Sport Liverpool Football Club

[Sng]

What about Boro and Sunderland? I think it's pretty unfair to call them poor. I reckon they'll both finish mid-table so that's certainly not poor.

[V3zna]

Grinding out results, when the team plays badly IS what potential champions go through, United have done it numerous times. I just hope it does pick up

Exactly. We may not be good enough to challenge Utd and Chelsea right through to May but a Championship challenge that lasts until after Christmas would be a step forward.

[jacob]

Oh ok, your post was confusing.

Also, jacob, we get it. We know you don't like Benitez. Unfortunatly for you, the majority of Liverpool fans do. So obviously we're all wrong, and you're a football genius, but why not leave us to it? Go win the quad with Liverpool on Football Manager and feel all smug or something. You've made your point but everyone dislikes you. You're like some saddo who keeps butting into a conversation at a party and everyone wishes would fuck off.

So do it!

Well, yeah, I mean, it is very very obvious you're all wrong. What's up with that? I swear, at the end of this season when we're 7th you'll still all have your heads in the sand.

It's like, Benitez started in New York, his goal was to drive to California, you know, doing a Cannonball Run. He started of driving pretty quick and he souped up his car until it was awesome but about a thousand KM out of New York he veered off course and started fucking zigzagging all over the place. We all thought, Hmm, I'm sure he knows what he's doing. He'll get back on track and we started making excuses for him, saying the parts he'd bought for his car weren't very good. Then Benitez started heading for fucking Canada. This is where intelligent people, ie me, saw that it was all fucked. Others were all making excuses but their main thing was that Benitez was halfway across America (heading completely the wrong fucking way though) these people said "Oh, we have to stick with Benitez. We can't start again from New York, Benitez is half way across!" What they seem to ignore is the fact that a decent driver starting in New York would get to California quicker than Benitez.

Now, of course I don't need to post in here but I'm genuinely interested in you particularly. You can't possibly be making any of your assumptions on any football knowledge you have, is it herd mentality or something?

And Man U never play as badly as us. When people say Man U play bad and win they mean Man U don't play as well as they are capable and win. We play fucking TERRIBLY and scrape out a couple of lucky results against poor oppostition and suddenly some Liverpool fans are comparing us to Man U. Most of the time Man U play AWESOMELY unfortunately.

And we have no idea of how good Standard Liege are. Are they good like Marseille at Anfield last year? When they played us off the pitch but were infact a not very good team? Or are the Southampton good, when they played us off the pitch, Pellegrino's debut, and then they got relegated?

Anyway, I feel nothing but pity for you. You hold onto that dream. Rafa WILL do it, he just has to. I'll leave you to your party. Which player you gonna slag off next week?

[Stilly]

What a night. I really expected a great game but this team still has a lot of work to do. Good old Dirk at the end though, eh?

Btw, troll's gone but just for now I guess.

[Nate Dogg III]

And you, is little PinkMoon all cross because your captain wishes with all his heart that he could play for us and you lost to STOKE CITY at the weekend? Nevermind eh, maybe you'll get into UEFA via fairplay or whatever this season. Good luck!

Jesus.

[PinkMoon]

Exactly. We may not be good enough to challenge Utd and Chelsea right through to May but a Championship challenge that lasts until after Christmas would be a step forward.

Agreed. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you're a poor team by any stretch of the imagination; performances can (and presumably will) improve. It's just that I don't think you have the quality or strength in depth to take it all the way to May, and I don't reckon any of you really believe otherwise. We're more or less on the same page, I think.

[Graham S]

Oh ok, your post was confusing.

Also, jacob, we get it. We know you don't like Benitez. Unfortunatly for you, the majority of Liverpool fans do. So obviously we're all wrong, and you're a football genius, but why not leave us to it? Go win the quad with Liverpool on Football Manager and feel all smug or something. You've made your point but everyone dislikes you. You're like some saddo who keeps butting into a conversation at a party and everyone wishes would fuck off.

So do it!

I don't know. I think ramone might prove to have been right in the long run, and he sometimes makes points that are worthy of discussion, even if they lead to argument. Houllier's critics were correct about some important things in retrospect.

