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[dogsout]

Exactly. Rafa's got class. It's rare for him to focus on referees after the game, he usually doesn't like to say too much about referees and focuses on the team. All managers complain about decisions, but Rafa does it far less than his rivals.

As for Bennett, I don't accept that for one second. He's a terrible referee and he regularly makes dreadful decisions in big games. But I'd rather not say anymore on the subject than that as that game was ages ago, and although it's frustrating to see players getting away with dissent, it's hardly surprising. There's also the small matter of Chelsea away in the second leg of a Champions League Semi-Final.

[SPE]

Umm. I think you'll find that Ferguson comes across as a whinger and a bad sport too. Just a more effective one.

Of course, but everyone should know the reason he's making his claims about bad referring or bias. Team building (them against us) and putting pressure on refs. Can you imagine refs being swayed by Curbs' or Bruce's endless post-match moaning? Their constant whining simply comes across like a grumpy bad losers, rather than playing mind games. I'm astounded when people get sucked in and take offence at what Ferguson says. The fact that he's successfully been able to use this tactic for the last 20 something years says more about the stupidity of the media and FA than about anything else.

[David Kenny]

Exactly. Rafa's got class. It's rare for him to focus on referees after the game, he usually doesn't like to say too much about referees and focuses on the team. All managers complain about decisions, but Rafa does it far less than his rivals.

As for Bennett, I don't accept that for one second. He's a terrible referee and he regularly makes dreadful decisions in big games. But I'd rather not say anymore on the subject than that as that game was ages ago, and although it's frustrating to see players getting away with dissent, it's hardly surprising. There's also the small matter of Chelsea away in the second leg of a Champions League Semi-Final.

I think Rafa's one of the worst culprits, at least as bad as the others you've mentioned. I know he's doing it to deflect criticism from his players, which any good manager would try and do, but in every game that doesn't go their way he blames the officials.

Just to pick a recent example, look at his reaction to the first leg of the semi-finals. In fact he was complaining about this referee before the game even started!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2008/ap...ague.liverpool3

[ras el hanout]

England internationals are definitely treated more leniently by the officials than Johnny Wop-Face is.

Even in the commentating. Gerrard will "make the most of minimal contact" when falling in the area whereas Diego Paella-Breath will "Go down like a dying swan" and "we don't want to see that in our game."

Basically racism.

[dogsout]

I think Rafa's one of the worst culprits, at least as bad as the others you've mentioned. I know he's doing it to deflect criticism from his players, which any good manager would try and do, but in every game that doesn't go their way he blames the officials.

That's not the case at all. I can remember us losing and drawing game after game throughout our bad patch in the Champions League and the league this season, and not once did he blame the officials. He kept saying that he's disappointed but the team is working hard. When he does speak about a decision going against us he usually touches on it then moves on and focuses on the team's performance. That's nothing like what we've seen from Wenger and Ferguson/Quiroz of late. They've actually insinuated that there is a conspiracy against them.

Just to pick a recent example, look at his reaction to the first leg of the semi-finals. In fact he was complaining about this referee before the game even started!

I can't say I recall him saying anything about the referee before the game. Got a source for that?

How much of his post match interview was focused on the ref? Very little. Instead he spent most of his time reflecting on our performance and saying we must be disappointed.

The only times I recall him complaining about a referee this season were:

1-1 Chelsea, Konrad Plautz

0-3 Man United, Steve Bennett

1-1 Chelsea, Rob Styles

All three of those referees are shite and on all three occasions I thought their performances were poor, laughably bad in Styles' case. He has said he wants a strong referee in the build up to the second leg, and has had a bit of a go at Drogba. I'd say that falls into the 'using the media to your advantage' category, so I accept he's no angel, but he's nowhere near the level you suggest.

[dogsout]

England internationals are definitely treated more leniently by the officials than Johnny Wop-Face is.

Even in the commentating. Gerrard will "make the most of minimal contact" when falling in the area whereas Diego Paella-Breath will "Go down like a dying swan" and "we don't want to see that in our game."

Basically racism.

Sad but true.

Drogba is probably the worst offender in the league now, though. Did you see him (accidentally) stove Vidic's face in, then start his usual back arch to felled tree dive, only to realise Vidic was hurt before committing to it and subsequently abort the dive?

