Sport Liverpool Football Club

[ras el hanout]

Yeah, let's get him.

[mop]

I don't know, just because he did once doesn't mean he'll do it again.

Also, my veiw of him has been severely tarnished after his dealings with that scum fuck Russian.

While I'm an Arsenal fan and my veiw on Liverpool isn't really worth that much as I'm nowhere near as invested in the club as the rest of you (obvisouly) I still think it's a tad ridiculous to call for Rafa's head just now.

What would piss me off\worry me most would be the way the yanks are dealing with your club. That shit would break my heart if it was happening at Arsenal.

[ras el hanout]

I don't know, just because he did once doesn't mean he'll do it again.

Also, my veiw of him has been severely tarnished after his dealings with that scum fuck Russian.

While I'm an Arsenal fan and my veiw on Liverpool isn't really worth that much as I'm nowhere near as invested in the club as the rest of you (obvisouly) I still think it's a tad ridiculous to call for Rafa's head just now.

What would piss me off\worry me most would be the way the yanks are dealing with your club. That shit would break my heart if it was happening at Arsenal.

I think the fans of all the teams in the top half of the table hope we keep Rafa.

The shit with the owners, well, all we can do is wait and see with that.

[dogsout]

Well that's Ferguson, Wenger or possibly Mourinho then, there's nobody else proven to be a exceptional Premiership manager. So we're going to have to take a punt. If we could get Sven that would be groovy but if not then, I dunno, I mean, it's not my job to pick them. Somebody found Wenger. Let's get the guy who found Wenger to fine one for us.

There are managers currently managing outside the Premiership that I believe can succeed over here. There are some great managers out there that given a lot of money, or a bit of money and some time, could do wonders in the Premiership. Hell, I think there is one managing in this league that hasn't been mentioned as a possible replacement that could possibly do it. I just don't see the point in bringing a new guy in now.

To me it seems like you guys are scared of having to take a step back with a new manager to go forward. You'd rather stay where we are, where we can at least dream about winning the title at the start of the season my word that sounds patronsizing but I don't mean it like that. I just can't saee where you're coming from. And as I've said I don't think we would take a step back with a new manager as Rafa has built a fantastic squad. The new guy will obviously play Crouch with Torres so we'll be better straight away. And he won't rest players at the start of the season so they'll be fresh for the fight for fifth.

You say a new manager will play Torres and Crouch so we'll instantly be better. What if the new guy doesn't know how to play to Fernando's strengths and he reverts back to a player that scores 1 in 3 games? What if the new guy doesn't rate some of Rafa's signings that have become key players for us? He'll want his own players, that suit his own system. These players have been brought here to do a job in Rafa's system, there's nothing to say that a new guy will be able to work with them in the same way. There is of course a chance that a better motivator could get more out of the team, but I struggle to think of a manager that could do it and also match Benitez tactically.

I've been thinking about this Rafa business A LOT lately. It's a strangely Liverpool thing, this adoring of a manager. I mean, it seemed to start with Houllier, this singing of his name and everything, now Rafa gets it. Do other teams sing their manager's name as much as we do? I don't think so, not even Man U with the best manager around. It's like we're waiting for the Messiah to get us up to the top, and after we pick our Messiah by golly we stick with him no matter how bad he fucks up. Somebody was saying Rafa should get at least as long as Houllier, but didn't it turn out we had Houllier too long? Roy Evans never got his name sang. I mean, it's good, obviously, to love the manager, but, you know, I mean.

Shankly, Paisley, Fagan and Kenny were all adored. We still sing about them all in every game. People talk about doing things the Liverpool way; showing patience in, and giving support to your manager is a big part of that. It's something we've historically done differently to other clubs and it is something we are famous for. Many of us think that Rafa deserves our support and our patience because he has earned it, not just by being Liverpool manager but with his actions in and outside of the technical area. His humility and class are refreshing traits in these days of Sky fueled hyperbole, armchair managers and 'I want it all and I want it yesterday' fans.

He is a proven world class manager and he has won us some trophies. He deserves the chance to get us where he believes he can get us, and where we want to be. For the first time I am having doubts over his ability to do this, but unless we can bring in somebody else that will give us a better chance of achieving our aims, and the board are prepared to back them, I see no point in changing things now.

