Sport Liverpool Football Club

[ras el hanout]

we looked on course to lose no matter how many men we had on the pitch.

I don't know about that!

Hey, here's something, you know the free kick Alonso took when Torres was booked. Was he trying to hit the ref or what?

[Kelthink]

Were you similarly furious at the sendings off suffered by Inter in the last round of Champions League matches? I can't imagine your mouth was quite so afroth.

We got carded for fuck all in the last match, that match was blighted by a card-happy ref.

[Guest]

Whatever happened - Liverpool lost.

You can moan about Masch, but he need not have put himself in that position. Thing is, as mentioned, consistency. Ferdinand moaning at the ref trying to get Torres sent off later in the game?

Nasy piece of work that Ferdinand, as mentioned on the radio - he wanted to be England captain...well I guess if he follows John Terry

Gerrard decided to disappear again. For all his interviews about "I do my captainy-type talking with my play" he showed that he was a pretty crap captain vs the big rivals. Shame, cos he can pull it out when he wants to, and I feel he's been much better the last 3 years or so.

Again Radio 5 mentioned Rafas record against Man U. I believe he's never won or scored a goal against them? Shocking. Won't win the league like that my friend.

[Guest]

Goodness. Just checked the Man U thread and they seem to be going "WHAT A GOAL" from Nani.

Unmarked, inside the box, time to finish - if he hadn't scored he'd have been a spacker.

Worse still it looked like the CBs half gave up right there. Don't jump in and try to block will you!

A poor day, another poor day. It's disappointing but not unexpected. Did anyone else think we'd keep up a run of form? I really didn't. It's doubly annoying because at the moment it seems very much like numb acceptance to me. "Yeah, so we were rubbish again. Yeah, so we expected that."

[Gabzy]

Unmarked, inside the box, time to finish

Wrong, wrong, and yes because he created the time and space himself to finish. Besides, it wasn't so much the (excellent) finish we were all praising but the whole move, particularly Rooney's pass.

[Guest]

Wrong, wrong, and yes because he created the time and space himself to finish. Besides, it wasn't so much the (excellent) finish we were all praising but the whole move, particularly Rooney's pass.

He was unmarked because no one was following him. Rather the defence were swanning about like idiots. The guy who was marking him then ball-followed to Rooney after Nani's initial pass, leaving him without a marker. By the time the ball was returned to him he was nice and clear to be able to knock it where anyone with a brain would have. I'm only going from youtube/the other video as linked. This is what happened, it's right there on t'internet.

Also it certainly LOOKED like the ball was inside the box when he struck it. 18 yards out regardless, right.

The defence were just being spacky, obviously shell shocked from the previous goal. Look at them, not making a challenge, half heartedly jogging around, playing crap. Pretty pathetic if you ask me.

From what I heard it could have been more if it hadn't been for Reina, who of course had a shocker flapping about like he was a post-35 year old David James.

So. Yes, yes, yes.

[Nate Dogg III]

They were (heavily) debatable dismissals, for certain. However, you can see why they might be given depending on how the ref saw it. No reasonable person can see why Mascherano cannot question a ref while Rio, Wayne et al can tell them to fuck off all game long without a single reprimand.

I don't see much difference between your appraisal of the Inter sendings off and mine of Mascherano's. It's just perspective isn't it? As Vezna's already said Liverpool have seen the benefit of it as much as anyone else, you just don't have a problem with those, like I don't have a problem with a Drogba handball before scoring going unpunished or Robben falling over after a slap from Reina.

Horrible though it feels to actually recommend someone read the Sun they show each of the six separate incidents of Mascherano haranguing the ref - he may not have sworn at him when he was actually getting the second yellow but he did a couple of times previous. Six times in 43 minutes, after the week the press have had...he was stupid. Most managers would have taken him off around the forty minute mark or at least had a stern word as it was obvious to most of us he had a death wish.