[David Kenny]

That's not the case at all. I can remember us losing and drawing game after game throughout our bad patch in the Champions League and the league this season, and not once did he blame the officials. He kept saying that he's disappointed but the team is working hard. When he does speak about a decision going against us he usually touches on it then moves on and focuses on the team's performance. That's nothing like what we've seen from Wenger and Ferguson/Quiroz of late. They've actually insinuated that there is a conspiracy against them.

I can't say I recall him saying anything about the referee before the game. Got a source for that?

How much of his post match interview was focused on the ref? Very little. Instead he spent most of his time reflecting on our performance and saying we must be disappointed.

The only times I recall him complaining about a referee this season were:

1-1 Chelsea, Konrad Plautz

0-3 Man United, Steve Bennett

1-1 Chelsea, Rob Styles

All three of those referees are shite and on all three occasions I thought their performances were poor, laughably bad in Styles' case. He has said he wants a strong referee in the build up to the second leg, and has had a bit of a go at Drogba. I'd say that falls into the 'using the media to your advantage' category, so I accept he's no angel, but he's nowhere near the level you suggest.

Sorry I completely ballsed up my hyperlink there. I meant to link to this. Dur!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2008/ap...ague.liverpool3

He's not quite as insane as Ferguson and Quieroz I'll give you that, in that he doesn't accuse them outright of cheating. But I remember him complaining about the ref after other games than the ones you mentioned, West Ham away if I recall he was unhappy with the refs performance. I've got a lot of time for Benitez but he's no saint compared to Wenger and Ferguson.

[Nate Dogg III]

Drogba is probably the worst offender in the league now, though. Did you see him (accidentally) stove Vidic's face in, then start his usual back arch to felled tree dive, only to realise Vidic was hurt before committing to it and subsequently abort the dive?

Yup, thought that was awful of him, even by his lofty standards. The guy's becoming a bit of a joke now and I can't wait for him to go to be honest - with him and Lampard out of the team we play much nicer stuff.

[dogsout]

Sorry I completely ballsed up my hyperlink there. I meant to link to this. Dur!

<a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2008/apr/23/championsleague.liverpool3" target="_blank">http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2008/ap...ague.liverpool3</a>

He's not quite as insane as Ferguson and Quieroz I'll give you that, in that he doesn't accuse them outright of cheating. But I remember him complaining about the ref after other games than the ones you mentioned, West Ham away if I recall he was unhappy with the refs performance. I've got a lot of time for Benitez but he's no saint compared to Wenger and Ferguson.

I don't know, I've just read that and I still don't see how that's remotely close to approaching the conspiracy theories we've heard from the other managers I've mentioned. I watched that interview and he spent very little time talking about the referee. I remember the West Ham game well (it hurt) and I don't remember him talking about the ref. I recall him focusing on the team and saying he thought we played well and deserved to win. That was in a game when we were denied a penalty, only for Carra to bring Ljunberg down in the fifth minute of the allotted three for injury time.

Edit: Of course, there is a chance my memory of that game has been skewed by time or bias but a quick google of the game has provided no quotes from Rafa regarding the referee.

I guess we should agree to disagree.

[dogsout]

Yup, thought that was awful of him, even by his lofty standards. The guy's becoming a bit of a joke now and I can't wait for him to go to be honest - with him and Lampard out of the team we play much nicer stuff.

You can see why he does it, though; it's just so effective. There were plenty of occasions in the first leg where we had you under a bit of pressure and he completely relieved it by going down when the ball was cleared up to him. He's clever with it, which makes it that much more frustrating when he's playing against your team.

Speaking of you playing better stuff in the absence of Lampard, I'm a shade worried by the return of Essien. He's quality, I think he was the difference for you at the weekend. Hopefully he'll be deployed at right back.

[Chewylegs]

You'll be fine in Walkabout. Just dont go left on your way out towards Union Street. Stick to the path, theres trouble in them there hills etc.

Yeah, Plymouth is a little dodgy but I've not had trouble there myself. I've walked left out of Walkabout as well....after the Inter match. I was dying for some food so had to get to the closest (I think) fast food place.