[Kelthink]

For previous seasons Rafa has gone from strength to strength at the very final whistle over the previous season. This season has been an anomaly, and if anyone doesn't know what the variable is that's causing that anomaly, then they shouldn't really be one to say we should be removing the manager.

[ras el hanout]

For previous seasons Rafa has gone from strength to strength at the very final whistle over the previous season. This season has been an anomaly, and if anyone doesn't know what the variable is that's causing that anomaly, then they shouldn't really be one to say we should be removing the manager.

What?

[ras el hanout]

Shankly, Paisley, Fagan and Kenny were all adored. We still sing about them all in every game. People talk about doing things the Liverpool way; showing patience in, and giving support to your manager is a big part of that. It's something we've historically done differently to other clubs and it is something we are famous for. Many of us think that Rafa deserves our support and our patience because he has earned it, not just by being Liverpool manager but with his actions in and outside of the technical area. His humility and class are refreshing traits in these days of Sky fueled hyperbole, armchair managers and 'I want it all and I want it yesterday' fans.

He is a proven world class manager and he has won us some trophies. He deserves the chance to get us where he believes he can get us, and where we want to be. For the first time I am having doubts over his ability to do this, but unless we can bring in somebody else that will give us a better chance of achieving our aims, and the board are prepared to back them, I see no point in changing things now.

It's not so much adoring, I mean, that's entirely natural. But, for example, the way you talk about Rafa, class and humilty, what is that? Where did he do that? He insulted Everton in the same way Mourinho insulted us. But we don't care because we hate Everton.

To me he seems like a very very stubborn man who never admits to making mistakes. I don't mind that though, I like the guy, he's cool. I don't mind him not admitting to making mistakes. I do mind him making the mistakes, over and over. I mentioned it before but he changed the team 99 times in a row and then when all the papers were loving it he kept the same team for the 100th. I don't need to tell you the odds of that happening by chance (100-1) I think. That's just look at me and how smart I am. Not the odds working out, I mean Rafa.

I don't see any real point changing things now. He'll probably win the CL, but even if he does and we're miles behind then we should replace him in the summer or keep him and he can do out CL managing.

[dogsout]

It's not so much adoring, I mean, that's entirely natural. But, for example, the way you talk about Rafa, class and humilty, what is that? Where did he do that? He insulted Everton in the same way Mourinho insulted us. But we don't care because we hate Everton.

No he didn't. Did you see the interview? He said something along the lines of "when a smaller team comes to Anfield you expect them to try to contain you". That isn't a dig at them, that's a fact, they are a smaller club than us.

Usually when asked about the opposition he always gives them a lot of respect and if he can't he says he'd prefer to talk about the game. Do you not read the pre-match program? Do you watch or listen to any of the interviews he does? He's done some fantastic interviews for Spanish radio and he always comes across as a humble guy. Didn't you hear about him being approached in Germany by a set of fans the day before the Leverkusen game and asked to have a drink with them, which he did! He always stops to talk to fans, he's always smiling and he's just a humble man.

To me he seems like a very very stubborn man who never admits to making mistakes. I don't mind that though, I like the guy, he's cool. I don't mind him not admitting to making mistakes. I do mind him making the mistakes, over and over. I mentioned it before but he changed the team 99 times in a row and then when all the papers were loving it he kept the same team for the 100th. I don't need to tell you the odds of that happening by chance (100-1) I think. That's just look at me and how smart I am. Not the odds working out, I mean Rafa.

Or maybe he doesn't care about what the papers say. Maybe he picks the team that he believes is the one that can do a job on the day and he doesn't keep a tally of how many changes in a row he has made. If he wanted to say "look at me and how smart I am" he could come out and say it. He could've insinuated it when he was asked how he turned the team around in Istanbul, but he didn't. He just smiled and said he told them to keep going, that the players were fantastic.

That's an odd thing to criticise him for anyway. He's stubborn because he has full faith in his own ability and his own methods that he has developed and used over the years. The same way Wenger kept the faith in his group of kids when everyone was saying it couldn't work. The same way Ferguson kept faith in Ronaldo when everyone (United fans not included) was saying he was just a show pony, full of tricks and no end product, that could never replace Beckham. Or the way he put his faith in playing a system with no out and out centre forward this season, the apparent reason for their poor start to the season which saw some United fans on this very forum saying "season over" in September.

