Sport Liverpool Football Club

[V3zna]

The players are good enough, as we'll see tomorrow night. I mean, even if they weren't good enough to beat Man U they are good enough to beat Barnsley at home.

Those Pro-Rafa demonstrations must have the yankie-doodles scratching their heads in utter confoundment. I found the sight of supporters who stayed behind after the game to sing their "Yanks Out" protest a bit fucking embarrassing.

The players are good enough to beat Barnsley but ultimately there's just too many that are sub standard. I would love to see -

-----------------------Reina---------------------------

-----------Skrtel----Carragher----Agger----------

Arbeloa / -------------------------------------Riise

Finnan

----------Gerrard-------Mascherano-------Alonso

-----------------Torres----------------Babel----------

for the rest of the season. That first eleven plays to our strengths of having our three quality centerbacks on the pitch, Riise in a position that suits him perfectly, Alonso being free to do some playmaking and Babel up front instead of being stuck on a wing. The sooner Pennant, Benayoun, Kewell, Crouch etc are kept away from the starting eleven the better. For anyone that disagrees with me ask yourself this, how many of the players we have that are not in the above team would get into an Arsenal, Man Utd or Chelsea side?

As for the yanks out protest good souces are still reporting DIC are still on course for buying the club.

[Guest]

The players are good enough, as we'll see tomorrow night.

In that case you blame the manager, right?

[dogsout]

The players are good enough, as we'll see tomorrow night. I mean, even if they weren't good enough to beat Man U they are good enough to beat Barnsley at home.

Those Pro-Rafa demonstrations must have the yankie-doodles scratching their heads in utter confoundment. I found the sight of supporters who stayed behind after the game to sing their "Yanks Out" protest a bit fucking embarrassing.

The protests inside the stadium only started after it became clear they were going to place debt on the club and secure even more against it in the future. Their purpose wasn't to keep Rafa in his job, it had nothing to do with the manager.

[dogsout]

In that case you blame the manager, right?

I don't see how it is fair to blame him but not the players that have under performed. It's clear that it isn't working and he has to take responsibility for that. But so do the players. Why should they be able to pick up their (ridiculous) wages each week while escaping any criticism for completely soulless displays this season.

In the end he will bear the brunt of it, and so he should, I don't think there is anything that will keep him in this job now. I find that a shame because we all had high hopes but it hasn't worked out and I'm sure he'll be successful elsewhere. I just hope the club doesn't go backwards from here. I hope whoever we get in to replace him can get the most out of this squad as well as making additions (and being allowed the freedom to do so) that will improve it further.

Despite all of this, there really isn't any point in doing anything other than getting behind the team. Booing at games and shit like that won't help and would be breaking tradition. Hopefully the crowd on Tuesday will do their bit and maybe remind the team, in a positive manner, that they need to do their's again.

[marcus]

Its so going to be a Man United v Chelsea bore-a-thon final.

[Chewylegs]

I don't see how it is fair to blame him but not the players that have under performed. It's clear that it isn't working and he has to take responsibility for that. But so do the players. Why should they be able to pick up their (ridiculous) wages each week while escaping any criticism for completely soulless displays this season.

In the end he will bear the brunt of it, and so he should, I don't think there is anything that will keep him in this job now. I find that a shame because we all had high hopes but it hasn't worked out and I'm sure he'll be successful elsewhere. I just hope the club doesn't go backwards from here. I hope whoever we get in to replace him can get the most out of this squad as well as making additions (and being allowed the freedom to do so) that will improve it further.

Despite all of this, there really isn't any point in doing anything other than getting behind the team. Booing at games and shit like that won't help and would be breaking tradition. Hopefully the crowd on Tuesday will do their bit and maybe remind the team, in a positive manner, that they need to do their's again.

I tend to agree with this. I'm blaming the players AND the manager. How anyone can just say its the managers fault is beyond me. That team should have been good enough to beat Barnsley. We didn't beat them however so it has to be said do these players even want to break themselves into the starting eleven consistently. I think its a case of the players just not giving a fuck anymore and the manager not battering the shit out of them for it!

