Sport Liverpool Football Club

[ras el hanout]

I didn't want him gone before the start of the season, it was mid September when it was clear it was going to be another same old same old season.

Games like last night prove we have good players if you can get them to play.

And if it is a case of him learning from his mistakes then great, that is what we all wanted. But it seems something has happened recently and if it was a case of the players voicing their concerns and him bowing to that then I can't see that working out long term. Sure it could work in the short term until there are difficult decisions to make or some bad results. Then I don't see how he'll have the support of the players. You know? That's my big concern right now. Hopefully though it is a case of him simply waking up. But even then, to change his philosophy like that, can that work? It'd be great if it could but I doubt it.

If you worked somebody and the boss wasn't doing things right until you expressed your concerns then you'd lose confidence in him, things might pick up for a bit, you know? Like if David Brent was running the show.

This Hicks thing, I thought we all hated Hicks? The cynic in me would say Rafa's warmed to Hicks because Hicks has promised him he can stay. What about all the stuff about Hicks bleeding clubs dry and him not wanting to sell because it'll effect the flotation of his sport's company? That hasn't gone away.

And there is no stability now, that's crazy. The paper talk is if DIC become involved then Rafa is out. I think if we'd lost the last few games people would be talking about the uncertainty about the owners and that we must get it sorted right now.

Anyway, great recent performances, Torres is fucking unbelievable. I was one who doubted he'd be a big success so even I can be wrong once. Even Riise played well last night apparently wtf?

What do you guys think about Owen possibly getting booed? I think it would be bad this time but I only think that because I feel sorry for the poor lad, fucking up his career. If he was playing for Chelsea and having a fine old time I'd boo his head off.

[Graham S]

I won't be booing Owen. Remember him winning us the FA Cup? I jumped in the air and knocked somebodies' toddler over and made him cry, and everyone at the barbecue looked at me like I was some kind of evil moron. Happy days. Those sort of memories are more important than players looking out for themselves first and foremost.

Who was it in this thread that kept bitching about Benitez in our glorious CL winning season? Nohsa? Warszawa? Ramone is this season's version, and his doubts are going to push us on to victory.

[V3zna]

What do you guys think about Owen possibly getting booed? I think it would be bad this time but I only think that because I feel sorry for the poor lad, fucking up his career. If he was playing for Chelsea and having a fine old time I'd boo his head off.

I don't feel sorry for him at all. The wee bastard ran his contract down while at the same time constantly telling us a new deal was close. He fucked us over and we seem to be getting the last laugh. Thanks for the memories Michael but go fuck yourself.

Anyway, I'm not sure he'll get many boo's. I think he'll get a good reception, before kick off at least.

[V3zna]

Who was it in this thread that kept bitching about Benitez in our glorious CL winning season? Nohsa? Warszawa? Ramone is this season's version, and his doubts are going to push us on to victory.

It was Nohsa. He was never convinced by Rafa.

I'll say it again. Personally I think Rafa has made quite a few mistakes this season. Possibly at the start of this season he had my full 100% backing. Now I'm not totally convinced. I think he might have blundered his way to the start of something really good now though and I still maintain he'll break with tradition and get all three points at somewhere like Old Trafford this season.

[Graham S]

Didn't they have Owen as a TV studio pundit for Istanbul? Ha! Our revenge was complete that night. I feel a bit sad for the wee lad now. All that running about Houllier made him do in the away legs of UEFA cup ties while the rest of the Liverpool team parked the bus in front of goal must have damaged him permanently somehow.

[dogsout]

This Hicks thing, I thought we all hated Hicks? The cynic in me would say Rafa's warmed to Hicks because Hicks has promised him he can stay. What about all the stuff about Hicks bleeding clubs dry and him not wanting to sell because it'll effect the flotation of his sport's company? That hasn't gone away.

And there is no stability now, that's crazy. The paper talk is if DIC become involved then Rafa is out. I think if we'd lost the last few games people would be talking about the uncertainty about the owners and that we must get it sorted right now.

