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Stilly

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ras el hanout

ras el hanout

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Posted
First of all I'd like to say I agree with all of your criticisms regarding the state of affairs on the pitch at the moment. But are you telling me you're not worried about what they're doing to the club? They are a far bigger threat to our future than us finishing outside the top four under Rafa. I don't think it's going to work out for us under Rafa. I've come to the conclusion that his future lies away from the club.

KNEEJERK!

And we'll turn more profit by being more successful. These guys have never owned Liverpool before so I'm prepared to give them a chance. We were in debt beofre they arrived and we're in debt now, but we're getting a stadium and we've got Torres, so things aren't all doom and gloom.

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I don't really blame the players. You can't tell from looking at a player whether he's giving his all. I've said before they're probably trying TOO hard. You've got to be relaxed to do your best.

Relaxed, kinda. It varies from person to person. You need to be fired up...you need to be motivated.

Can Rafa motivate the players? Certainly it seems that the moment he cannot. And for all the public words of "We're behind the manager", you just know as soon as they're gone it will be a different story. Recent examples would be Sven and Jol. Sven was hammered by a few players was he not, and when Ramos came in at least one Spurs player said it was now brilliant. That's a kick for a former boss if I saw one.

The buck stops with the manager. He picks the team, motivates the players, trains them, he is responsible for their performances on the pitch. A bad workman blames his own £40,000k a week tools.

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dogsout

dogsout

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KNEEJERK!

I hope you're joking. I fully expected us to lose yesterday and said as much in here before the game. I've been saying for a while that I doubt Rafa can do it, for whatever reason. I still think he's talented enough. It just isn't working. The yanks have completely undermined him this season, and despite what you claim, until this mess started we were playing very well and in within touching distance of the top. I think he should be given another season or two to get us where we want to be but it's clear to me now that the Americans will not allow it. Hicks has claimed Rafa will be allowed to see out his contract, but I very much doubt that will happen. I'd be surprised if he doesn't leave in the summer for a club that will back him both financially in the market and behind the scenes, letting him do his job in piece.

Wenger and Ferguson have both gone on record attributing much of their success to having the right men behind them at board level, allowing them the freedom to work in piece with full backing of the money men. Rafa deserves the same but he'll never get it under this pair. I have my criticisms, too. I've been frustrated at his reluctance to at least play a settled system if not a settled team. I've also been disturbed by some of his substitutions this season (the timing, to be precise) and it seems he is isn't able to get this lot focusing on the games and playing to the best of their ability consistently with confidence. I can't say why that is the case but I believe the Americans' treatment of him has gone some way to achieving that.

I hope he's still here next year, working under new owners that will give him proper backing in the market as well as staying behind the scenes and letting him get on with his job in piece.

And we'll turn more profit by being more successful. These guys have never owned Liverpool before so I'm prepared to give them a chance. We were in debt beofre they arrived and we're in debt now, but we're getting a stadium and we've got Torres, so things aren't all doom and gloom.

We'll turn more profit by being more successful but in order to attain that success we'll have to lay out a shed load of money. They won't do it.

We were in debt before they came, sure. But the figure was £40m. We're now £105m under and we're still yet to see a shovel go into the ground at Stanley Park. There's also the small matters of servicing the £35m a year loan repayments, as well as the other £250m debt waiting to be heaped onto the club if the holding company defaults on the loan.

Put it this way: Would you trust a convicted burglar to house sit your property? No chance. So why trust a person with a proven track record for making leveraged buyouts of sporting institutions, stripping them of their assets, depriving them of success and promising them 'state of the art' stadia that will allow them to bring success to the fans. All the while pocketing millions in dividends through merchandising streams and the fans devotion to their team.

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dogsout

dogsout

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Relaxed, kinda. It varies from person to person. You need to be fired up...you need to be motivated.

Can Rafa motivate the players? Certainly it seems that the moment he cannot. And for all the public words of "We're behind the manager", you just know as soon as they're gone it will be a different story. Recent examples would be Sven and Jol. Sven was hammered by a few players was he not, and when Ramos came in at least one Spurs player said it was now brilliant. That's a kick for a former boss if I saw one.

The buck stops with the manager. He picks the team, motivates the players, trains them, he is responsible for their performances on the pitch. A bad workman blames his own £40,000k a week tools.

While I agree with most of what you're saying. I still maintain that the players cannot be above criticism. I'm sorry but some of them have disgraced themselves this season. That can't all be laid at the feet of the manager, although he has to take responsibility for the results. And they've not been good enough.

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While I agree with most of what you're saying. I still maintain that the players cannot be above criticism. I'm sorry but some of them have disgraced themselves this season. That can't all be laid at the feet of the manager, although he has to take responsibility for the results. And they've not been good enough.

If the players are crap, the manager drops them surely? Or does something about it.

Yep certainly the players are to blame, but I still a lot of them aren't as bad as they're doing. To get them playing it's the manager's job.