I think the jury is out on whether Benitez can ever get us where we ideally want to be. I think he's at least a decent manger, we might not be able to find a better one. Given the ownership situation, a change in manager might lead us into a downward spiral we might find difficult to recover from. Our club's record of giving mangers a good long run in the job is a good thing.

So I'm going to be loyal to Benitez, just like I was to Houllier, until his position becomes clearly untenable and it becomes obvious to everybody a change has to be made. He's more than earned that, after supplying the best moment of my football-watching life. I said to myself when we won the CL that I'd be happy if we didn't win anything for years, and I'm prepared to make good on that if I have to. We're a long way from the point where it's sensible to abandon hope at the moment.

That doesn't make Benitez immune to criticism, but he won't get any from me, because I know he knows a lot more about football than I do. But I like reading an open and honest discussion in here. We can judge for ourselves whether people are making good arguments or not. People shouldn't have to toe a party line.

And when we finally win the Premier League, we can ram it right down ramone's throat, just like we did with the Liverpool fan who hated Benitez in the CL winning season.

[ras el hanout]

I don't know. I think ramone might prove to have been right in the long run, and he sometimes makes points that are worthy of discussion, even if they lead to argument. Houllier's critics were correct about some important things in retrospect.

I think the jury is out on whether Benitez can ever get us where we ideally want to be. I think he's at least a decent manger, we might not be able to find a better one. Given the ownership situation, a change in manager might lead us into a downward spiral we might find difficult to recover from. Our club's record of giving mangers a good long run in the job is a good thing.

So I'm going to be loyal to Benitez, just like I was to Houllier, until his position becomes clearly untenable and it becomes obvious to everybody a change has to be made. He's more than earned that, after supplying the best moment of my football-watching life. I said to myself when we won the CL that I'd be happy if we didn't win anything for years, and I'm prepared to make good on that if I have to. We're a long way from the point where it's sensible to abandon hope at the moment.

That doesn't make Benitez immune to criticism, but he won't get any from me, because I know he knows a lot more about football than I do. But I like reading an open and honest discussion in here. We can judge for ourselves whether people are making good arguments or not. People shouldn't have to toe a party line.

And when we finally win the Premier League, we can ram it right down ramone's throat, just like we did with the Liverpool fan who hated Benitez in the CL winning season.

If we hadn't won that what would you think? I mean, it was Houllier's team and we were kinda lucky.

I was as angry as anybody a couple of years ago when Big Fat Sam said if Benitez hadn't won the CL he'd be long gone. Now I kinda think he had a point. IS all the love for Benitez simply because of that night? It's very romantic if so but it's not going to help us much. I reckon we could get Slaven Bilic, he's only gets £300 a week where he is. He would be a better manager than Benitez, I'd bet my cock on it.

We started last season very well indeed. As far as I can tell nothing at all has changed. We have Robbie Keane instead of Crouch.

And this Riera, did somebody say he was slow but had a great season in Spain? So he's a slow Mark Gonzalez?

And surely nobody disliked Benitez in his first season? Even a visionary like me needed three seasons to see the truth.

Have we improved over the last few seasons?? Playerwise yes, performancewise no.

You have to think abolut players like Kewell. Keane could be the next Kewell, and then we'll say Kewell is shit and Keane is shit and Kuyt is shit and Benayoun is shit. Even though all of these players were better than any Liege player. The Liege players just looked better because they had confidence. Something our lot don't have. Thanks to you know who.

When he goes, you wait and hear what the players say. The you'll be coming up to me and begging for forgiveness. I will grant it, we're all Liverpool fans afterall.

And again, it's interesting that I'm a troll and that because I think Benitez is rubbish. If I was going on about Benayoun nobody would care. The players are fair game, the manager's not. What is up with that??

[dizogg]

I know he's not immune from criticism, but ramone just keep posting the same point repeatedly. We get it. And as you say, who would we get as a replacement? Rafa has been at the least very solid. It's fair enough saying you think Rafa is crap but unless you can think of a proven, available and realistic alternative manager then its all just pointless.