I've been spending the last two days looking at teletext half expecting Benitez to have gone. Its a shame but I think his time is finished.

As for tomorrow, I'll be watching and cheering us on. I just hope we rescue this season with Champions League glory but I wouldn't put money on it!

[dogsout]

I have no confidence in us getting anything out of the game on Tuesday. I never thought I'd be saying that about this game when the draw was made.

[Guest]

I don't see how it is fair to blame him but not the players that have under performed. It's clear that it isn't working and he has to take responsibility for that. But so do the players. Why should they be able to pick up their (ridiculous) wages each week while escaping any criticism for completely soulless displays this season.

Whatever. Look. If you're employed to get results from your team, be it in football or any other management position, and you're not, laying blame on them is lame. Especially if they're supposed to be good enough.

While Rafa isn't laying blame on them, and he wouldn't I t believe, you do as a MANAGER have to take responsibility.

I don't care if they're Premiership footballers on £80,000 a week or shop staff on £150 a week. You are directly responsible for their performance. If you can't get them to perform it IS down to you.

[ras el hanout]

Exactly, I mean, what's his job otherwise? Just picking a team? Well, most people could do that.

And if it were one or two players playing badly then you could blame the players, the whole squad though? Including Carragher! I don't know him personally but I'm pretty sure Carragher's giving it his all. And football should be easy, the players should be relaxed and confident, that's when they'll play best.

I mean, not being able to control or pass a ball, that's not not trying, that doesn't even take trying. That should be the most natural thing in the world unless you have no confidence in which case every pass is like taking a penalty in the world cup final. So I don't believe the players aren't trying.

[Guest]

Exactly, I mean, what's his job otherwise? Just picking a team? Well, most people could do that.

Let me have a go for a few days. If the players don't consistently win, it's them not showing pride/passion/not performing - it wouldn't be me not being able to get them to play/inspire them.

Easy money!

[ras el hanout]

Disciple, step into my office.

[dogsout]

Whatever. Look. If you're employed to get results from your team, be it in football or any other management position, and you're not, laying blame on them is lame. Especially if they're supposed to be good enough.

While Rafa isn't laying blame on them, and he wouldn't I t believe, you do as a MANAGER have to take responsibility.

I don't care if they're Premiership footballers on £80,000 a week or shop staff on £150 a week. You are directly responsible for their performance. If you can't get them to perform it IS down to you.

I don't see how it is fair to blame him but not the players that have under performed. It's clear that it isn't working and he has to take responsibility for that. But so do the players. Why should they be able to pick up their (ridiculous) wages each week while escaping any criticism for completely soulless displays this season.

In the end he will bear the brunt of it, and so he should, I don't think there is anything that will keep him in this job now. I find that a shame because we all had high hopes but it hasn't worked out and I'm sure he'll be successful elsewhere. I just hope the club doesn't go backwards from here. I hope whoever we get in to replace him can get the most out of this squad as well as making additions (and being allowed the freedom to do so) that will improve it further.

Despite all of this, there really isn't any point in doing anything other than getting behind the team. Booing at games and shit like that won't help and would be breaking tradition. Hopefully the crowd on Tuesday will do their bit and maybe remind the team, in a positive manner, that they need to do their's again.

Fuck sake. Way to miss my point. I said he has to take responsibility. He'll lose his job at the end of the season. The players won't, they think it's all gone wrong and they're probably right but they've stopped playing for him. Did you see Carragher and Gerrard shaking their heads when Lucas was brought on a couple of games ago? How anybody could watch that and condone their behaviour is beyond me. You don't do something like that in public. Then there's Carragher's off the record briefing with Bascombe, where he complained about playing right back for one fucking game, when our other two right backs were out injured. And I don't care how much you say they're trying, and they're short of confidence, I can see some of them have stopped playing for the manager. Gerrard openly remonstrates anybody that misplaces a pass and scowls when he is subbed, he's the fucking captain and he's shaking his head at the Brazilian player of the year coming off the bench to get some minutes.

