a circle forever!

[V3zna]

Despite what the media say, we do pretty much know our best team

That's another point I'd like to mention. I believe that a certain amount of Benitez's loyalty from the fans comes from a siege mentality regarding the media. Maybe I'm blinkered but I honestly believe Rafa is endlessly getting a raw deal from all forms of the British media. All fans believe Andy Gray or whoever has an agenda against their team but I'll not even mention him as it's nothing more than a cliche these days. But, there's obviously a bad history with The Sun (News of the World) and there are numerous high profile journalists that just seem to have chosen Rafa as an ongoing target. Sky Sports Sunday Supplement tv show defies belief at times. I'm all for objectivity when things are going good or bad but some of the illogical rubbish Martin Samuel and Brian Woolnough have spouted would make you think they are local hacks and not head football writers of some big selling papers. It's incessant and irritating and I honestly believe these people had a major part in Mourinho's departure from Chelsea. It feels slightly xenophobic what these people get away with as the foreign managers seem to be targeted more than most. Criticism when it's due is fine but baseless rubbish that gets trotted out regarding rotation etc is tiresome. These people will not stop until Benitez is hounded out of Anfield. I'm not saying support our manager blindly to piss off the idiot journalists off but there are a certain amount of Liverpool fans aware of the raw deal the Spaniard gets. In hindsight the Premier League has been a worse place for entertainment value since the 'get Mourinho out' campaign succeeded.

I hope I'm not coming across as Paul Tomkins Rafa's cheerleader but there are different reasons why the man has some stellar fan support.

[Reynard]

I will happily discuss the team, the manager and the board, etc, and take others opinions on-board.

But one thing no one will ever change my mind on is that there isn't a hell of a lot of resentment and dislike of Rafa in the media - clear as day.

[ras el hanout]

'Eh?'

Y'see, it's that kind of English which may ruffle feathers - I can imagine you wiping away the froth as you furiously type.

We were stale - we were moribund. We had one system and that was screwed if Owen was off-form or injured.

And none of Rafa's big-money signings have been as bad as Ged's (which was a massive nail in his coffin).

In a similar way some say that Rafa's CL success bought him time and blinded some fans, it could be said of Ged's 2001 trophy-a-thon. But even back then, the football was the same.

I didn't 'know' anything other than the strong feeling that we weren't going to progress any further (which may be a similar feeling to the one you currently have regarding Rafa).

The Fergusion thing isn't the same for me anyway - there were other factors with him and Man United and that seven-year period.

Houllier came closer to winning the league than Benitez has. Houllier was the only liverpool manager who spent LESS than Ferguson in the same period. Houllier bought some great players. The only real difference between Houllier and Benitez is that the players loved Houllier.

I think Houllier went at the right time too, btw. And if he was right to go then surely it follows it would have been righter if he went the season earlier?

[ras el hanout]

I will happily discuss the team, the manager and the board, etc, and take others opinions on-board.

But one thing no one will ever change my mind on is that there isn't a hell of a lot of resentment and dislike of Rafa in the media - clear as day.

Why? Why would that exist? How could they say anything without looking ridiculous if it was so clearly false?

[ras el hanout]

I don't like it when opposition fans sing "You fat bastard." I feel sorry for him then.

[glb]

If we'd got Houllier AFTER he'd been in charge of Lyon we'd be going "Oh that Houllier doesn't half play exciting and attacking football." And then say he won the CL in his first season but 5 years later we were still playing horrible football we'd be exactly where we are now. "Houllier's a winner!" we'd say, "that Lyon side of his was awesome. Houllier's a winner."

You know what it is I am saying?

I see your point and maybe we do need someone to come in, make a quick gain and then go from there, but that's not been our culture since Shankly built the Boot Room. Times change of course and maybe we are guilty of living in the past too often but the two most successful managers in the past decade were given time to build. Wenger had won the title within five years, but Slur was closer to the sack than Rafa is before he took United to where they are now. Sure Maureen gave the Decepticons what they wanted but he imploded as quickly as he arrived. I don't want that for my club.

I see Benitez has had time but we were ravaged by year after year of a lack of professionalism before his arrival and are still an utter joke off the pitch so all things considered he's not doing too badly. When he's been able to buy his first choice signings he's given us Torres, Mascherano, Alonso and add Keane to that when he calms down and stops playing like an over-eager puppy, keen to impress his new master.

The man is a winner but has been hindered by the club behaving like losers off the pitch; this summer he wanted Barry, overpriced granted but still arguably the best midfielder outside the top four (bar Arteta imo), but instead has had to to settle for Riera, unproven in England besides a brief spell for a relegation-threatend Citeh.

Benitez has said himself that this is his strongest squad so far (cf man for man to what he inherited) and so this is obviously the make-or-break season for Rafa. What's gone before has at times been as glorious as it has been frustrating but at no time under Benitez have I walked away from a ground as thoroughly dejected as I did when we lost to Portsmouth in the FA Cup in Ged's last season. We have an international break to tweak things and for Rafa and Sammy to get the house in order and then, well what a game to resume things on!

I respect your opinion, and hope you respect mine. Neither of us is right, nor are we wrong. Well, you might be a little bit

On a different note, I don't think we play horrible football all the time, but then name one side that plays this mythical beautiful football week-in, week-out and I'll call you a liar because no such team exists (no not Arsenal, not Barca...okay maybe Brazil circa 1970 but nowadays even Derby would give them a game).