Anyway, great recent performances, Torres is fucking unbelievable. I was one who doubted he'd be a big success so even I can be wrong once. Even Riise played well last night apparently wtf?

What do you guys think about Owen possibly getting booed? I think it would be bad this time but I only think that because I feel sorry for the poor lad, fucking up his career. If he was playing for Chelsea and having a fine old time I'd boo his head off.

I think it is fair to say that the majority of fans want Hicks out. I've certainly not forgotten about him but I'm quite confident DIC will eventually gain control. There is an air of stability because the rumours about Rafa getting the sack have gone away. Everything is pointing at him staying on for a while yet, whether DIC take over or not.

As for Owen: It'd be a shame for him to be booed. He was my favourite player during his time at the club and I'd like to think most fans have moved on from the bitterness he left behind when he ran his contract down and moved to Real Madrid.

Anyway, we've got Torres now.

[nohsa]

I won't be booing Owen. Remember him winning us the FA Cup? I jumped in the air and knocked somebodies' toddler over and made him cry, and everyone at the barbecue looked at me like I was some kind of evil moron. Happy days. Those sort of memories are more important than players looking out for themselves first and foremost.

Who was it in this thread that kept bitching about Benitez in our glorious CL winning season? Nohsa? Warszawa? Ramone is this season's version, and his doubts are going to push us on to victory.

Bitching is such a harsh word, I am still not convinced by Benitez. At the time I said that he is very unlikely to win the league over the next few years. Mind you I was as happy as everyone else when we took the trophy in Istanbul. Moreover it was all meant to be that year, but I still don't think we have made a lot of progress since.

[ras el hanout]

As for Owen: It'd be a shame for him to be booed. He was my favourite player during his time at the club and I'd like to think most fans have moved on from the bitterness he left behind when he ran his contract down and moved to Real Madrid.

Anyway, we've got Torres now.

Yeah, but would you feel the same if he was doing awesome for an awesome team, you know? I don't think I would. No matter what he did I find it impossible not to really feel sorry for him the way things have gone for him. I mean they pretty much couldn't have got any worse without his legs falling off.

[dogsout]

You're spot on, there. I watched him play for Real Madrid loads of times without feeling even a hint of bitterness toward him, and that's still the case now he's at Newcastle. I'm sure I'd have felt very differently if he'd have joined Arsenal, Chelsea or Man Utd, though.

Even after he moved to Real Madrid I hoped he'd come back and was more than a little disappointed that he agreed the move to Newcastle. I do feel sorry for him because I think in a lot of ways, the club let him down. Ged relied on him far too much and he was never given proper time to recover from his injuries. In the end it's him that is paying the price for that now as he's lost that explosiveness that made him so feared and has had to adjust his game as a result. He's had horrible luck with injuries and he could have achieved so much more than he inevitably will. However, I do think that ultimately, his choices took him to where he is today.

[Chewylegs]

So I read in the paper today that Rooney is happy with Fergusons rotation policy and he feels it has kept the midfielders/forwards fresh and meant they can challenge for all silverware.

And there was the media telling me that Ferguson didn't have a rotation policy!

Hmmmm, amazing how its only Rafa and his rotation policy that gets ripped apart everytime we lose!

[Hawkeye]

Hmmmm, amazing how its only Rafa and his rotation policy that gets ripped apart everytime we lose!

At this stage in the season and Liverpool where only a point behind the league leaders then Rafas rotation policy wouldn't be under attack, but then he's been rotating the team for yeras now and has never had a sniff of mounting a challenge for the league title. That's why it gets ripped apart.

[bowser123]

Hmmmm, amazing how its only Rafa and his rotation policy that gets ripped apart everytime we lose!

You're having a laugh, aren't you? All you ever hear is Utd can't win without Rooney, it's a one man team in Ronaldo. People are still banging on about West Ham, months and months later. Grant got crucified last week for his selection against Spurs.

Question for you. If teams rotate as much, then why are you so far behind and out of every domestic cup? It's hardly the first time it's happened, either.