The first time I actually went down there with work I ended up in 'Flares' and my mate and I witnessed someone getting glassed within about 5 mins of walking through the door. It was a TUESDAY night as well!

[David Kenny]

I don't know, I've just read that and I still don't see how that's remotely close to approaching the conspiracy theories we've heard from the other managers I've mentioned. I watched that interview and he spent very little time talking about the referee. I remember the West Ham game well (it hurt) and I don't remember him talking about the ref. I recall him focusing on the team and saying he thought we played well and deserved to win. That was in a game when we were denied a penalty, only for Carra to bring Ljunberg down in the fifth minute of the allotted three for injury time.

Edit: Of course, there is a chance my memory of that game has been skewed by time or bias but a quick google of the game has provided no quotes from Rafa regarding the referee.

I guess we should agree to disagree.

Yeah that was the game, he definitely mentioned the penalty that wasn't given as the deciding factor. Although I can't find the quote either, but the match report on the Guardian website mentions it in passing.

I agree with you that he's not as extreme in the nature of his criticism as Man Utd's pair. But there are managers in the league who almost never complain about the ref, Benitez is not one of them.

It's funny because I think Liverpool prove the adage that these things even out over the course of a season. The penalty given against them when Chelsea were at Anfield and the one that wasn't given against Everton being good a example.

As you say perhaps we'll just have to agree to disagree. Although I might come back to you on Thursday depending on what happens!

[Chewylegs]

In response to people saying Benitez is up there with Wenger and Ferguson with moaning........I've never ever heard him come out with something like this before...

Alex Ferguson after Chelsea game

First of all, if a game is going to be decided on penalty kicks, then we've got no chance on the last few weeks," Ferguson told Sky Sports News.

"Starting at Middlesbrough, the Middlesbrough player dives and saves the ball from Ronaldo six yards away from the referee Mike Riley - a clear penalty and we don't get it.

"Then Rooney is through (also at Boro) and the linesman - the same one as today - flags offside when he is five yards onside. Glen Turner is the linesman and today he has given a penalty kick in a major game like that.

"The ball was going to Rio (Ferdinand) anyway. The boy has not lifted his hands above his body. It hit his hand, I accept that, but to give that kind of decision in a major game like that, and minutes earlier Ronaldo was manacled by the throat by Ballack at a corner kick and Carrick is brought down from a cut-back.

"If the game is going to be decided, and if we are going to lose the league because of penalty kicks, we may as well quit now. It's a major blow to us that, a ridiculous decision.

"I think it's a disgraceful decision to get a penalty kick against you in a major game like that on the linesman's say-so."

The bit about the linesman is a disgrace. They are there to help the referee. A lot of them are referees themselves and he reckons its a disgrace for the linesman to say it was a penalty?WTF?

[rjpageuk]

Yup, thought that was awful of him, even by his lofty standards. The guy's becoming a bit of a joke now and I can't wait for him to go to be honest - with him and Lampard out of the team we play much nicer stuff.

Really? Everytime I see Chelsea they look lost without Drogba. He is such a good outlet and probably the best striker in the world on his day.

Your resurgance seems to have come about just as Drogba has come back from injury hasnt it?

Despite his theatrics yesterday he was still the one creating the goal for Ballack and looking the most dangerous.

I do think he is gone at the end of the season though and I think you will find him completely unreplaceable and will be a lesser team for it next season.

[rjpageuk]

The bit about the linesman is a disgrace. They are there to help the referee. A lot of them are referees themselves and he reckons its a disgrace for the linesman to say it was a penalty?WTF?

It was also a pretty much identical decision to the penalty they got against Arsenal a week or so back wasnt it?

Someone smashed a ball which hit the defender on the arm.

[Nate Dogg III]

Really? Everytime I see Chelsea they look lost without Drogba. He is such a good outlet and probably the best striker in the world on his day.

Your resurgance seems to have come about just as Drogba has come back from injury hasnt it?

Despite his theatrics yesterday he was still the one creating the goal for Ballack and looking the most dangerous.

I do think he is gone at the end of the season though and I think you will find him completely unreplaceable and will be a lesser team for it next season.