I just get generally annoyed with people who don't even think about what they're saying. Yes we have improved under Benitez (the point totals in the league prove this), but so have the rest of the top four. How can Benitez reach the next level if his financial support is nowhere near Man Utd or Chelsea? Its just logical, if Man Utd and Chelsea were better than us before and they are still spending more money then it stands to reason that we will find it very difficult to match them. I'm sure in ramone's magical world theres a new Super Arsene Wenger waiting round the corner to become our manager, but to me in the real world his comments just seem poorly thought out and aimless. Hasn't Premier League history proved that change for change's sake isn't the way to go? The two most successful managers in the league are also by far the longest serving. Benitez hasn't let us down yet, he's got us the best striker in the world and won us the Champions League, things I thought I might never see in my lifetime!

[ras el hanout]

I know he's not immune from criticism, but ramone just keep posting the same point repeatedly. We get it. And as you say, who would we get as a replacement? Rafa has been at the least very solid. It's fair enough saying you think Rafa is crap but unless you can think of a proven, available and realistic alternative manager then its all just pointless.

I just get generally annoyed with people who don't even think about what they're saying. Yes we have improved under Benitez (the point totals in the league prove this), but so have the rest of the top four. How can Benitez reach the next level if his financial support is nowhere near Man Utd or Chelsea? Its just logical, if Man Utd and Chelsea were better than us before and they are still spending more money then it stands to reason that we will find it very difficult to match them. I'm sure in ramone's magical world theres a new Super Arsene Wenger waiting round the corner to become our manager, but to me in the real world his comments just seem poorly thought out and aimless. Hasn't Premier League history proved that change for change's sake isn't the way to go? The two most successful managers in the league are also by far the longest serving. Benitez hasn't let us down yet, he's got us the best striker in the world and won us the Champions League, things I thought I might never see in my lifetime!

He can't, the only way you can get a group of players to perforn at the height of their ability is if they have total confidence in you. This is Sports 101. This is how we won the CL with Djimi Traore and Igor Biscan in the fucking squad!! You see, we all thought Benitez was the man. So when he said something, the players believed it and played above themselves and it worked.

After 5 years of some poor signings and suspect tactics the players are naturally going to start to think maybe this guy isn't all that. Performance will suffer as the players have no confidence in the manager. Hey, that's what happened!! You can actually see it with your eyes if you watch a game!! The players don't look very happy do they, they don't look very confident. There is no way back from that.

It might sound like a load of old twaddle but I could assemble a good squad of players. Most people could. What makes a great manager is inspiring these players. Rafa can't do it. Just watch a game. Of course with the best striker and best midfielder in the world at the club we'll win a lot of games. That's not enough though, is it. Rafa has spent a lot of money.

Yes, Rafa bought Torres. For that he should be applauded. He bought some good players. Buying them is the easy part.

So, I'll sum it up once again why I think Benitez is poor. It's because a manager's most important quality in inspriing confidence in his team. If you think that the players are all 100% behind Rafa and his tactics and his manner and his player management then, well, fair enough. If you think the players have doubts about him as a Premierhip manager then he is fucked, it's a simple as that.

Now, how about you try and explain why Rafa is a GOOD premiership manager. Do it without using excuses of owners and money and the fact that, surprise surpriuse, other teams have also improved if you can. Do it without mentioning Valencia, an awesome team he inherited.

[ras el hanout]

And do it without slagging off Houllier, a manager who never spent as much as Rafa. A manager who never got 7 years like Ferguson did!

[Guest]

We are winning. Lets see how it goes.

[ras el hanout]

We are winning. Lets see how it goes.

That's the spirit!

[dizogg]

Now, how about you try and explain why Rafa is a GOOD premiership manager.

As Disciple says, how about we're unbeaten so far this season? What more can he do right here, right now? You think there's a manager out there that can just come in and click his fingers and immediatly gain the respect and instill confidence in our whole team? You're thinking about it way too simplistically. I'm concerned with Liverpool being successful, if you can name a manager who can come in and definitly improve our team i'd take you more seriously. But it's no good just getting rid of him and replacing him with anybody. If he left, I wouldn't be surprised if a few players went with him. I think the team has got confidence in him in general, but people are complex. Its not just as black and white as you try and paint it.

Lets put it to rest, you think Benitez is a poor manager, I think he's pretty good. We won't change anything by discussing it here so lets forget it! He's staying for now, so you'll have to grin and bare it for a bit.