If the players are above criticism in this situation then they are above criticism full stop. And the money they earn does come into it because I attend matches, I buy merchandise, I pay the obscene price for Sky Sports and Setanta, and therefore: I contribute to their wages. I'm not saying they're consciously trying to lose, I'm saying some of them don't care enough at the moment.

Rafa is to blame for this and he will be the one that pays the price in the end. The players shouldn't go unnoticed, though. They've played their part in this mess, too.

[ras el hanout]

Fuck sake. Way to miss my point. I said he has to take responsibility. He'll lose his job at the end of the season. The players won't, they think it's all gone wrong and they're probably right but they've stopped playing for him. Did you see Carragher and Gerrard shaking their heads when Lucas was brought on a couple of games ago? How anybody could watch that and condone their behaviour is beyond me. You don't do something like that in public. Then there's Carragher's off the record briefing with Bascombe, where he complained about playing right back for one fucking game, when our other two right backs were out injured. And I don't care how much you say they're trying, and they're short of confidence, I can see some of them have stopped playing for the manager. Gerrard openly remonstrates anybody that misplaces a pass and scowls when he is subbed, he's the fucking captain and he's shaking his head at the Brazilian player of the year coming off the bench to get some minutes.

If the players are above criticism in this situation then they are above criticism full stop. And the money they earn does come into it because I attend matches, I buy merchandise, I pay the obscene price for Sky Sports and Setanta, and therefore: I contribute to their wages. I'm not saying they're consciously trying to lose, I'm saying some of them don't care enough at the moment.

Rafa is to blame for this and he will be the one that pays the price in the end. The players shouldn't go unnoticed, though. They've played their part in this mess, too.

So... so you want the players to give 100% for something that's been proved time and time again not to work? I mean, of course they should but then they are human. The money they earn doesn't come into it. These people are getting paid for something they'd do for nothing, it's not their fault they're on a million pounds per week.

Carragher is going to go his career without winning the Premiership thanks in part to Benitez and you want him to give 120% for Benitez' madcap ideas? Benitex is going to be fine at Real Madrid next year, we shouldn't cry for him. It's the Carraghers I pity.

[Takizawa]

Well I was in Liverpool over the weekend and been chatting to many disappointed Reds fans, what the hell happened?

[Guest]

It has to be the straw that broke the camel's back. If he wasn't a great tactician in Europe I assume he would be gone already. I hope for a big result this week, but the club is in real dissaray at the moment.

[lampkin]

So... so you want the players to give 100% for something that's been proved time and time again not to work? I mean, of course they should but then they are human. The money they earn doesn't come into it. These people are getting paid for something they'd do for nothing, it's not their fault they're on a million pounds per week.

Carragher is going to go his career without winning the Premiership thanks in part to Benitez and you want him to give 120% for Benitez' madcap ideas? Benitex is going to be fine at Real Madrid next year, we shouldn't cry for him. It's the Carraghers I pity.

What's been proved time and time again not to work, or are we just talking about the past few months when the obvious decline started? Seems like you're using current form to dig up old arguments...

We can't seriously complain about anything before the last few months. If you ask me the players are reading the papers too much and believing their own hype. Maybe it's different in the premier league from europe, too many individuals perhaps not willing to play as a team? I understand Rafa was able to get previous teams to work together, what's gone so miserably wrong here?

[Guest]

Rafa is to blame for this and he will be the one that pays the price in the end. The players shouldn't go unnoticed, though. They've played their part in this mess, too.

Great. So what do you think we should do.

Don't boo the players, right?

You say get behind them - so we just moan about them behind their backs on the forum? Is that what we do? Or hold grudges? Or write Gerrard and Carragher letters? Picket to get them out for their indiscipline?

You can bet that if Gerrard and Carragher delivered the title next year we wouldn't care then.

If there is indiscipline there that's down to the manager. If he is seeing that why doesn't he sort it out. Obviously he can't. If he's lost the dressing room then perhaps he should go.