I think loads of managers make decisions that we as fans think are mental but who are we to question them? They stand or fall by those decisions, Rafa wouldn't do something unless he flt it was best for the team. Obviously he could be completely wrong, and maybe you're right and he'll never get it right in the league but I think I'd like to wait and see rather than cut our losses and start again.

I forgot to ask where you got this from:

Rafa's already had twice the money Houllier had.

That's not even close to being true.

[dogsout]

Hey, ramone. You've got me thinking. If you had to draw up a shortlist for Rafa's replacement (let's say 5 names), who would make it? I'm not trying to bait you here, just genuinely interested. I'm guessing Sven would be top but who else would make it?

[ras el hanout]

Or maybe he doesn't care about what the papers say. Maybe he picks the team that he believes is the one that can do a job on the day and he doesn't keep a tally of how many changes in a row he has made. If he wanted to say "look at me and how smart I am" he could come out and say it. He could've insinuated it when he was asked how he turned the team around in Istanbul, but he didn't. He just smiled and said he told them to keep going, that the players were fantastic.

That's an odd thing to criticise him for anyway. He's stubborn because he has full faith in his own ability and his own methods that he has developed and used over the years. The same way Wenger kept the faith in his group of kids when everyone was saying it couldn't work. The same way Ferguson kept faith in Ronaldo when everyone (United fans not included) was saying he was just a show pony, full of tricks and no end product, that could never replace Beckham. Or the way he put his faith in playing a system with no out and out centre forward this season, the apparent reason for their poor start to the season which saw some United fans on this very forum saying "season over" in September.

I think loads of managers make decisions that we as fans think are mental but who are we to question them? They stand or fall by those decisions, Rafa wouldn't do something unless he flt it was best for the team. Obviously he could be completely wrong, and maybe you're right and he'll never get it right in the league but I think I'd like to wait and see rather than cut our losses and start again.

Hey, I do think he's a nice guy. I kinda feel sorry for him, but he'll be a massive success again back in Spain where he understands the league.

I think it was the players than turned around that match rather than any team talk. Let's not forget here that he was also the manager who put a team out that three nil down by half time. Enforced changes and all that.

He's stubborn and it would be a odd thing to criticise him for if it worked. It doesn't work. People don't criticise Ferguson for his stubborness because he gets the results. Ronaldo looked awesome from the get go, what loony suggested getting rid of him?

And wait and see - how long? You said yourself if we were way behind at the end of this season it might be time for a change. So, what, one more season? Two more? How long do we have to keep him before anybody doubting him will be accused of wanted our club to go the way of Newcastle. Aren't we always going to think he might do it next year? How many years of "Rafa Rues Missed Chances"?

[ras el hanout]

Hey, ramone. You've got me thinking. If you had to draw up a shortlist for Rafa's replacement (let's say 5 names), who would make it? I'm not trying to bait you here, just genuinely interested. I'm guessing Sven would be top but who else would make it?

Sven

Mourihno

Daglish

McAllister

Paul Ince

[ras el hanout]

That's not even close to being true.

It might not be, I read it somewhere, but it wasn't even relevant anyway.

Rafa has had an enormous amount of money though, we've got to stop thinking as ourselves as the paupers of the league, we spend far more than most.

[dogsout]

I think it was the players than turned around that match rather than any team talk. Let's not forget here that he was also the manager who put a team out that three nil down by half time. Enforced changes and all that.

He also made various tactical changes to the team at half time. In Gerrard's own words he made them believe they could do it. How many managers would change the team to 3-5-2 after the battering we got in that first half? He played his part that night.

He's stubborn and it would be a odd thing to criticise him for if it worked. It doesn't work. People don't criticise Ferguson for his stubborness because he gets the results. Ronaldo looked awesome from the get go, what loony suggested getting rid of him?

He took a couple of years to settle and looked nothing more than a show pony at first. Seriously, his success was far from preordained or guaranteed. It's only over the last couple of seasons that he has really started to repay Ferguson's faith in him (in spades ).

And wait and see - how long? You said yourself if we were way behind at the end of this season it might be time for a change. So, what, one more season? Two more? How long do we have to keep him before anybody doubting him will be accused of wanted our club to go the way of Newcastle. Aren't we always going to think he might do it next year? How many years of "Rafa Rues Missed Chances"?