Agree to a point but 'his day' seems to be coming less and less. I think it says a terrible amount about the modern game that someone of his size who falls over and feigns injury and scores, what is it, nine goals or something in the Premiership, can be regarded as the best in the world. Yes it's brutally effective but I assure you, as annoying as it is to see your team struggle to cope it's even more annoying when he's on your team.

I'm sure I don't need to remind anyone in this thread of that goal last season when he took a long ball on his chest with his back to goal, turned Carragher and lashed a shot in from 30 yards. That was brilliant. He's clearly capable of some stunning stuff so to see him resort to the shite he's been doing all season long now (when fit) is infuriating.

I don't think you can ascribe our resurgence to his return from injury as one of our best spells of the season was when he was in Africa, and also because there have been so many others out with injuries over the course of the season that it's hard to point to one person in particular and claim they've made the difference.

He's definitely off at the end of the season and if you'd have said that to me last year, after the season he'd had, I'd have been devastated. Right now £20m for a walking, talking, diving, crying living brick wall looks like a good bit of business.

[dogsout]

Right now £20m for a walking, talking, diving, crying living brick wall looks like a good bit of business.

[bowser123]

It was also a pretty much identical decision to the penalty they got against Arsenal a week or so back wasnt it?

Someone smashed a ball which hit the defender on the arm.

Na, I saw them different.

The Arse one was nearer and potentially gave Gallas less time to react, but he clearly moves his arm and makes a shape that's intended to stop the play. He curls his arm in a C shape of such, he knows what he's doing.

Carricks hands were down and didn't make a defined motion like Gallas did. That said, he was much further back and had years to ensure he didn't make contact with his hand. I don't think it was as deliberate, but given the distance I thought he had enough time to position himself so that to ensure there definitely wasn't any.

Both pens for me, though he is half right about Carrick.

What is strange about the Boro comments is he was very praiseworthy of Boro and barely said a thing about the ref after that game. Similar thing last week against Blackburn, we had a blatant penalty not given but he glossed over it, didn't make a big thing of it like Chelsea. He was also very magnanimous after Arse, too.

Thing has been when he's lost it, both physically and literally the game, like Pompey and Chelsea, he's really lost it. He had some valid points both cases but went way, way too far.

[rjpageuk]

It does seem to be pot luck whether you get a penalty or not for a ball being blasted at a defender and hitting him in the arm.

I can see your point with the Gallas one, but Carrick did raise his forward which is why the ball hit them (very similar to the one you got against Barcelona in that the arms moved in the natural place to perform whatever action is occurring and the ball just him them).

I dont really know where I stand on the issue really, on the one hand you cannot have people gaining an advantage through it hitting them on the arm (e.g. stopping a goal by it randomly smashing the arm of a player) but on the other hand it is a bit silly penalties being given out time and time again when it is blatantly not deliberate.

Right now £20m for a walking, talking, diving, crying living brick wall looks like a good bit of business.

from me too. It does look like he is being a disruptive influence on the team so maybe you will be better off without him.

[DeNeo]

I'd consider playing Pennant on the left instead of Babel from the start, though. I think it wouldn't be a bad idea to start Pennant or Benayoun instead and bring him on in the second half when Chelsea begin to tire.

Definitely. Not Benayoun though, he's been so inconsistent the past few games - going from the sublime to the non-entity. Pennant and Kuyt to start, with super-sub Babel coming on later. Though obviously I hope he doesn't have to

[ras el hanout]

And to the people who claim Ferguson never gets stick for 'rotating' his players, you perhaps want to read the papers.

As for tomorrow, the possibility of seeing Chelsea players celebrating is something my brain can entertain.

[Graham S]

As for tomorrow, the possibility of seeing Chelsea players celebrating is something my brain can entertain.

At least it's not Mourinho. Just imagine the horror. When Chief Inspector Dreyfuss just had a big smile at the end of the match last week, there was even a tiny part of me that was pleased for him. I haven't started to hate him yet. I'm sure that will change in time.

[Kelthink]

At least it's not Mourinho. Just imagine the horror. When Chief Inspector Dreyfuss just had a big smile at the end of the match last week, there was even a tiny part of me that was pleased for him. I haven't started to hate him yet. I'm sure that will change in time.