There is a wider issue with big teams getting favourable decisions, especially at home, and with managers being able to exert so much pressure on referees in general - I remember Mourinho practically demanding Collina for the second leg against Barca in 2005 after Frisk's one-sidedness in the first leg, and he got his wish - but to say it's all corruption and brown envelopes is taking it too far. I remember Vialli in a studio somewhere after the corruption in Italy and he said 'we all knew there was something going on, but we had no idea it was this big' - I wonder if any Premiership players feel there is genuine corruption in the game? I doubt it personally - certainly there's all kinds of shady goings on with agents in the transfer market, but actually dictating the outcomes of games through refereeing decisions? I just can't see it.

[ckny]

Disciple, you're such a 'tard

Do you not realise that the defense only looked like they were swanning around due to the movement of both Rooney and Nani? Pass, Move, Pass, Move... we were Arsenal in disguise! (but with an end product).

Pass and move it's the Liverpool groove.

[Kelthink]

There is a wider issue with big teams getting favourable decisions, especially at home, and with managers being able to exert so much pressure on referees in general - I remember Mourinho practically demanding Collina for the second leg against Barca in 2005 after Frisk's one-sidedness in the first leg, and he got his wish - but to say it's all corruption and brown envelopes is taking it too far. I remember Vialli in a studio somewhere after the corruption in Italy and he said 'we all knew there was something going on, but we had no idea it was this big' - I wonder if any Premiership players feel there is genuine corruption in the game? I doubt it personally - certainly there's all kinds of shady goings on with agents in the transfer market, but actually dictating the outcomes of games through refereeing decisions? I just can't see it.

A team would always be likely to get decisions going their way at the home ground because (I'm making a bit of an assumption here) the ref 'uses' the crowd for bad fouls and such. Which is probably why the home team is allowed to get away with kicking the opposition a bit more than the other way. The mancs were able to win by a good margin on Sunday because they played the system correctly, and our lot fell into the traps set. Oh, and Reina fucked it big time.

[Chewylegs]

Steve Bennett annoyed Premier League kingpin Alex Ferguson a few years ago. Yesterday's match, conveniently enough, was his first game there for three years, despite him being one of the more high profile Premiership referees the entire time. He knew he had to be on his best behaviour to avoid being banned by the boss for another lengthy period of time.

- 3 years?! That's a strange coincidence if ever I've seen one! I'm quite shocked by that.

[Chewylegs]

People thinking the richest league with the most money spinning club in the world has no chance of being corrupt, despite plenty of anecdotal evidence to the contrary. :lol:

Naivety is a beautiful thing though. But honestly, no one can say that there is definitely corruption. But I honestly believe that there are indications that something is seriously amiss, as I do not believe that it is possible to be a professional and be as routinely incompetent as a lot of these men are. And if it exists in Italy, who is to say that it cannot exist elsewhere? That is just blinkered and arrogant.

As I said, we shall see if Steve Bennett has to wait another three years before he goes back to Old Trafford.

Even though I think Warszawa is going a bit OTT and no doubt due to the result on sunday, it is silly to not even entertain the idea that corruption could be in the premiership (especially by the richest clubs), when it was so rife in Italy. Football is big big business and people will always find ways to 'sway' the results in their favour.

[Chewylegs]

Ok, firstly I think we didn't deserve to win on sunday. Personally the formation that has done us so well over the last few weeks came unstuck against United. Torres was far too isolated for the whole match. Babel played reasonable, unfortunately Kuyt, Gerrard and Carragher were all non existent. I was surprised to see Aurelio playing and Skrtel. I thought we would go with the more defensive Riise and Hyypia (the latter being our best defender all year). Personally even though Reina was flapping for the first; Skrtel didn't even bother to jump for the first and the second no one was near Ronaldo. Both bad defensive mistakes. The third goal in my eyes was a brilliantly put together move.

As for Mascherano. The main problem I have is the consistency factor. The ref in my eyes was wrong to send him off but seeming what has happened over the last week Mascherano was a fool to keep speaking to him. Even though he was screeching at the ref before the second yellow you can't send a guy off for just asking what the hell was going on. His manner was not aggressive at all and he didn't swear. The consistency factor is that he should have gone on to book a number of players (for both sides) throughout the game but stopped. You have to continue with the same discipline for players throughout the game but Bennett didn't bother. Why?