We could still finish relatively close to the leaders. I suppose.

I'd argue that given all of the off-field bullshit this year, another year shouldn't be out of the question. I realise you don't subscribe to the thinking that the players have been affected but I would argue that they have, and the manager has as well. People forget that at the start of this season he said it may still be too early for a challenge. I'm not saying that our current position is acceptable, far from it. But I do feel that he should be given the benefit of one more year. Although, as I said: if he is replaced by someone of real quality at the end of this season, someone who is going to be backed, then I won't protest too much. However, the likelihood of this occurring seems minimal to me.

[ras el hanout]

Although it seems Rafa has spent more in 3/4 years than Houllier did in 6. So that's nearly twice as much per year, I guess. Which is remotely like what I said.

[dogsout]

It might not be, I read it somewhere, but it wasn't even relevant anyway.

Rafa has had an enormous amount of money though, we've got to stop thinking as ourselves as the paupers of the league, we spend far more than most.

I bet you he has had far less than you think he has. Especially, if you think he's spent anything like double of what Houllier did. He's actually spent less than Houllier did, and bought far better with it.

We aren't the paupers of the league but when you compare our actual spending under Rafa with that of Man U and Chelsea in the same period, as well as comparing the difference in squads when he arrived, you can't argue with the view that he shouldn't be expected to win the league. I do feel that we are underachieving, though, don't get me wrong. And once again: If we can find someone to do a better job, then we obviously should. I'm not sure we can, though.

Although it seems Rafa has spent more in 3/4 years than Houllier did in 6. So that's nearly twice as much per year, I guess. Which is remotely like what I said.

His net spending has been lower than Ged's.

[ras el hanout]

I'd argue that given all of the off-field bullshit this year, another year shouldn't be out of the question. I realise you don't subscribe to the thinking that the players have been affected but I would argue that they have, and the manager has as well. People forget that at the start of this season he said it may still be too early for a challenge. I'm not saying that our current position is acceptable, far from it. But I do feel that he should be given the benefit of one more year. Although, as I said: if he is replaced by someone of real quality at the end of this season, someone who is going to be backed, then I won't protest too much. However, the likelihood of this occurring seems minimal to me.

I think we're going to be further behind the leaders than we are now but you never know. And yeah, this owner stuff has muddied the waters but we really haven't got worse since this all broke, I mean, it's not like we're really bad, it's just that we're just the same.

And we're only gassing, I mean, it doesn't mean anything at the end of the day.

I hope Rafa can turn it. But he won't, But I hope he does. That would be easier for everyone.

[ras el hanout]

I bet you he has had far less than you think he has. Especially, if you think he's spent anything like double of what Houllier did. He's actually spent less than Houllier did, and bought far better with it.

We aren't the paupers of the league but when you compare our actual spending under Rafa with that of Man U and Chelsea in the same period, as well as comparing the difference in squads when he arrived, you can't argue with the view that he shouldn't be expected to win the league. I do feel that we are underachieving, though, don't get me wrong. And once again: If we can find someone to do a better job, then we obviously should. I'm not sure we can, though.

His net spending has been lower than Ged's.

Houllier spent 110m and recouped 50m odd. Rafa's spent 120 and recouped 50 odd.

[ras el hanout]

And Houllier bought some great players, a lot of stinkers but some great ones, much like Rafa.

Hamman, Hypia, MacAllister, Finnan and probably some others.

[ras el hanout]

Cisse. B)

[dogsout]

Houllier spent 110m and recouped 50m odd. Rafa's spent 120 and recouped 50 odd.

Houllier's net spend was: 59,825,000.

Rafa's has been: 56,920,000.

[Guest]

See! WRONG DOGSOUT! Rafa has spent more. IN YOUR FACE.

[ras el hanout]

Houllier's net spend was: 59,825,000.

Rafa's has been: 56,920,000.

Man, tough crowd. Okay, let's not split hairs! Rafa spent more in less time, on that we can agree! And we should take £14m off Houllier's as he never had a chance to unleash the awesome Djbril Cisse.

[dogsout]

And Houllier bought some great players, a lot of stinkers but some great ones, much like Rafa.

Hamman, Hypia, MacAllister, Finnan and probably some others.

I'd argue that Reina, Alonso, Torres, Agger and Arbeloa is more impressive. Babel and Lucas still to come through. Players like Crouch and Momo that can be sold on for a profit.

