Sport Liverpool Football Club

[dogsout]

I think it all depends on the confidence.

And also, I think that some of the more mature, level headed members of the squad - Gerrard therefore not included - should be sounded out as to whether they still have confidence in the manager. The only instance in which I would be advocate of change is if the players actually do not trust the manager's methods at this stage and if there is a top notch candidate ready to take the helm. And by top notch, I mean someone of the calibre of Gus Hiddink, not a populist appointment of a has-been like Kenny Dalglish, which is the sort of move desperate, small clubs make. Personally, I think changing boss during the season very rarely ends well and would likely be the final nail in any pretentions of finishing fourth.

I agree with all of that and as I've said a few times over the last few weeks: I'm starting to think that time is approaching. It may be too late, they may have lost faith already. Hiddink would be a fine replacement and one of the few I'd accept. Still, it's only January and we've got two trophies to play for. Maybe he can sort it out.

[ras el hanout]

As for Kuyt, I could never hate him but his confidence is shot to shit. He gets loads of games but he has no faith in himself to put the ball in the net any more.

I feel sorry for Rafa and the fact he has to pick him. He's totally stymied there, having as we do no other players.

And you can see the players have no confidence in Rafa. It's the most obvious thing in the World. A couple of players have expressed unhappiness, Sissoko, Bellamy, Cisse, and fair play to Rafa, he took it like a man and kept faith with those players, so yeah, I can see a scenario where the players express in words rather than on the pitch their real opinions on him.

[Guest]

And by top notch, I mean someone of the calibre of Gus Hiddink, not a populist appointment of a has-been like Kenny Dalglish, which is the sort of move desperate, small clubs make.

Harsh words!

[Warszawa]

I do think though that we have to look at the bigger picture too.

There's going to be barely any money for the squad until the new stadium is built, thanks to the debt. So, we cannot expect to catch Chelsea or Man Utd in that time. For all of the failings, it could be that keeping Rafa and keeping a 4th place ship steady is the best thing we can reasonably do at this point. Sack, and unless there's Hiddink or someone equal we risk making a Venables esque appointment ala Leeds, and we then risk much, much more than was imaginable prior to Mr. Moores selling to The Cowboys. Player sales, endless mediocrity and possibly relegation. I don't know about you, but I'll take 4th place or 5th place behind Everton combined with a CL victory every season rather than that. In these most fragile of times, we have to consider what makes the club the most money and we all know that Rafa is exceptional in that area.

We have to be careful what we wish for.

[ras el hanout]

I don't know about you, but I'll take 4th place or 5th place behind Everton combined with a CL victory every season rather than that.

We have to be careful what we wish for.

I wouldn't take that, to be honest. I'd rather have a go than stay where we are, even if we have to take a step back to go forwards. You're right about not sacking him now, Rafa is out best chance at finishing forth this season, only because of the mess he's got us into. A CL vicotry this season won't be nearly as fucking brilliant as Istanbul, because we thought Istanbul was the start of something, not the end of something.

And really, our squad is great, you wait and see how great Kuyt is with a new manager. You're right about our defense though, Skrtle and Agger though, it's mostly there.

[Warszawa]

You know what?

Rafa's biggest error as manager was bowing to the ignorant twats who failed to notice that our TEAM not just Gerrard was infinitely better when played on the right. I wonder if Gerrard is our Shearer in terms of morale? The man who controls the dressing room and almost overrides the manager. If so, we either put him in his place (which no one dared do to Shearer at Newcastle) or pack his bags for him.

[Pochacco]

Amazing.

Indeed.

The Hammers are closing in!

[lampkin]

shocking...

[ras el hanout]

You know what?

Rafa's biggest error as manager was bowing to the ignorant twats who failed to notice that our TEAM not just Gerrard was infinitely better when played on the right. I wonder if Gerrard is our Shearer in terms of morale? The man who controls the dressing room and almost overrides the manager. If so, we either put him in his place (which no one dared do to Shearer at Newcastle) or pack his bags for him.