Is it a shit squad? According to just about everybody in this thread circa Oct 2007 it's the best squad in the league. Maybe the manager is shit and rotates the wrong players, or picks the wrong games to fuck about in? Maybe they're big time Charlies and only want to know in the big games (though doesn't explain the dismal record against other top sides in the league)? Is the manager poor at motivating? Is it not the players as such at fault but the formation? Is it Gerrards fault for creasing his giant forehead in exasperation every time somebody does something wrong, which causes anxiety?

What's your take on it, I'm interested.

Oh, and Rooney? He's missed two games by choice of the manager all season. Fulham last week and Villa in the Cup in January, both times he came on as a late sub. What the fuck would he know about rotation?

Well, three if you include the Carling Cup but nobody played that day.

[V3zna]

Question for you. If teams rotate as much, then why are you so far behind and out of every domestic cup? It's hardly the first time it's happened, either.

Is it a shit squad? According to just about everybody in this thread circa Oct 2007 it's the best squad in the league. Maybe the manager is shit and rotates the wrong players, or picks the wrong games to fuck about in? Maybe they're big time Charlies and only want to know in the big games (though doesn't explain the dismal record against other top sides in the league)? Is the manager poor at motivating? Is it not the players as such at fault but the formation? Is it Gerrards fault for creasing his giant forehead in exasperation every time somebody does something wrong, which causes anxiety?

What's your take on it, I'm interested.

It is partly down to an inferior squad. We have crap like Pennant, Kewell, Voronin etc cluttering up our squad. Utd and Chelsea can often call on Nani, Ballack, Anelka, Hargreaves etc to come in when needed. Liverpool have a great core and a large squad but we need to trim away the excess rubbish and spend our budget on a couple of genuine quality players.

Our problems this season are down to a combination of mismanagement by Benitez and behind the scenes nonsense. We are on the right track now and if we stick to what we are doing then we should be able to keep tabs with the top three better next season. If not then Benitez should go.

[dogsout]

Good man, well said.

[bowser123]

It is partly down to an inferior squad.

Why the change of heart? People not performed as well as expected, or you feel simply past it?. Like I say, sorry to hark back, it wasn't so long ago everyone was adamant it was the best around. A few posts back it was said only two new players were needed, a fullback and a winger, no? I'd expect most teams to buy two players next season, too.

Our problems this season are down to a combination of mismanagement by Benitez and behind the scenes nonsense. We are on the right track now and if we stick to what we are doing then we should be able to keep tabs with the top three better next season. If not then Benitez should go.

I agree with this, to an extent. I do feel the players have been let off, mind. You've played appallingly and drew far too many at home from the bit I've seen. Maybe some is down tactics or rotation or whatever, but I've seen stuff where nearly every single player was atrocious. Lack of leadership by the captain or, like I suspect, big time Charlies that are only arsed in Europe?

The owner thing I half agree with. I've seen first hand how destructive months of negativity can be devastating after Ferguson irreparably damaged my club over horse spunk. Likewise my club benefited last season and to an extent this season over what happened with Mourinho and Ambrovich. That said, even with all that trouble and the likes of David fucking Bellion in the squad we were never out of it by January. Same with Chelsea this season and last.

Like I say though, all the hassle and negativity (it was interesting the fans only protested at half and full time on Wednesday) is destructive, I do feel it's being used as an excuse by some.

[Chewylegs]

You're having a laugh, aren't you? All you ever hear is Utd can't win without Rooney, it's a one man team in Ronaldo. People are still banging on about West Ham, months and months later. Grant got crucified last week for his selection against Spurs.

Question for you. If teams rotate as much, then why are you so far behind and out of every domestic cup? It's hardly the first time it's happened, either.

Is it a shit squad? According to just about everybody in this thread circa Oct 2007 it's the best squad in the league. Maybe the manager is shit and rotates the wrong players, or picks the wrong games to fuck about in? Maybe they're big time Charlies and only want to know in the big games (though doesn't explain the dismal record against other top sides in the league)? Is the manager poor at motivating? Is it not the players as such at fault but the formation? Is it Gerrards fault for creasing his giant forehead in exasperation every time somebody does something wrong, which causes anxiety?

What's your take on it, I'm interested.