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ras el hanout

ras el hanout

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While I agree with most of what you're saying. I still maintain that the players cannot be above criticism. I'm sorry but some of them have disgraced themselves this season. That can't all be laid at the feet of the manager, although he has to take responsibility for the results. And they've not been good enough.

Who have disgraced themselves?

It's confidence they're totally lacking, I simply can't believe that any of them are not motivated to play for Liverpool.

As for the Bill and George stuff, you're painting a pretty bleak picture, I'm sure it's not as bad as you make out.

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Who have disgraced themselves?

It's confidence they're totally lacking, I simply can't believe that any of them are not motivated to play for Liverpool.

As for the Bill and George stuff, you're painting a pretty bleak picture, I'm sure it's not as bad as you make out.

It's easy to look in from the outside and think "I can't believe that is happening..." but when you're a part of it, especially if your manager is not fulfilling his role properly, not creating a good team spirit and putting trust in you [chop and change], then it can be difficult to be motivated.

We've all experienced this, I know I've seen this sort of thing happen in other workplaces.

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dogsout

dogsout

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Who have disgraced themselves?

It's confidence they're totally lacking, I simply can't believe that any of them are not motivated to play for Liverpool.

As for the Bill and George stuff, you're painting a pretty bleak picture, I'm sure it's not as bad as you make out.

Off the top of my head: Kewell, Kuyt, Momo and Riise. Many more have been awful of late. I'm not saying the manager isn't responsible for the way the team plays, just that the players themselves are too.

If you can't believe that any of them aren't motivated to play for Liverpool is there anything they could do to change your mind? They're playing pretty much as badly as they can at the moment.

I'm painting a bleak picture and you're sure it's not as bad as I'm making out. I'll ask you again: what are you basing this faith on? It seems to me that you're just hoping for the best. It isn't really fair that you say I'm making it seem worse than it is without first taking the time out to read up on some of the things they've done in the past.

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ras el hanout

ras el hanout

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I'm painting a bleak picture and you're sure it's not as bad as I'm making out. I'll ask you again: what are you basing this faith on? It seems to me that you're just hoping for the best. It isn't really fair that you say I'm making it seem worse than it is without first taking the time out to read up on some of the things they've done in the past.

Oh no, I'm not just hoping for the best, it's just it's terribly hard to find a balanced view on this refinancing, so I'm not hoping for the worst either. Type it into google and you just get a lot of people frothing, with news stories coming from the sports pages rather than the financial pages. I can't pretend to be a financial genius when it comes to massive takeovers.

This seems pretty balanced though.

Couple of facts re the acquisition; the acquisition is a leveraged buyout, which is standard both in the US and Europe. Unfortunately, it's probably the second worst area (next to sub-prime and related products) of financing to be in these days. That being said, the suggested rate re the interest is actually a relatively good one given current market conditions.

The funny thing about this all is that the LFC board allegedly insisted that only a portion of the debt be put on the club. If so, this is actually worst for the club as in the end all of the financing is dependent on the club, but because a Holding Company (HoldCo) structure has been created, the HoldCo debt will have to be more expensive (i.e. its further away from the assets), thereby making the overall funding cost higher than if everything was placed on the club.

And for those who think there is more risk placing all the debt on the club, the reality is that the HoldCo debt will have recourse back to the asset (LFC) anyway, albeit subordinated to the other loan.

At the end of the day, this financing will completely be supported by the club, however, the banks (and G&H) will have modelled out forecasts of revenues and in their model would have had an assumption of not making the Champions League X number of times per 4, 5 etc. number of years, or conversely would have modelled making the Champions league X number of times per 4, 5....periods. This sets up a certain level of what is called sensitivity. As well, they would not have made the loan, nor would G&H have done the deal, predicated on winning the league or the Champions League. Rather, they would have assumed a steady state of performance such as always finishing fourth. Where this becomes an issue is that its no longer a certainty that LFC will be getting to the Champions League as often as in the pass given the funds being spent by the clubs below. Of course one of the things that G&H are banking on is getting additional revenues through developing the marketing side of the club which is woefully underdeveloped, thanks to the LFC board.

If at the end of the day the club is unable to pay its interest (and cannot get a waiver from the banks) then G&H would have to decide if they want to put in cash. This would be based on the state of the club and the likely potential at that time. Otherwise they can let it go into default at which case the banks own the company. Under this scenario, G&H will not make a profit as has been suggested in earlier posts.

As people point fingers, certainly some should be pointed at the board who would have to be the dumbest people on earth if they really believed G&H would not have had financing dependent on the club and therefore place the debt on the club. How else would they have funded the deal?

Reality is that G&H do not have liquid funds (i.e. cash) readily available, which is evident by just looking at their holdings. The fans (those that no longer support G&H) excuse is clearly that of ignorance, but I can't tell what the board's excuse is and it should not be viewed as a "win" that Parry et. al. got only a portion of debt placed on the club.