He's had a few stinkers, although they were all mostly cheap and/or transitional signings. Kuyt's value has now probably gone down to 2/3s what we paid for him but for the most part he's got us turning a profit on player sales now and in a position that we can concentrate on adding quality to the team, rather than quantity to the squad.

[dogsout]

Man, tough crowd. Okay, let's not split hairs! Rafa spent more in less time, on that we can agree! And we should take £14m off Houllier's as he never had a chance to unleash the awesome Djbril Cisse.

True. But he did saddle us with a player that he had clearly over paid for and Rafa had a job of getting a decent fee for.

See! WRONG DOGSOUT! Rafa has spent more. IN YOUR FACE.

...

[ras el hanout]

I'd argue that Reina, Alonso, Torres, Agger and Arbeloa is more impressive.

Would you? Not much in it if you ask me. Hamman was AWESOME. Even Dudek was great for a while. Anyway, I wasn't even arguing, Rafa's built a great squad but he can't get them to play. That's my problem in the shell of a nut.

[ras el hanout]

True. But he did saddle us with a player that he had clearly over paid for and Rafa had a job of getting a decent fee for.

We'll never know, alas, the Auxerre fella, Albert Roux, was talking the other day about how Rafa fucked up Cisse. I reckon Houllier might have got the best out of him, by playing him as a striker.

I mean, we surely must doubt Rafa's handling of strikers after the way he's fucked up all of ours, bar Torres, and there's still time for him to do that.

[dogsout]

Would you? Not much in it if you ask me. Hamman was AWESOME. Even Dudek was great for a while. Anyway, I wasn't even arguing, Rafa's built a great squad but he can't get them to play. That's my problem in the shell of a nut.

Didi was indeed awesome. Dudek was never a patch on Pepe. Ever. Gary Mac, was great while he lasted and Hyypia was probably Ged's best buy. Finnan didn't start playing well until the January of Rafa's first season. But, yeah, I get you really. And I agree, he hasn't got them playing well enough in the league over the last two seasons. It's a growing concern of mine, believe me.

[Guest]

Biscan. Worst violet thug midfielder ever!

[dogsout]

We'll never know, alas, the Auxerre fella, Albert Roux, was talking the other day about how Rafa fucked up Cisse. I reckon Houllier might have got the best out of him, by playing him as a striker.

I think Cisse would have been a success under Ged. Definitely. He didn't work hard enough for Rafa and that ultimately cost him. Well that and he was unlucky with injuries and never really adapted to the Premiership.

I mean, we surely must doubt Rafa's handling of strikers after the way he's fucked up all of ours, bar Torres, and there's still time for him to do that.

I don't. I was pleased with Kuyt's contribution last season and have been surprised by his form this year. He's said that he's been affected by the death of his father, though, who am I to question that?

Crouch has definitely improved under Rafa and although I feel that he should be given more of a chance than he has been this season, I have been frustrated by him this season. I don't know. Up until recently I thought we had outgrown him but now I'm not so sure. If we played a more expansive game than we do I think a partnership of him and Torres could be ridiculous. I can't see that ever happening under Rafa, though.

As for Torres, I can't stress this enough: Rafa has changed this boy's game up. He plays to his strengths and Torres as much himself. His handling of him so far has been excellent. I see no reason why that should change.

He also had Mista looking like a world class player at Valencia... Mista.

[dogsout]

Sven

Mourihno

Daglish

McAllister

Paul Ince

I'm guessing the last two are wind ups and the second and third are highly unlikely. I won't comment on Sven because he's doing well so far but I'm not quite convinced. Wherever he's been he's had fucking loads to spend as well. Mourinho is pretty unlikely and has been discussed to death.

I think mine would look like this (in no particular order):

Hiddink - Very underrated manager. Brilliant motivator and tactician. Exponent of attacking football but knows how to get teams to play to their strengths.

O'Neill - Still young, knows the English game and is a great motivator. His teams generally play fast counter-attacking football that's easy on the eye.

Hitzfeld - He'll probably head to Switzerland so is unrealistic.

Lippi - Has an amazing record both at club level and international, his teams play a similar style to Benitez's, though; overly cautious.

Mourinho - Arrogant and would make us hated the world over, he'd probably bring success with him, mind.

Probably.