I said that and agree completely. The problem could well be Gerrard, but if the problem is Gerrard then the problem's Rafa for not smacking his bum. Wasn't it Gerrard who started picking the team under Houllier. There were rumours about that, him telling Houllier not to play Baros.

[DeNeo]

We need stability now. Let a first 11 play together for a few games, so they can actually get used to playing with each other, then once that's working, rest a couple. Of course what makes it harder is that no one's playing well anymore. So play our best performers this season:

---------------Reina

Arbeloa--Carra--Agger (when fit)--Aurelio

Gerrard--Mascherano--Alonso--Babel

----------Torres------Crouch

We're not playing our best players. Kuyt, Kewell, Riise, (and to a lesser extent) Benayoun have been below par, yet keep playing because of rotation.

[dogsout]

It'll never happen under Rafa. He's not going to stop rotating, no matter what.

[dogsout]

You know what?

Rafa's biggest error as manager was bowing to the ignorant twats who failed to notice that our TEAM not just Gerrard was infinitely better when played on the right.

I typed so many posts about that back in the day it was ridiculous. To be fair to him he's done well this season but I think the team would be so much better if he were still playing on the right. Again, though: it's not going to happen now.

[Reidles]

It's just not fair that they put the highlights on directly after the Utd game on MotD. It just makes me really jealous.

[DeNeo]

It'll never happen under Rafa. He's not going to stop rotating, no matter what.

I didn't mind it early on, because I thought we had a good squad. But with so many players not playing well, when I was coming up with that team I couldn't think of anyone else I'd play. Maybe that's a bit harsh on Finnan and Benayoun, but overall they've been average at best this season. I was even in 2 minds about Babel.

Rotating more than 1 or 2 players every game will only ever work if the players coming in play well. That's just not happening. That could be down to the manager, the mess behind the scenes or lack of confidence breeding lack of confidence - but whatever it is, it's not sorting itself out by rotating so many players every game.

Having said that, if he doesn't start with Torres and Crouch at the weekend I'll lose all confidence in him. However much work Kuyt is doing, no goals in god knows how many games is shocking.

That turned into more of a rant than I wanted. But god - 7th and 17 points from top

[Daley]

<a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7217238.stm" target="_blank">http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7217238.stm</a>

Liverpool supporters are to launch an ambitious plan to buy the football club from its current American owners.

US tycoons George Gillett and Tom Hicks recently finalised a £350m refinancing of the club which they bought in 2007.

But the Share Liverpool FC Group is to reveal plans for a buy-out of the club by 100,000 Reds fans around the world.

The model proposed will be a Barcelona style, "member-share" scheme, aimed at raising £500m to purchase the club from its US owners and build a new stadium.

As well as UK-based fans, a website will be launched to attract interest from Liverpool's supporter base around the world, particularly in East Asia.

I would imagine it is a very long shot but I would be interested to see a system like this and if it would work over here. As it says Barca, and Real Madrid also I think, are run like this. Why not I guess? For me the fans are the people who invest most in a football club anyway, why not own it?

[Sng]

100,000 around the World? I reckon so.

[Kelthink]

£5000 per head.

Are there 100,000 people willing/able to do that?

That's an average, innit? Some will more than others.

I hope it happens...

As for the game...if H&G aren't ousted soon, I can see Rafa simply leaving. There's no way he'll put up with this bullshit for much longer, and I reckon he's got the same confidence levels as Kuyt.

[Twyford]

£5000 per head.

Are there 100,000 people willing/able to do that?

Even if they do why would Gillette and Hicks sell? They're not interested in selling to DIC why would they sell to a fans consortium?

[V3zna]

Even if they do why would Gillette and Hicks sell? They're not interested in selling to DIC why would they sell to a fans consortium?

The wave of bad feeling against Gillet and Hicks is not subsiding and even if the fan scheme flops it lets them know, once again, they are not welcome at our club.

If last nights defeat had of been an unlucky one I could have stomached it but it wasn't and West Ham deserved to win. That's not good enough. 10 wins out of 23 games, even with the problems behind the scenes, is nowhere near good enough.