As for Arsenal's financing, it's effectively similar in that there is substantial debt that is supported by income from the stadium and invariably it restricts the club's spending ability. So I would not portend to be all high and mighty in this context if I were a Gooner.

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dogsout

dogsout

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It does sound balanced but it is the view of one fan and offers very little comfort to me as a supporter. I don't have a problem with them putting the debt on the club if that will help bring success. My main gripe is they went on all high and mighty about how this takeover was different from the Glaziers at Man U because no debt was being placed on the club and blah blah blah. They made a load of promises and have subsequently broken them all. There's all of the nonsense in the media and then there are their previous stints in sports club ownership that have gone badly wrong or ended in mediocrity.

I'm worried for the future of the club. Maybe they'll prove all of us doubters wrong in time and either bring in a manager that turns us around or keep Rafa on with proper backing and he somehow gets us where we want to be. I think that if they stay in charge then they are more likely to take us backwards than forwards.

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ras el hanout

ras el hanout

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It does sound balanced but it is the view of one fan and offers very little comfort to me as a supporter. I don't have a problem with them putting the debt on the club if that will help bring success. My main gripe is they went on all high and mighty about how this takeover was different from the Glaziers at Man U because no debt was being placed on the club and blah blah blah. They made a load of promises and have subsequently broken them all. There's all of the nonsense in the media and then there are their previous stints in sports club ownership that have gone badly wrong or ended in mediocrity.

I'm worried for the future of the club. Maybe they'll prove all of us doubters wrong in time and either bring in a manager that turns us around or keep Rafa on with proper backing and he somehow gets us where we want to be. I think that if they stay in charge then they are more likely to take us backwards than forwards.

Seriously, it's really hard to find a story from somebody who sounds like they know what's going on. I'm not sure that was even a post from a fan, it wasn't from a football site. And Bill and Ted have put up over £200m in personal guarantees. That's as good as cash at the end of the day, so it's not like they've nothing to lose if we get relegated 5 times.

It is interesting as to why Moores never did it.

But it's a time will tell thing so that's why I'm not too worried at the moment, there's no point being too negative.

HA! Listen to me, Mr Negativity!

Seriously though, let's see how they get on in the summer. If things go wrong then we can moan, at the moment they've been okay with the money. Sure we've recouped a lot but then there's no point keeping players we don't need.

I'm far more worried about what's going on on the pitch.

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squirtle

squirtle

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Off the top of my head: Kewell, Kuyt, Momo and Riise. Many more have been awful of late. I'm not saying the manager isn't responsible for the way the team plays, just that the players themselves are too.

If you can't believe that any of them aren't motivated to play for Liverpool is there anything they could do to change your mind? They're playing pretty much as badly as they can at the moment.

I'd argue against Kuyt, Riise and Momo not being motivated to play. Kuyt always gives his all, as does Riise. Momo ran like a fucking gazelle constantly. The problem is is that they're going through bad spells (hence it being something of a miracle we got so much for Momo). It happens. I don't think they've disgraced themselves. It's just not happening for them, but not for lack of trying.

Kewell, on the other hand... :unsure:

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dogsout

dogsout

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I'd argue against Kuyt, Riise and Momo not being motivated to play. Kuyt always gives his all, as does Riise. Momo ran like a fucking gazelle constantly. The problem is is that they're going through bad spells (hence it being something of a miracle we got so much for Momo). It happens. I don't think they've disgraced themselves. It's just not happening for them, but not for lack of trying.

Kewell, on the other hand... :unsure:

Kuyt tries but has been nowhere near the standards he set for himself. He's put that down to his father's death and its affect on him. I'm in no position to argue against that but I'd certainly argue that in terms of what he is capable of he has been awful.

Riise used to try and his workrate always saved him whenever he went through patches of poor form before. But last season he was below par and this season he's been terrible and his workrate has plummeted.

Momo was obviously out of form and handicapped by minimal playing time. I'm not saying they are doing it on purpose. Just that they should be doing better than they are and the manager can't fully take the blame for them putting in so many poor performances this season.

Kewell, however, has disgraced himself and the shirt. He doesn't look arsed at all.

I'm sure some of you will think the above is harsh, and it probably is a bit, but it's no harsher than expecting Rafa to take all of the blame while the players escape all criticism.

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Sng

Sng

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Hmm, Crouch to Newcastle is a rumour now. And I can see it happening.

Also:

2254: "I've just heard from my mate who lives in Anfield and he said Quaresma is not there. However, he did say that he thinks he saw Pablo Aimar."

bigbrenriley on 606

Who knows, who knows!

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"A friend of mine up in scouser land said hes seen sky andrew arrive at anfield. Thats jermaine defoes agent. Perhaps crouch is off, but hardly like for like?"

There.

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