I do believe that players should not be able to harrass and surround the referee in football and it should be much more like Rugby in that respect. However, I can't see why chatting or joking with the ref shoudn't be allowed as you will here many players/referees say its all part of the fun. Its a sorry state of affairs if players can't even ask the ref about things that are happening in the game. So, in my opinion a rule should be made that harrassing and surrounding the ref is an offence. This should be done straight away and properly adhered to. I'm fed up however of seeing the media hyping things up and thus affecting what happens in the following weekends football. We've already seen high challenges forgotten about and now its disrespecting the referee. After the international games that will be forgotten and we will move on to something else that the media has blown up over! Its pathetic.

As for our season. I think we will still finish 4th and beat Everton this weekend. I'm upset we didn't look better against Man U but I think refereeing decisions and tactics for the day didn't serve us well. Its not the end of the world as some Liverpool fans will have you believe and in this season we can still achieve success through the Champions League.

[Nate Dogg III]

As for our season. I think we will still finish 4th and beat Everton this weekend. I'm upset we didn't look better against Man U but I think refereeing decisions and tactics for the day didn't serve us well. Its not the end of the world as some Liverpool fans will have you believe and in this season we can still achieve success through the Champions League.

Fair appraisal but are you not concerned at another league season passing with little or no improvement?

I thought Benitez got it wrong on Sunday. I don't watch Liverpool if I can possibly avoid it obviously but when I have seen you recently with Torres up top on his own it's worked quite well. But it obviously requires your wingers to get up and support first and foremost, and once they have it then Gerrard and Alonso can push up to try and get on the end of a cross. So you need quick wingers who can put in a decent ball. Babel was a decent choice - though he didn't play well - but as far as I can tell Dirk Kuyt is a striker with no pace and a poor final ball. I presume Benitez chose him for his work rate but the work rate is only going to stop the opposition playing their game - it doesn't necessarily help when you do have the ball.

Also, I think a lot of managers would have either called Mascherano over for a strong word or just taken him off - it was so, so obvious to anyone watching what he was getting himself into.

Finally, I remember after Avram Grant's first game in charge against Man Utd he was accused by the Guardian podcast of 'settling for the 1-0 loss' and I think this could reasonably apply to Benitez, not only because there are parallels with us having Mikel sent off but also because of his substitutions - Benayoun for the underperforming Babel was entirely reasonable but, 3-0 down or not, taking off Torres for John Arne Bleedin Riise - that's terrible. Didn't this Liverpool side turn over a 3-0 deficit in just over ten minutes a few years ago in a far bigger game than this? Just sends a terrible message - forget it lads, it's over. If Grant had done that we'd all be calling for his head.

[Commander Jameson]

...taking off Torres for John Arne Bleedin Riise - that's terrible. Didn't this Liverpool side turn over a 3-0 deficit in just over ten minutes a few years ago in a far bigger game than this? Just sends a terrible message - forget it lads, it's over. If Grant had done that we'd all be calling for his head.

Torres had taken a number of kicks to his ankles and was hobbling, so Benitez took him off for his own protection (seeing as the ref wasn't doing that).

[Nate Dogg III]

Ahh, fair enough I suppose. Did you have no-one more suitable on the bench though? No Crouchigol?

[Commander Jameson]

Crouch was probably an option, but with 10 men, 3-0 down and, what, 10 mins to go, there's not much use. Our midfield were playing very poorly, so Crouch was either not going to get decent service or not have anyone to lay the ball off to. I think he'll be off in the summer anyway.

[Guest]

Disciple, you're such a 'tard

Do you not realise that the defense only looked like they were swanning around due to the movement of both Rooney and Nani? Pass, Move, Pass, Move... we were Arsenal in disguise! (but with an end product).

Obviously you don't know much about football, i.e. basic marking etc.

It's interesting that you want to play like Arsenal too.