It's deceptive, isn't it? I'm sure a lot of Libpool fans have sympathy for Count Grantula due to the media sticking their knives in at every point, and I know it won't feel as bad as if it were Mourinho but I'm sure we'd be all 'OH SHIT' the morning after if we got knocked out. Curse his mind games.

[AbZorba]

Anyone know if there's any truth in this:

Liverpool target Amantino Mancini could move to Anfield for a cut-price £4million this summer.

The Brazilian winger is set to turn down a new deal at Roma - and could buy out the remaining year of his contract under new FIFA rules.

Roma would then be owed £4m in compensation but that would be a big loss for a player valued at about £10m.

Reds boss Rafael Benitez saw a bid for Mancini, 27, rebuffed by Roma last summer but he is likely to have more luck this time.

"I am coming out of an unlucky spell and I need to feel important again," said Mancini. "I won't speak about my contract until the end of the season."

Link

[V3zna]

Anyone know if there's any truth in this:

Link

He's been linked before to be fair but as it's The Mirror it's probably a pile of lies. I thought he was 29/30 and not 27 as well? Would he be an improvement on Pennant? That wouldn't be hard but I'm not sure he would cope with the physical side of English football. He did start off as a right back though and fits Benitez's template of versatile players.

[Nate Dogg III]

AFAIK only one player so far has invoked the law, some lad in the SPL or something. And there's a gentleman's agreement between the big clubs not to do it to each other - which is why Milan have been quoted £40m for Ronaldinho when they could buy out his contract for less than half that.

I think if it starts it just shifts the balance of power even further towards the player, clubs will have to start pinning players down to seven year contracts on astronomical wages and clubs will struggle to cope.

I also don't understand how it could work legally because it's only the player himself that can buy out his contract, not another club - so Mancini would presumably stump up £4m himself and then get a £4m signing on fee from Liverpool, but I dunno, that's a bit shady - like the rumours of Rafa trying to get Crystal Palace to buy Heinze last year.

So to answer your question, no, I can't see it happening.

[V3zna]

AFAIK only one player so far has invoked the law, some lad in the SPL or something. And there's a gentleman's agreement between the big clubs not to do it to each other - which is why Milan have been quoted £40m for Ronaldinho when they could buy out his contract for less than half that.

I think if it starts it just shifts the balance of power even further towards the player, clubs will have to start pinning players down to seven year contracts on astronomical wages and clubs will struggle to cope.

I also don't understand how it could work legally because it's only the player himself that can buy out his contract, not another club - so Mancini would presumably stump up £4m himself and then get a £4m signing on fee from Liverpool, but I dunno, that's a bit shady - like the rumours of Rafa trying to get Crystal Palace to buy Heinze last year.

So to answer your question, no, I can't see it happening.

That player was Andy Webster I think.

One club will sooner rather than later benefit from this new law and from then on it will snowball. You wouldn't blame AC Milan taking advantage if they are genuinely being quoted £40 million for a lazy Brazilian. The majority of football clubs really do need to get a grip in regard to appropriate transfer fees. The money quoted for young British talent in our lower leagues is ridiculous.

[bowser123]

It's like MAD though, that Mutually Assured Destruction thing.

Nobody has invoked it yet (well bar Wigan's test with that Scottish guy) and I think it's because they know the second they open that door and nick a player, their own players will be off down the road sharpish.

I think most clubs will keep to not invoking the stupid rule because they're scared, but part of me fears Madrid will be their usual stupid, greedy self and go, "Fuck it and the consequences, we want Ronaldo" and then the whole shebang will go to hell, multi million pound players leaving for a fraction at the drop of a hat.

[Graham S]

"Rafa Benítez is obsessed with details," Torres added. "He calculates everything, including runs and flights of the ball, and studies it on his computer. And if he tells you to stand five feet from the penalty spot, it's not in your best interests to be six feet from it. He'll show you that the extra distance makes the difference between a goal and a missed chance - and it has worked for me. He has great powers of seduction and he makes crazy demands on us. At the end of training, when we are all tired, he can still make us repeat routines 20 or 30 times.

[Kelthink]

Crikey, if Torres can make a man gay, what the hell can Rafa do? A new...thing? Woah