[ras el hanout]

This fan scheme, I mean, it's grabbing at straws somewhat. I think we have to give these two chumps a chance. They get the stadium built, money for players and hopefully things will be okay on the finance front. I'm sure these people aren't quite as stupid as they seem to be, they couldn't be.

And just to be clear again, as a person Rafa seems tremendous, he's cool and everything, the coolest mamanger in the Premiership and loves the club. It upsets me to see his post match interviews. I hope he goes to Real Madrid and does super duper. But the longer this goes on he's dragging us down and his own reputation. I want to get excited about Liverpool again, you know?

[rgraves]

I've stayed out of this thread for a while, but just want to pop in again as I was (un)lucky enough to be at the game last night. Seriously, the fans need to stop being distracted by Hicks & Gillette and start concentrating on the fact that Benitez has lost the players, and seemingly lost his marbles in the process. The constant rotation is *not* working, Aurelio was atrocious last night, Kuyt was probably worse. Crouch was left on the bench when we really needed to try a different option, and I'm ashamed to say that I saw a Liverpool team last night which set out to get a draw at Upton Park. We had no fire in our belly, we had no real ambition, we were so worried about the opposition that we didn't even begin to play our own game. Honestly, I think Rafa has been *very* lucky to have the current situation shielded by all the re-financing talk. Without that distracting people, I think he'd be (rightly) feeling the heat a lot more right now.

We're going backwards not forwards, and I really think people are looking to put the burden of blame in the wrong place with H&G.....

[V3zna]

I've stayed out of this thread for a while, but just want to pop in again as I was (un)lucky enough to be at the game last night. Seriously, the fans need to stop being distracted by Hicks & Gillette and start concentrating on the fact that Benitez has lost the players, and seemingly lost his marbles in the process. The constant rotation is *not* working, Aurelio was atrocious last night, Kuyt was probably worse. Crouch was left on the bench when we really needed to try a different option, and I'm ashamed to say that I saw a Liverpool team last night which set out to get a draw at Upton Park. We had no fire in our belly, we had no real ambition, we were so worried about the opposition that we didn't even begin to play our own game. Honestly, I think Rafa has been *very* lucky to have the current situation shielded by all the re-financing talk. Without that distracting people, I think he'd be (rightly) feeling the heat a lot more right now.

We're going backwards not forwards, and I really think people are looking to put the burden of blame in the wrong place with H&G.....

I have to agree that we are now at the stage where Rafa's reign has to be once again questioned although G&H's tenure so far deserves severe scrutiny. Benitez has the world class Torres, Mascherano and Gerrard at his disposal but has also managed to turn Alonso and Kuyt into the epitomy of mediocrity. For every player like Torres and Arbeloa who flourishes we have others like Riise, Alonso and Kuyt sinking deeper week by week. Rafa has to find a balance quickly or else, if not already, he's a dead man walking. It's time our players where let off the leash. They are being stifiled by negativity.

[Graham S]

I would imagine it is a very long shot but I would be interested to see a system like this and if it would work over here. As it says Barca, and Real Madrid also I think, are run like this. Why not I guess? For me the fans are the people who invest most in a football club anyway, why not own it?

Why not do this long before the club was sold? We've been openly looking for financing for years. It seems a bit late now. Nobody has covered themselves in glory lately: Hicks, Gillett, Moores, Parry, Benitez, the players, the fans. Bah.

Ah well, I told myself when we won the CL that it would be OK with me if we didn't win anything else for years. Looks like I'm going to have to make good on that promise.

[larrydavidsanger]

I've stayed out of this thread for a while, but just want to pop in again as I was (un)lucky enough to be at the game last night. Seriously, the fans need to stop being distracted by Hicks & Gillette and start concentrating on the fact that Benitez has lost the players, and seemingly lost his marbles in the process. The constant rotation is *not* working, Aurelio was atrocious last night, Kuyt was probably worse. Crouch was left on the bench when we really needed to try a different option, and I'm ashamed to say that I saw a Liverpool team last night which set out to get a draw at Upton Park. We had no fire in our belly, we had no real ambition, we were so worried about the opposition that we didn't even begin to play our own game. Honestly, I think Rafa has been *very* lucky to have the current situation shielded by all the re-financing talk. Without that distracting people, I think he'd be (rightly) feeling the heat a lot more right now.