[phresh]

Ok, firstly I think we didn't deserve to win on sunday. Personally the formation that has done us so well over the last few weeks came unstuck against United.

No wonder Ferguson was smiling in pre-match interviews after seeing that team sheet. Ferdinand and Vidic have been excellent at coping with one man upfront and with Babel the only dangerous wide man they could mark him more heavily.

As for Mascherano. The main problem I have is the consistency factor. The ref in my eyes was wrong to send him off but seeming what has happened over the last week Mascherano was a fool to keep speaking to him. Even though he was screeching at the ref before the second yellow you can't send a guy off for just asking what the hell was going on.

Why is every single Liverpool fan ignoring the previous 4 or 5 times he was shouting at, and swearing at, the ref?

As for our season. I think we will still finish 4th and beat Everton this weekend. I'm upset we didn't look better against Man U but I think refereeing decisions and tactics for the day didn't serve us well. Its not the end of the world as some Liverpool fans will have you believe and in this season we can still achieve success through the Champions League.

Taking into account you could easily (and rightly) have been down to 10 men in the first 5 minutes I wouldn't complain about the refereeing too much! The way Arsenal are going it wouldn't surprise me if you managed to snatch 3rd.

As for corruption I really don't agree that it happens here. Italy is just a wholly corrupt country, football or not. If anything was suspicious the media would be over it over like a bad rash. Players, managers or fans may be able to influence certain decisions or the way a referee officiates a match but not in any kind of 'corrupt' way.

[Nate Dogg III]

Obviously you don't know much about football

OH HE DIDN'T

[Chewylegs]

Why is every single Liverpool fan ignoring the previous 4 or 5 times he was shouting at, and swearing at, the ref?

Taking into account you could easily (and rightly) have been down to 10 men in the first 5 minutes I wouldn't complain about the refereeing too much! The way Arsenal are going it wouldn't surprise me if you managed to snatch 3rd.

Uhhhhhh, I'm not. You are right he was shouting and swearing at the ref before but he was shown the red when he was being completely placid and just asking "why did Torres get booked". He still should have shut the fuck up though!

Also, WHY DID TORRES GET BOOKED?

When could we have been down to 10men in the first 5 mins? I don't remember that! Also, i think i can complain about the refereeing when it is so inconsistent. Its not even inconsitency over a number of matches it was in one match every 5 minutes depending on what colour you were wearing mostly.

[bowser123]

As for Mascherano. The main problem I have is the consistency factor. The ref in my eyes was wrong to send him off but seeming what has happened over the last week Mascherano was a fool to keep speaking to him. Even though he was screeching at the ref before the second yellow you can't send a guy off for just asking what the hell was going on. His manner was not aggressive at all and he didn't swear. The consistency factor is that he should have gone on to book a number of players (for both sides) throughout the game but stopped. You have to continue with the same discipline for players throughout the game but Bennett didn't bother. Why?

Your entire post is a bed of inconsistencies. On one hand you want respect for refs, yet don't think he deserved to be sent off. You say Utd deserved to win (actually, no, you didn't, couldn't bare to say it, eh... you said Scouse didn't deserve to win) then bitterly close with it was half the refs fault you got nowt. I wonder what what would have happened had the bent ref awarded a penalty and a red to Carragher like he should have in the third minute.... 4-0 Utd, Hyypia red ring bells?

He didn't book the guy for his first, second, third, fourth or fifth bout of mouthing off. It was his sixth lot, after the ref told him to keep quiet on numerous occasions. He wasn't sent off for asking why, he was sent off for constantly mouthing it off, the idiot. In the same week there's been a crusade against this sort of thing.

He was sent off for constantly badgering the ref and was lucky not to go (according to what you think is out of order) after he repeatedly told the ref to fuck off, or for insinuating the linesman needs glasses or maybe for aggressively wagging his finger in the refs face.

You have to continue with the same discipline for players throughout the game but Bennett didn't bother.