[Graham S]

If we hadn't won that what would you think? I mean, it was Houllier's team and we were kinda lucky.

Dunno. The CL win changes everything for me emotionally, even though I realise rationally that things could have been very different.

And surely nobody disliked Benitez in his first season? Even a visionary like me needed three seasons to see the truth.

Can't remember who it was now, but one of our regular posters used to think Rafa was a right clown in his first season.

When he goes, you wait and hear what the players say. The you'll be coming up to me and begging for forgiveness.

After 5 years of some poor signings and suspect tactics the players are naturally going to start to think maybe this guy isn't all that. Performance will suffer as the players have no confidence in the manager. Hey, that's what happened!! You can actually see it with your eyes if you watch a game!! The players don't look very happy do they, they don't look very confident. There is no way back from that.

And that's the real point. I loved Houllier like some sort of favourite uncle. But once he's gone, and you read the player's autobiographies, it's clear that by the end he'd lost the respact of the players, and the ability to make positive changes. It was time for him to go.

As I'm an outsider looking in, I've no idea what the current situation in the club is with Rafa. I hope it isn't the way you fear. In a few years time we'll be able to look back and see who was right.

[Graham S]

As Disciple says, how about we're unbeaten so far this season?

Ah come on. It's hard to use our current level of performance as an indicator that everything's fine. From what I've seen we've been dreadful, but thankfully we've won anyway.

[Stig]

You think there's a manager out there that can just come in and click his fingers and immediatly gain the respect and instill confidence in our whole team?

Jose Mourinho

I'm a bit 50/50 with Rafa at the moment, last season I was fully behind him when Hick\Gillet were thinking about getting rid, but after the form we've had over the last 3 games (regardless of winning) there clearly isn't something right. It may not even be all Rafas fault it could also be a coaching staff problem, who's to say. But we do need are some proper wingers who don't spend 80% of there time in field or in the box. Kuyt may have scored the goal for us last night but apart form that, he's been shocking in all 3 games, he is NOT a right winger. Why not stick Babel on the right? instead of making him always have to cut back on the side to cross, I'm sure he'd do much better than Kuyt.

[ras el hanout]

As Disciple says, how about we're unbeaten so far this season? What more can he do right here, right now? You think there's a manager out there that can just come in and click his fingers and immediatly gain the respect and instill confidence in our whole team? You're thinking about it way too simplistically. I'm concerned with Liverpool being successful, if you can name a manager who can come in and definitly improve our team i'd take you more seriously. But it's no good just getting rid of him and replacing him with anybody. If he left, I wouldn't be surprised if a few players went with him. I think the team has got confidence in him in general, but people are complex. Its not just as black and white as you try and paint it.

Lets put it to rest, you think Benitez is a poor manager, I think he's pretty good. We won't change anything by discussing it here so lets forget it! He's staying for now, so you'll have to grin and bare it for a bit.

Can you read? He had the respect. He's lost the respect over the following years of poor results and bizarre team selections. So please not not not read correctly and then accuse me of think about it way too simplistically. I'd say it takes a few months to get the teams behind you, and it did, and we won the CL. You can not get respect, lose respect and get it back. You get it and keep it for as long as you can. When it's gone it's gone.

But I explained many times why I think he's poor. You've said " Well I think he's pretty good and who could we replace him with!!??" It's the cannonball run all over again. How can I argue with that!!

Anyway, I said Slaven Bilic.

My second choice would be Mourinho.

My third choice would be Sven.

But yeah, I didn't post to insult you so for you to say "We won't agree so forget it!" is a bit rich. I don't care if you agree. But don't accuse me of posting crap when the best you can do it "Well, I think he's good." Capeech?

[ras el hanout]

Jose Mourinho

I'm a bit 50/50 with Rafa at the moment, last season I was fully behind him when Hick\Gillet were thinking about getting rid, but after the form we've had over the last 3 games (regardless of winning) there clearly isn't something right. It may not even be all Rafas fault it could also be a coaching staff problem, who's to say. But we do need are some proper wingers who don't spend 80% of there time in field or in the box. Kuyt may have scored the goal for us last night but apart form that, he's been shocking in all 3 games, he is NOT a right winger. Why not stick Babel on the right? instead of making him always have to cut back on the side to cross, I'm sure he'd do much better than Kuyt.