Oh, and Rooney? He's missed two games by choice of the manager all season. Fulham last week and Villa in the Cup in January, both times he came on as a late sub. What the fuck would he know about rotation?

Well, three if you include the Carling Cup but nobody played that day.

Really? I haven't noticed that happening. All I ever here is "Rafa gets it wrong again" and "rotation doesn't work". Seriously I don't believe any of the other teams get it half as much as Liverpool. Granted it might be because we aren't at the top challenging but it seems much more down to the media loving to hate someone. Its not like we hear praise when he gets it right! When Man U rotate you don't even hear the word "rotate" used.

I would say we are out of the cups because we weren't good enough on the day. The side put out against Barnsley should have been more than good enough to win but it didn't happen like that. To blame it on 'resting' Torres is ridiculous. We are so far behind as you say because the team hasn't been good enough at home. I really don't know why but maybe too much faith in bit part players to do the business is one reason. Maybe taking for granted sides like Birmingham and Wigan is another reason too. That would be both the managers and the players fault. Personally I think we have a great squad, better than the previous two seasons but we still have players that aren't good enough that are getting games.

One thing you could say is if Rafa hadn't rotated where would we be now? You can't just say that we would be closer to the top, still in the Champions League and FA Cup, can you? Its quite possible we could be closer to the top, out of all cups and playing with a load of knackered, injured players. You just don't know. All I know is we have been poor at home, we are in with a very good chance of getting into the quarter finals of the Champions League again and that our season hasn't been as great as hoped. No one can tell whether not rotating the squad would have proved better though.

Well, yes, what the fuck would Rooney know about rotation apart from the fact that he is playing in a team that rotates (or according to the media. 'rests' players). One thing about Man U is they have more 'impact' players sat on the bench than us which personally i think is better for a rotating squad. If Kewell played like he did for Leeds, Pennant wasn't as lazy as he is or Lucas was more settled in the squad then these players would have more influence when they get into the side. They aren't so it means we struggle in some games when are impact players aren't on.

[larrydavidsanger]

You're having a laugh, aren't you? All you ever hear is Utd can't win without Rooney, it's a one man team in Ronaldo. People are still banging on about West Ham, months and months later. Grant got crucified last week for his selection against Spurs.

Question for you. If teams rotate as much, then why are you so far behind and out of every domestic cup? It's hardly the first time it's happened, either.

Is it a shit squad? According to just about everybody in this thread circa Oct 2007 it's the best squad in the league. Maybe the manager is shit and rotates the wrong players, or picks the wrong games to fuck about in? Maybe they're big time Charlies and only want to know in the big games (though doesn't explain the dismal record against other top sides in the league)? Is the manager poor at motivating? Is it not the players as such at fault but the formation? Is it Gerrards fault for creasing his giant forehead in exasperation every time somebody does something wrong, which causes anxiety?

Well, three if you include the Carling Cup but nobody played that day.

Why the change of heart? People not performed as well as expected, or you feel simply past it?. Like I say, sorry to hark back, it wasn't so long ago everyone was adamant it was the best around. A few posts back it was said only two new players were needed, a fullback and a winger, no? I'd expect most teams to buy two players next season, too.

I don't think anyone ever said it was the best around, our best squad in quite some time maybe, a squad that could challenge the likes of Man U and Arsenal maybe but the general consensus was never that it was the best team in the league

[dogsout]

The owner thing I half agree with. I've seen first hand how destructive months of negativity can be devastating after Ferguson irreparably damaged my club over horse spunk. Likewise my club benefited last season and to an extent this season over what happened with Mourinho and Ambrovich. That said, even with all that trouble and the likes of David fucking Bellion in the squad we were never out of it by January. Same with Chelsea this season and last.

I think it is a combination of all the things you've touched on there. We pretty much took it for granted that the players that were brought in and did OK last season would push on and improve, and the ones that were already playing well wouldn't go backwards. Unfortunately for us that hasn't happened. I don't blame Rafa for the rotation. The biggest mistake he's made in my mind is not playing any system consistently. Up until recently we didn't have a formation of our own. We would flit between 4-4-2, 4-4-1-1, 4-2-3-1 and even 3-5-2, depending on the given game and our opposition. I think the 4-2-3-1 really suits the squad in that it gets the best out of our best players and keeps the ones that haven't been performing away from the team.