Surely he was consistent. Masch wasn't booked initially, he had numerous warnings... you telling me any other player moaned as much and as loudly as he did, with as many warnings to stop? Hell, the fucker even put his finger to his lip to tell the daft bastard to shut it.

[David Kenny]

Uhhhhhh, I'm not. You are right he was shouting and swearing at the ref before but he was shown the red when he was being completely placid and just asking "why did Torres get booked". He still should have shut the fuck up though!

Also, WHY DID TORRES GET BOOKED?

When could we have been down to 10men in the first 5 mins? I don't remember that! Also, i think i can complain about the refereeing when it is so inconsistent. Its not even inconsitency over a number of matches it was in one match every 5 minutes depending on what colour you were wearing mostly.

I think he's referring to Carragher fouling Rooney when he was through on goal in the first few minutes. Rooney was maybe too honest and stayed on his feet so nothing was given.

[Nate Dogg III]

Carragher's like Liverpool's Carvalho - somehow gets away with all these penalties. You think it'll catch up with him one day but it never does.

[Chewylegs]

Your entire post is a bed of inconsistencies. On one hand you want respect for refs, yet don't think he deserved to be sent off. You say Utd deserved to win (actually, no, you didn't, couldn't bare to say it, eh... you said Scouse didn't deserve to win) then bitterly close with it was half the refs fault you got nowt. I wonder what what would have happened had the bent ref awarded a penalty and a red to Carragher like he should have in the third minute.... 4-0 Utd, Hyypia red ring bells?

He didn't book the guy for his first, second, third, fourth or fifth bout of mouthing off. It was his sixth lot, after the ref told him to keep quiet on numerous occasions. He wasn't sent off for asking why, he was sent off for constantly mouthing it off, the idiot. In the same week there's been a crusade against this sort of thing.

He was sent off for constantly badgering the ref and was lucky not to go (according to what you think is out of order) after he repeatedly told the ref to fuck off, or for insinuating the linesman needs glasses or maybe for aggressively wagging his finger in the refs face.

You have to continue with the same discipline for players throughout the game but Bennett didn't bother.

Surely he was consistent. Masch wasn't booked initially, he had numerous warnings... you telling me any other player moaned as much and as loudly as he did, with as many warnings to stop? Hell, the fucker even put his finger to his lip to tell the daft bastard to shut it.

I absolutely loath people like you who purposely read more in to things than are there. You've done it before when you have decided to walk into this thread. I said he didn't deserve to be sent off because WHEN he was sent off he was 'talking to him'. He wasn't 'mouthing off' as you put it at the time of the sending off. I also want respect for refs throughout the game not just because it suits the media to pick it up in this one week of events brought on Ashley Cole being completely disrespectful to a ref.

Fuck off about the 'deserved' to win bullshit too. I'm in a Liverpool thread so I was saying we didn't deserve to win. Whats wrong with that? Get a grip. I personally don't think you played very well anyway.

I didn't 'bitterly close' shit. I said i thought tactics and refereeing didn't help us. Whether if the ref was better we'd still lose who knows, but there is nothing 'bitter' in me saying that. Yet again you are reading far too much into it. Who knows what would have happened if you had a penalty and it was a red card. I'm not entirely convinced that it was either anyway (but i'm sure thats me just being blinkered). What would have happened if a free kick would have been given for the handball Ronaldo commited in the build up to your first goal? Fuck knows but you can't live on 'what ifs'. Rafa messed his tactics up for this game IMO and that helped in the result going your way.

Mascherano was a fool, thats quite obvious but his supposed 6th lot of mouthing off wasn't mouthing off. Torres mouthed off what, once? Or was it just him saying he was fed up of getting kicked to shit.....who knows.

Yes he was consistent with one player, Mascherano. He wasn't consistent with the rest of the players on the pitch. He booked some players for moaning once and others not even booked for moaning time and time again. For example and I'm purposely using a Liverpool player here so you won't pull out the 'bitter' card; Gerrard. Second half he was absolutely ranting at the ref and he never even got a telling off. Great consistency there.

[dogsout]

Carragher's like Liverpool's Carvalho - somehow gets away with all these penalties. You think it'll catch up with him one day but it never does.