We're going backwards not forwards, and I really think people are looking to put the burden of blame in the wrong place with H&G.....

I think this is my main gripe with the way Rafa sets out his team, it's all well and good setting out a team to stifle the big clubs in Europe but in the league when you play teams like Derby, Wigan, Sunderland etc we shouldn't have to worry about their strengths because they'll never be on par with ours; I know West Ham are a better side than all those but still sometimes it seems Rafa worries so much about what the opposition is going to do and finding a way to nullify their threat that he fits the side in around the defensive plans.

I haven't lost faith in Rafa yet but he really needs to buck up his ideas in the coming weeks.

[dogsout]

We're going backwards not forwards, and I really think people are looking to put the burden of blame in the wrong place with H&G.....

First of all I'd like to say I agree with all of your criticisms regarding the state of affairs on the pitch at the moment. But are you telling me you're not worried about what they're doing to the club? They are a far bigger threat to our future than us finishing outside the top four under Rafa. I don't think it's going to work out for us under Rafa. I've come to the conclusion that his future lies away from the club.

I honestly don't see how anyone that has done their homework on these two can feel comfortable with them in charge of the club. They bought the fucking club without putting a penny of their own money in and are now forcing the club to pay for itself. Mark my words: They don't care about us, they don't care about success in the traditional sense; they don't care about winning. All they care about is turning a profit. Please, for fuck's sake, anyone that is placing their faith in these two cunts, go and have a read about their past sporting business ventures.

[rgraves]

But are you telling me you're not worried about what they're doing to the club?

No, I'm not saying that. I am worried about what plans they may have. BUT I'm more worried by the fact that our form under Rafa appears to be nosediving almost 'under the radar' because of it. To me, the bigger, more immediate, worry is what is happening on the pitch right now - and yet the majority of the fans appear to be being swept along with the ownership issue and paying no attention at all to anything else.

I've lost faith in Rafa - he's made far too many crazy decisions, and continued to stick by far too many crazy players/ideas. Why is Kuyt stil playing much more than Crouch? Why are we still rotating to such an enourmous degree when it's clear we need to put our strongest 11 on the field and build some confidence through results? Why have we become so negative as a side? Why does he insist on saying the side is playing well when it's blatantly clear that we're not? Fans are making excuses for him right now, I don't think they should be.

[dogsout]

Fair enough. I still think the club being sucked dry and left a broken mess is more of a concern than the way we're playing. The fans are right to worry about that and do all they can to get these cunts out of here. The problem being: there isn't an awful lot we can do but make banners, sing songs and make our feelings heard. What can we do about Rafa? Loads of fans are saying the same as you; they've lost faith in him. What else can we as supporters do about that situation? He'll be gone in the summer anyway, of that I'm almost certain.

[Guest]

What else can we as supporters do about that situation? He'll be gone in the summer anyway, of that I'm almost certain.

There must be a few in the TA/Militant types who own high powered rifles? The ultimate sacrifice!

(Short of strapping yourself up with stolen car tyres [you see what I've done there], dousing yourself in petrol, and launching yourself at the pair, burning effigies in hand).

[Hawkeye]

As a fan of a club that was almost killed and only now exists (at a lower level) due to the fans taking ownership all I can say is take what's happening at board level far more seriously that what is happening on the pitch. The success on the pitch can always return, as long as the right people have control of the club and it's best interests at heart.

[dogsout]

ON A DAY when Liverpool fans were asked to back a scheme which would see them have to come up with £5,000 a man to support their club, it probably wasn't the best time for the team to produce a performance which must have left many in the away end wondering why they even bother buying a ticket.