If it's the coaching staff then it's Rafa's fault. If it's the players then it's Rafa's fault. If it's the owners then it isn't Rafa's fault. It's not the owners though. Last year it was the turmoil behind the scenes. Towards the end of the season when the turmoil was at its peak we hit top form. So how could it have been that?

[Graham S]

Gerrard's having a groin op, missing the England games and

Gerrard's recovery period means he will also miss Liverpool's visit to Aston Villa in the Premier League on Sunday and, given the additional recovery time required, Manchester United's visit to Anfield on September 13.

[Commander Jameson]

If it's the coaching staff then it's Rafa's fault. If it's the players then it's Rafa's fault. If it's the owners then it isn't Rafa's fault. It's not the owners though. Last year it was the turmoil behind the scenes. Towards the end of the season when the turmoil was at its peak we hit top form. So how could it have been that?

Didn't have anything to do with us getting Skrtel in and being able to play 4-2-3-1 with a higher defensive line?

Do you think Benitez is poor as in a 2/10 or poor as in "not as good as XXX"?

How did you feel when we were playing well in the 2nd half of last season ("top form")?

[dizogg]

Can you read? He had the respect. He's lost the respect over the following years of poor results and bizarre team selections. So please not not not read correctly and then accuse me of think about it way too simplistically. I'd say it takes a few months to get the teams behind you, and it did, and we won the CL. You can not get respect, lose respect and get it back. You get it and keep it for as long as you can. When it's gone it's gone.

But I explained many times why I think he's poor. You've said " Well I think he's pretty good and who could we replace him with!!??" It's the cannonball run all over again. How can I argue with that!!

Anyway, I said Slaven Bilic.

My second choice would be Mourinho.

My third choice would be Sven.

But yeah, I didn't post to insult you so for you to say "We won't agree so forget it!" is a bit rich. I don't care if you agree. But don't accuse me of posting crap when the best you can do it "Well, I think he's good." Capeech?

I said you were being too simplistic for the exact thing that you are taking about. Respect is not a switch that just goes on and off, suddenly changing the whole squad's happy faces into sad faces. It's just your opinion that the players have lost his respect, I disagree. Do you see any of our top players putting in transfer requests, being audibly unhappy and the like? You know, like at Man Utd, Chelsea, Spurs and Villa? You say that we don't mind having a go at the players but not the manager, but you now seem to be putting everything on the manager. If all it took to make a good team was a special inspirational manager who could give everyone confidence then why would everyone in football be spending many millions on players? I'd say some of players really haven't been performing, the manager can't be held responsible for everything. Yet, we've still won. Man Utd played shit at the start of last season and lost some, and we all know what happened after that. Hell they've dropped points already this season. Let's see what's happening in January, then we can have a proper talk about it.

I just don't think it's realistic to judge Benitez directly against a manager like Ferguson for example, whos had 20yrs and pretty much any player he wanted to build his team. I genuinely think we'd be better off keeping Benitez for at least another 5 years or so, rather than joining in the managerial musical chairs bullshit with the rest of the Prem.

[ras el hanout]

Didn't have anything to do with us getting Skrtel in and being able to play 4-2-3-1 with a higher defensive line?

Do you think Benitez is poor as in a 2/10 or poor as in "not as good as XXX"?

How did you feel when we were playing well in the 2nd half of last season ("top form")?

I honestly think that the rumours were true and senior players said to Rafa WTF M8 and Rafa stopped fucking around and results improved as everybody knew they could. And as I said at the time that will only hold for so long. It's papering over the cracks, something Rafa has been doing for the last few years rather than building. My point was people used the ownership issue as an excuse for poor performances for long periods of last season, and yet when we hit top form the ownership crisis was at its peak. How does that work then? I actually think, IN THE PREMIERSHIP, Benitez is poor. I think most premiership managers, given the money he has been given, would be at least where we are. There are a few managers who would do a lot better though, I think.

[dogsout]

Didn't have anything to do with us getting Skrtel in and being able to play 4-2-3-1 with a higher defensive line?

o/\0

Exactly. Also, the speculation from the media was at its peak but it was actually a far more stable environment because the owners had: a ) Said Rafa's job was safe; b ) Stopped talking to the media.