It has, though. He's given away about three penalties this season.

Surely he was consistent.

He wasn't. Torres was immediately booked for having the audacity to complain at the complete lack of protection he was afforded. Ferdinand, Anderson and Gerrard got away with shouting and swearing at the ref on more than one occasion. Gerrard actually told Bennett he was "fucking biased" and "taking the piss" but went unpunished. United were the better team on the day and they deserved the three points. However, that doesn't automatically make Bennett's performance acceptable or correct.

[bowser123]

Mascherano was a fool, thats quite obvious but his supposed 6th lot of mouthing off wasn't mouthing off. Torres mouthed off what, once? Or was it just him saying he was fed up of getting kicked to shit.....who knows.

You'll probably get upset again as I'm presuming, but I take it by the use of the word supposed you don't think it was 6 times? I've read this:

Here is Mascherano’s timetable of doom.

10 MINS: DESPITE a blatant late tackle on United star Paul Scholes, Mascherano can clearly be seen screaming “F*** off, f*** off”. Bennett issues him with a yellow card. The correct decision.

11 MINS: SMARTING over the booking, the Argie can again be seen saying “F*** off, f*** off” prompting Bennett to respond by putting his finger to his lips and telling the star to be quiet.

15 MINS: MASCHERANO then calls for Bennett to book Anderson for an innocuous trip on Steven Gerrard by pulling an imaginary card from his pocket. He is beginning to tread very thin ice and pushing his luck.

23 MINS: NOW the Argie star gives away a free-kick for taking out Ryan Giggs by the touchline. But then he looks towards the linesman and points to his eyes — as if to suggest: You need glasses.

36 MINS: IN Bennett’s face again, whingeing and complaining even though Liverpool are given a free-kick.

38 MINS: COMPLAINS despite his foul on Ronaldo and five minutes later is sent off as he disputes Torres caution.

Now you've probably not seen this article, as I was linked to it and it came from a paper you probably don't read. I'll also infuriate you again and presume you didn't see MotD on the Sunday? He definitely did what's recorded there.

You're either misunderstanding what's happened or are being deliberately obtuse. He wasn't booked for the second time for going over, it was the culmination of every time he did it. Watch it back, what does the ref say just before he shows the second... something like go away, be quiet I think. Yet he carried on. Why exactly did he feel the need to run over anyway?

Yes he was consistent with one player, Mascherano. He wasn't consistent with the rest of the players on the pitch. He booked some players for moaning once and others not even booked for moaning time and time again.

Torres was immediately booked for having the audacity to complain at the complete lack of protection he was afforded. Ferdinand, Anderson and Gerrard got away with shouting and swearing at the ref on more than one occasion.

I take it you mean Torres in the first quote? It's hard to say for certain as nowhere has a conclusive answer, least of all Sky on the day. What I've read and seen on Youtube (the video has subsequently been pulled) is he was yellowed for making a yapping gesture with his hand at the ref. Petty as fuck, but that sort of gesture is petulant and bookable under the current climate. Google "Torres yellow card yapping gesture", there's more than enough links which suggest he was booked for this, not talk.

Again it's hard to say, but Ferdinand was booked for dissent rather than the tackle, FYI. The BEEB think that's the case BTW.

Gerrard actually told Bennett he was "fucking biased" and "taking the piss" but went unpunished. United were the better team on the day and they deserved the three points. However, that doesn't automatically make Bennett's performance acceptable or correct.

I wasn't aware of this. I was probably shouting obscene things at the TV when he was moaning. I saw him talking, just wasn't aware exactly what was said.

He should be pulled up over it, mind. He could be aswell theoretically, be interesting to see if he is.

I also don't buy Torres was kicked to fuck, but that's for another day. My take is the knocks and scans are a smoksecreen so he can avoid the pointless friendlies midweek. The bent ref could have sent Torres off BTW, his tackle on Vidic was much more explicit and worse than anything he took on the day. His substitution wasn't long after this tackle too- was the manager worried he may get himself sent off?