It's also a little unfair to compare the trouble at Chelsea and Man U and how well they handled it to what we've had this season and how we've dealt with it. When all the trouble kicked off for them the managers were already in charge of experienced, expensive, title winning squads. Rafa's spent some money but it doesn't compare. We should definitely have handled it better than we have but we've never been title contenders before so I really don't think it was a realistic target for us this year (in hindsight) what with all the insanity going on off the pitch. Hopefully all involved will learn from this and be spurred on by it in the future. And I do think we've seen a change in approach by the manager.

[Graham S]

Football Fans in Start of Season Optimism Shock

[bowser123]

Well, yes, what the fuck would Rooney know about rotation apart from the fact that he is playing in a team that rotates (or according to the media. 'rests' players). One thing about Man U is they have more 'impact' players sat on the bench than us which personally i think is better for a rotating squad.

By in large, and certainly in the league, Utd don't though. The same core of players play practically every single game in the league. Only Giggs of the senior players is regularly rested or rotated, and that's down to his age. The same back five always play, as do Rooney and Ronaldo. It's been like this for years.

Last year Scholes and Carrick were ever present in the middle, it's injuries that's seen experimentation this season in the middle. I also don't think he knows his strongest pairing, but he seems to always play the same in certain types of game.

Utd certainly didn't start messing around in September, either. It was only last week against Fulham, in March, before widespread changes were made in a league game. I think we'll see a little more of that over the next five games, then that'll be it, it'll largely be the strongest team available. You think changing for a handful of games at this stage of the season is the same as playing FantasyRafa every week and nobody ever getting it right?

I think you're being fooled by statistics, like that one often dragged out that Benirtez did as many changes as Jose or Ferguson in title winning seasons. I think these numbers are skewed by things like having an entire back 4 out against Sheff Utd last year or the Giggs hokey-kokey, stuff like that.

Seriously, it'll burn your eyes, but click this link. It shows every team and Utd result since the year dot. Go ahead, pick a league game, use a "lesser" side as opposition... I bet you'll find it the best team available selected overwhelmingly many more times than not.

Anyhow, you get me wrong, I'm not blaming it on rotation, or resting, or dropping. I don't think the team is remotely good enough and don't pose much attacking threat outside of two players, hence all the draws and poor results via top sides, but that's just me. I also refer you back to Charlie.

And you're definitely wrong about Ferguson not being criticised, I know what I've read. Maybe we're more receptive and liable to notice stuff against our own team, as ye know, it's our own team.

[V3zna]

Why the change of heart? People not performed as well as expected, or you feel simply past it?. Like I say, sorry to hark back, it wasn't so long ago everyone was adamant it was the best around. A few posts back it was said only two new players were needed, a fullback and a winger, no? I'd expect most teams to buy two players next season, too.

I agree with this, to an extent. I do feel the players have been let off, mind. You've played appallingly and drew far too many at home from the bit I've seen. Maybe some is down tactics or rotation or whatever, but I've seen stuff where nearly every single player was atrocious. Lack of leadership by the captain or, like I suspect, big time Charlies that are only arsed in Europe?

The owner thing I half agree with. I've seen first hand how destructive months of negativity can be devastating after Ferguson irreparably damaged my club over horse spunk. Likewise my club benefited last season and to an extent this season over what happened with Mourinho and Ambrovich. That said, even with all that trouble and the likes of David fucking Bellion in the squad we were never out of it by January. Same with Chelsea this season and last.

Like I say though, all the hassle and negativity (it was interesting the fans only protested at half and full time on Wednesday) is destructive, I do feel it's being used as an excuse by some.

Certain players just did not rise to the challenge - Pennant for example. Certain players are past it - Kewell for example. Others have simply been at Anfield too long - Riise for example.