If it's bang for your buck you're looking for then you're more likely to get a bigger return from buying shares in Northern Rock than you are from following the Reds at present.

Yesterday, 3,000 of Liverpool's most loyal fans made the trip to London's east end from Merseyside, paying a hefty £43 for a ticket alone – and all they got back was the latest instalment in their club's ongoing crisis.

If the first half promised little, the second delivered even less as Liverpool conceded a last minute penalty which Mark Noble struck home with the kind of confidence so many of Rafa Benitez's players are clearly lacking.

The fact that the Hammers were in such a position owed everything to Liverpool's chronic inability at set pieces.

This time it was one of their own – rather than one of the opposition's – which cost them a vital goal as a Fabio Aurelio corner resulted in a West Ham breakaway which ended only when Jamie Carragher scythed down Freddie Ljungberg as the former Arsenal man bore down on goal.

Referee Alan Wiley had no option but to award a penalty and this time even Pepe Reina was unable to deny West Ham from 12 yards.

In the current climate it is all too fitting that Liverpool's defeat should be self-inflicted because for the last three months the club has shot itself in the foot time and time again.

To go from title talk to crisis talk in the space of just 12 weeks is an incredible downturn and the worst thing is it seems no-one at Anfield is prepared to do anything to arrest the decline.

The only hope being clung to is that DIC will come to the club's rescue and rid it of all the negative forces which are currently dragging it deeper and deeper towards an all too predictable nadir.

But unless and until that happens, Liverpool are faced with the stark prospect of seeing a season which promised so much culminate in nothing but abject failure.

Forget Champions League qualification if their winless run in the league goes on for much longer. Their target for the season will be the booby prize that is the UEFA Cup.

Everyone at Liverpool must take responsibility for that – the absentee owners who have sent shockwaves of uncertainty rippling through the club; those who not only handed them the keys to Anfield, but also rolled out the red carpet; the manager who has failed to deliver on his promise to create a title challenging side and the players who have allowed themselves to be distracted by the ongoing circus off the pitch.

Each and every one of them can make a case for their own defence and each and every one of them can offer excuses and point fingers at one another. Make no mistake about it, this is exactly what is happening now.

An outbreak of blame culture means no-one is taking responsibility and the weakness this creates means Liverpool are in danger of imploding.

It's not about ill fortune or the fates conspiring against you, it's about failing to take control of your own destiny and giving inferior opponents an open invitation to kick you when you're down.

This is Liverpool in 2008 – a club lacking in direction, leadership and conviction.

The malaise on the pitch since November may have been masked by the ongoing farce off it. But now the mask has slipped and what is there for all to see is that this Liverpool side is far from being good enough.

You don't have to look at the league table to realise this – although seventh place in the Premier League, 17 points behind the leaders tells its own sorry story – you just have to look at the way they are performing.

The fact is there is not a single player operating in a wide position for Liverpool, either in defence or attack, who would get anywhere near Manchester United's and Arsenal's squads, never mind their teams.

The sight of Harry Kewell avoiding tackles and continuously failing to beat his man is almost as shocking as the fact that he actually gets picked at all. Not that his fall from grace seems to bother the Australian if the sight of him laughing and joking in the bowels of Upton Park just minutes after such a sickening defeat is anything to go by.

Kewell is far from being alone, though. Apart from the usual suspects there are too many who wear the Liver Bird upon their chest as if it's little more than a flag of convenience.

They don't look as if they care for the club and they certainly wouldn't shed blood for it. To some, their very presence in the current Liverpool team is an insult to those who have gone before them and, on the evidence of last night and far too many games in recent weeks, it would be impossible to disagree with that.

But then that goes for the club as a whole, because a club which is run well produces a team which plays well. It is a simple equation which served Liverpool incredibly well throughout their glory years and one which they seem to have forgotten as they stumble around from one crisis to the next.

A year ago yesterday, Liverpool beat West Ham but lost the affections of DIC.

If last night's reversal signals those fortunes are about to be reversed it might just stop Liverpool's kamikaze descent towards implosion.

He's spot on, as usual.