EVERY European game I'm convinced we should win. Vs Marseille I won that bet too, I was that convinced we'd turn them over. This time...I can't see it happening. For probably the first time in years (although I was not uber confident on the UCL final last year, just felt kinda wrong can't explain it).

Hmm mind you. No harm on a 3-1 Liverpool win (or Inter win..)

[ras el hanout]

What's been proved time and time again not to work, or are we just talking about the past few months when the obvious decline started? Seems like you're using current form to dig up old arguments...

We can't seriously complain about anything before the last few months. If you ask me the players are reading the papers too much and believing their own hype. Maybe it's different in the premier league from europe, too many individuals perhaps not willing to play as a team? I understand Rafa was able to get previous teams to work together, what's gone so miserably wrong here?

Benitez' Valencia had reached two Champions League finals in a row just before he took over.

Benitez' tactics in teh PL have been shown not to work. And it's not just the last couple of months. We were miles off last season but you have to give a manager time. If we looked better this season then that would have been great but we're worse than last year and we weren't good last year.

[Reynard]

Benitez' Valencia had reached two Champions League finals in a row just before he took over.

Benitez' tactics in teh PL have been shown not to work. And it's not just the last couple of months. We were miles off last season but you have to give a manager time. If we looked better this season then that would have been great but we're worse than last year and we weren't good last year.

We were looking pretty good this year (yeah, a few too many draws, but, y'know) until all this ugly business reared its head.

[dogsout]

So... so you want the players to give 100% for something that's been proved time and time again not to work? I mean, of course they should but then they are human. The money they earn doesn't come into it. These people are getting paid for something they'd do for nothing, it's not their fault they're on a million pounds per week.

Carragher is going to go his career without winning the Premiership thanks in part to Benitez and you want him to give 120% for Benitez' madcap ideas? Benitex is going to be fine at Real Madrid next year, we shouldn't cry for him. It's the Carraghers I pity.

No. I want the players to give their all for the club and its fans. You know, the ones that pay their wages. You can say they'd do their job for nothing but its patently not true in some cases. There are certain players that play for money first and foremost.

We haven't won the league since '89. That's not Rafa's fault. Lay the last 3 and a half years at his feet but the rest isn't down to him. Carragher actually has a lot to thank Rafa for. If it wasn't for him he'd probably still be seen as a utility man, and would almost undoubtedly be plying his trade elsewhere.

You two seem to be under the misconception that I am arguing against Rafa being sacked. Or that I think the players should be released or something daft. I am simply saying they have played their part in this mess and shouldn't escape criticism. However, at the end of the season Rafa will be gone. Until then we should all focus on getting 4th and supporting the team. They won't be able to do it with their own fans booing them.

Great. So what do you think we should do.

Don't boo the players, right?

You say get behind them - so we just moan about them behind their backs on the forum? Is that what we do? Or hold grudges? Or write Gerrard and Carragher letters? Picket to get them out for their indiscipline?

You can bet that if Gerrard and Carragher delivered the title next year we wouldn't care then.

If there is indiscipline there that's down to the manager. If he is seeing that why doesn't he sort it out. Obviously he can't. If he's lost the dressing room then perhaps he should go.

EVERY European game I'm convinced we should win. Vs Marseille I won that bet too, I was that convinced we'd turn them over. This time...I can't see it happening. For probably the first time in years (although I was not uber confident on the UCL final last year, just felt kinda wrong can't explain it).

Hmm mind you. No harm on a 3-1 Liverpool win (or Inter win..)

Of course you don't boo the players. But you don't hold them above criticism either. There is a middle ground you know.

[Guest]

Of course you don't boo the players. But you don't hold them above criticism either. There is a middle ground you know.

I'm being pragmatic. Unfortunately you can get rid of the manager but not the players.

[ras el hanout]

We were looking pretty good this year (yeah, a few too many draws, but, y'know) until all this ugly business reared its head.

Those draws were the problem.

And dogsout

I simply don't believe any player plays for Liverpool for money first and foremost. And who knows what would have happened with Carragher. I certainly don't think he would almost undoubtebly be playing elsewhere.