[ras el hanout]

I said you were being too simplistic for the exact thing that you are taking about. Respect is not a switch that just goes on and off, suddenly changing the whole squad's happy faces into sad faces. It's just your opinion that the players have lost his respect, I disagree. Do you see any of our top players putting in transfer requests, being audibly unhappy and the like? You know, like at Man Utd, Chelsea, Spurs and Villa? You say that we don't mind having a go at the players but not the manager, but you now seem to be putting everything on the manager. If all it took to make a good team was a special inspirational manager who could give everyone confidence then why would everyone in football be spending many millions on players? I'd say some of players really haven't been performing, the manager can't be held responsible for everything. Yet, we've still won. Man Utd played shit at the start of last season and lost some, and we all know what happened after that. Hell they've dropped points already this season. Let's see what's happening in January, then we can have a proper talk about it.

I just don't think it's realistic to judge Benitez directly against a manager like Ferguson for example, whos had 20yrs and pretty much any player he wanted to build his team. I genuinely think we'd be better off keeping Benitez for at least another 5 years or so, rather than joining in the managerial musical chairs bullshit with the rest of the Prem.

Every player who has voiced any real or reported criticism of Benitez has been shipped out. It's notable the support Gerrard DIDN'T give Benitez when he was getting a hard time last year.

The players love Liverpool and the fans. They're not going to go to Man U or Chelsea so the only way is down. That's why the lack of transfer requests although Crouch wanted to go.

Once again, we have the players. The players are not the probelm, I don't think. That's why I'm putting everything on Benitez, he's the weak link. I believe we have the strongest squad in the Premiership. I believe with a good manager we would be challenging. I believe we have a poor manager. As for waiting until January, well, I'm not actually in a position to fire Rafa. But I would have done it last January, why would another year make a difference or god forbid 5 more??

And the other reason I bang on about Rafa is because quite frankly the majority of fans who supported Rafa to such a degree last year have really fucked Liverpool. Rafa can't be sacked now. So when you see a performance like last night and what we've seen over the last few weeks and years do not moan. Do not post "This is shit!" Because it's pretty much your fault we're subjected to it.

[Reynard]

November last year was when the dip started.

It was the "I am just focusing on training my team" time, when rumour/speculation in the media was rife.

[ras el hanout]

November last year was when the dip started.

It was the "I am just focusing on training my team" time, when rumour/speculation in the media was rife.

Good point but it's not actually true, the dip started September/October. We were drawing against rubbish teams from all over the land. November's results weren't bad. It was because we weren't losing and we were just drawing that people could trot out the "We're undefeated ffs!" as the other teams vanished into the distance. We wouldn't have been unbeaten had the ref against Everton not been retarded. Around October last year people started saying same old same old, and they were correct. Then the Americans got caught trying to get rid of Rafa and that was trotted out as an excuse, Until we started playing well at the end of the season.

[Commander Jameson]

November last year was when the dip started.

It was the "I am just focusing on training my team" time, when rumour/speculation in the media was rife.

I think the dip started earlier at the first international break, when we lost Agger for the season. The Nov period was the lowest point though (that defeat by Reading and the subsequent pressure for the CL game).

[Commander Jameson]

Good point but it's not actually true, the dip started September/October. We were drawing against rubbish teams from all over the land. November's results weren't bad. It was because we weren't losing and we were just drawing that people could trot out the "We're undefeated ffs!" as the other teams vanished into the distance. We wouldn't have been unbeaten had the ref against Everton not been retarded. Around October last year people started saying same old same old, and they were correct. Then the Americans got caught trying to get rid of Rafa and that was trotted out as an excuse, Until we started playing well at the end of the season.

So Benitez can get us to play well then?

[ras el hanout]

So Benitez can get us to play well then?

Well if you read what I've said in the last couple posts I think that, as the rumour went, senior players told Rafa to stop fucking around and he stopped fucking around and due to the very high quality of the squad we started playing better. So in answer to your question - No. I think Rafa can get a squad of great players to play amazingly badly. I mean, it can't actually be easy to do. To strip top players of so much confidence they end up as figures of ridicule like Dirk Kuyt, the prolific Dutch striker.