[dogsout]

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on most of that, bowser. We obviously saw things very differently. The same goes for the article you've quoted. I'm not disputing that Masch was asking for it before the sending off, but I do feel Bennett's officiating was key in that. I was getting more and more wound up by Bennett's treatment of our players but I'm used to that; he's up there with Mike Riley and Rob Styles on my list of referees that raise my blood pressure to dangerously high levels.

I was far from happy with the treatment Torres received in both games against you this year. Cynical, snidey fouls, often before the ball had even reached him were the order of the day(s) it seemed. I'm not making excuses, as I believe you looked the better side before the sending off as well as after it, but it has left me frustrated.

Maybe Rafa should make a big deal about the need for protection and strong referees in the build up to games like this. I actually think that one of the things holding our domestic form back is that we're not ruthless enough. If we added a bit of the mob mentality to our game that would see us routinely harassing referees, pressuring linesmen and basically carrying on like Chelsea in their Mourinho driven prime, I'm sure we'd do much better than we do, domestically at least. I actually think our mentality works in our favour in Europe and is one of the reasons we tend to do better in the CL than the PL.

[Chewylegs]

You'll probably get upset again as I'm presuming, but I take it by the use of the word supposed you don't think it was 6 times? I've read this:

Now you've probably not seen this article, as I was linked to it and it came from a paper you probably don't read. I'll also infuriate you again and presume you didn't see MotD on the Sunday? He definitely did what's recorded there.

No, I was taking your view of 6 times as 'supposed' because I wasn't sure whether it as 5, 6 or 7. What's with the patronising tone as well?

You're either misunderstanding what's happened or are being deliberately obtuse. He wasn't booked for the second time for going over, it was the culmination of every time he did it. Watch it back, what does the ref say just before he shows the second... something like go away, be quiet I think. Yet he carried on. Why exactly did he feel the need to run over anyway?

I still think the way he was talking to the ref as he received his second yellow showed that he had calmed down and was just asking what was going on. Like I said though I still think he was stupid to go over there.

The bent ref could have sent Torres off BTW, his tackle on Vidic was much more explicit and worse than anything he took on the day. His substitution wasn't long after this tackle too- was the manager worried he may get himself sent off?

Give it up on the bent ref bullshit! I don't agree that tackle was a sending off.

[ras el hanout]

I don't think that Man U were nailed on to win until Mascherano was sent off. Mascherano deserved to be sent off. I thought he was going to get sent off about 2 seconds after his first yellow. If it were Rooney I'd certainly have been screaming for him to have been sent off. I reckon the assistant ref probably radioed in that he was taking the piss so when he went over that last time the ref had had enough. I don't blame Mascherano as he was all pepped up, we've all been there, right, when you just get so angry. We needed a bit more anger in our play.

I reckon up until the sending off we were as good as Man U and playing well and I thought we'd equalize at least. But as soon as he went off our confidence just evaporated and we capitulated completely, much like the game at Anfield.

So you can't point these matches and say Man United are miles better than us. They don't even have to play well to beat us, they can do it without breaking sweat. We're not that bad and they aren't that good. I reckon if Ferguson was managing the Liverpool squad and vice versa then Ferguson's team would have won. He's a better Premiership manager.

In conclusion. Fuck knows.

[rjpageuk]

Maybe Rafa should make a big deal about the need for protection and strong referees in the build up to games like this. I actually think that one of the things holding our domestic form back is that we're not ruthless enough. If we added a bit of the mob mentality to our game that would see us routinely harassing referees, pressuring linesmen and basically carrying on like Chelsea in their Mourinho driven prime, I'm sure we'd do much better than we do, domestically at least. I actually think our mentality works in our favour in Europe and is one of the reasons we tend to do better in the CL than the PL.

It is sad, but I agree. I like the way Liverpool dont tend to harass refs and I hate the way particuarly Chelsea do it. This is what makes this episode so frustrating.

I was fortunate enough to not see the game though as I was away. Hopefully we can move on and keep some of our form.