Is Dirk Kuyt totally shit at football? He's not, is he? That's the Rafa effect in full force. So do we slag off Kuyt? If Rafa's to blame for what he's done to Kuyt then how can we slag off the other players? Was Morientes totally shit at football? Bellamy? Pennent? Cisse? Voronin? Riise? Kewell? Are all these people shit at football, they do okay elsewhere.

"But they're not Liverpool quality."

Well maybe they're not all Kenny Daglish but they should be good enough to see off Birmingham.

[ras el hanout]

Those draws were the problem.

And dogsout

I simply don't believe any player plays for Liverpool for money first and foremost. It actually more believable that Rafa is trying to get himself sacked. He has a motive. And who knows what would have happened with Carragher. I certainly don't think he would almost undoubtebly be playing elsewhere.

Is Dirk Kuyt totally shit at football? He's not, is he? That's the Rafa effect in full force. So do we slag off Kuyt? If Rafa's to blame for what he's done to Kuyt then how can we slag off the other players? Was Morientes totally shit at football? Bellamy? Pennent? Cisse? Voronin? Riise? Kewell? Are all these people shit at football, they do okay elsewhere.

"But they're not Liverpool quality."

Well maybe they're not all Kenny Daglish but they should be good enough to see off Birmingham.

What a fuck up

[Guest]

Heard on SSN that Rafa agrees with the Carragher statements...

[dogsout]

I'm being pragmatic. Unfortunately you can get rid of the manager but not the players.

I've never suggested we should get rid of these players. Just that they are fair game as far as blame being aimed their way is concerned. Some of them more than others and some not at all.

Those draws were the problem.

And dogsout

I simply don't believe any player plays for Liverpool for money first and foremost. And who knows what would have happened with Carragher. I certainly don't think he would almost undoubtebly be playing elsewhere.

Is Dirk Kuyt totally shit at football? He's not, is he? That's the Rafa effect in full force. So do we slag off Kuyt? If Rafa's to blame for what he's done to Kuyt then how can we slag off the other players? Was Morientes totally shit at football? Bellamy? Pennent? Cisse? Voronin? Riise? Kewell? Are all these people shit at football, they do okay elsewhere.

"But they're not Liverpool quality."

Well maybe they're not all Kenny Daglish but they should be good enough to see off Birmingham.

So you're effectively saying that he must take the blame for the poor performers but take no credit for the good performers.

I agree with most of what you're saying, though. He hasn't got the team performing to the required standard and has little cause for argument as far as his job security is concerned presently.

[dogsout]

Heard on SSN that Rafa agrees with the Carragher statements...

Which differ entirely to the briefings I referred to earlier.

[Chewylegs]

Seriously guys, give it a fucking rest. How can you possibly blame the manager only?! Thats just spaztastic! Its his fault and some of the players who aren't performing. They are adults not fucking kids.

Tonight I really hope we see an attacking Liverpool. If we don't attack Inter at home then we are fucked. I want this to be the team but I doubt it will be.

---------------Reina

-Finnan--Carra--Hyypia--Arbeloa

-----Alonso----Mascherano-

----------Gerrard------------

Benayoun---Torres----Babel----

I really don't want Riise anywhere near the team at the mo and it saddens me to say that

[V3zna]

Tonight I really hope we see an attacking Liverpool. If we don't attack Inter at home then we are fucked. I want this to be the team but I doubt it will be.

---------------Reina

-Finnan--Carra--Hyypia--Arbeloa

-----Alonso----Mascherano-

----------Gerrard------------

Benayoun---Torres----Babel----

I really don't want Riise anywhere near the team at the mo and it saddens me to say that

Remove Hyypia for Skrtel (if fit?) and that looks ideal to me.

[DeNeo]

I've managed to get tickets for the match! I've never been to a Champions League game before (outside of qualifying). Of course trust it to be when we're on such a bad run

I confidently predict Kuyt and Riise will start tonight.

[larrydavidsanger]

Remove Hyypia for Skrtel (if fit?) and that looks ideal to me.

Probably the best lineup for me too. When's Agger due back, is it even going to be this season?