I certainly totally 100% disagree that our players are in any way big time Charlies or our Captain does not lead by example. Like I said before our problems are solely down to mismanagement by Benitez (the wrong team selection / tactics in certain league matches) and the chaos in the background. It looks like Rafa has possibly learned to adapt to the Premier League going by recent events and DIC will get their hands on us sooner or later. A couple of key signings in the summer and we should be able to compete at the top a bit better. We have plenty to look forward to as well in the future looking at our younger players.

[dogsout]

I think you're being fooled by statistics, like that one often dragged out that Benirtez did as many changes as Jose or Ferguson in title winning seasons. I think these numbers are skewed by things like having an entire back 4 out against Sheff Utd last year or the Giggs hokey-kokey, stuff like that.

I don't want to drag all of this shite back up because I remember just how tedious it was the last time it started but: The article you're referring to also gave start percentages for each team's 'spine'. You'd probably be surprised to know that our 'spine' of players started an almost identical percentage of games to Man U's and Chelsea's. One of our problems has been the impact of those outside the 'spine'. Since then we have also added to that core of players with the likes of Mascherano and Torres. As I've said: It's a combination of many things rather than just one simple cause.

[Graham S]

Football Fans in Start of Season Optimism Shock

For the record, I've never been optimistic about us winning the title since the season I thought signing Paul Ince would provide the missing link to propel us to glory.

[Graham S]

I like the way that playing out of your skin to get to 2 CL finals in 3 years with Traores, Kewells, Biscans and Zendens is somehow a bad thing. Big Time Charlies the lot of them!

[rjpageuk]

I do feel the players have been let off, mind. You've played appallingly and drew far too many at home from the bit I've seen. Maybe some is down tactics or rotation or whatever, but I've seen stuff where nearly every single player was atrocious. Lack of leadership by the captain or, like I suspect, big time Charlies that are only arsed in Europe?

I think this is harsh. Our title aspriations were over from drawing way too many at home in games we dominated and should have got something out of. Blame the strikers or our finishing or something.

Compare this to Man U at the start of the season where you started very badly, especially at home but kept somehow getting 1-0 results. You have been able to grind out results when you havent deserved it, and we havent. It is those 1-0 wins at the start of the season that will probably win you the title this year.

This has been something Liverpool just havent done over the past few seasons.

[Marzipan Travolta]

Be interesting to see how Liverpool would be doing if Torres was like he is now at the start of the season. I know it's always a case of "next season is our season" but that must feel less like wishful thinking now than it has before.

There'd still be the 'results against the big three' issue but looking at the Prem as it is now then it would be entirely possible to win the league without ever pulling a point from those games.

[Commander Jameson]

Times reporting that there is a power-sharing deal with GG selling 49% to DIC and 1% to TH. That's Statler out, but not happy on seeing Waldorf getting that majority.

[toonfool]

For the record, I've never been optimistic about us winning the title since the season I thought signing Paul Ince would provide the missing link to propel us to glory.

I hope to win it every year. Only two weeks ago we were still mathematically capable of winning the title.

Let's hope for a nice, clean fight today (with a 3-4 result).

[DeNeo]

Team for today:

The Liverpool line-up in full is: Reina, Riise, Arbeloa, Skrtel, Carragher, Benayoun, Pennant, Lucas, Alonso, Gerrard, Torres. Subs: Itandje, Hyypia, Crouch, Kuyt, Babel.

So resting Kuyt and Babel for the Milan game. Will be interesting to see how Benayoun and Pennant do in this new formation.

And if Torres can get another hat trick

[Warszawa]

So....

If Man Utd fail to win today (0-1 at home vs Portsmouth right now) they're potentially 8 or 9 in front of us come the end of the weekend. If we both keep on winning but ambush them at Old Trafford, the gap would be 6 points.

Now, we won't win the league this season but I think we're seeing right now that the gap is not unbridgable. If they don't equalise today, they've lost two more games than us - A dodgy run of draws has essentially done us in, but with a team, when at full-strength, which is as young as Arsenal's (but hasn't had the same amount of time to blend together from the teenage years), with our young reserve team topping their league things don't look all that bad for the future, do they?