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Stilly

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Takizawa

Takizawa

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Anyway, as a Liverpool i've found Voronin a little disappointing but I didn't really have any expectations. He has shown his qualities on a few occasions and i'm sure Rafa wouldn't pick him if he wasn't doing the business in training so I don't know what it is. If things don't improve then yes he wasn't a great signing, much like Kezman, except we didn't pay for Voronin.

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ras el hanout

ras el hanout

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Anyway, as a Liverpool i've found Voronin a little disappointing but I didn't really have any expectations. He has shown his qualities on a few occasions and i'm sure Rafa wouldn't pick him if he wasn't doing the business in training so I don't know what it is. If things don't improve then yes he wasn't a great signing, much like Kezman, except we didn't pay for Voronin.

Rafa Benitez is a very stubborn man. He'll stick with his stategy no matter what. This would be fine if his strategy worked.

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Guest

Guest

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My take is Rafa has roughly spent as much as Ferguson, the problem is it's been £6M here, £8M there on second choice players. Ferguson has been able to identify a player and get him. They've paid more, but bought fewer players of a much higher quality. £27M on Rooney... Crouch, Morientes, Kuyt, Bellamy cost broadly the same, are they better players? Was Cisse a Houllier signing? I think you can look through the team and find things like this.

I'm genuinely intrigued.

I think we were still on the problem of "It takes ages for Liverpool to agree a deal", etc. Who else said we didn't want to pay about £5m for a young Ronaldo? Good decision! ;)

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ras el hanout

ras el hanout

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And you know, there's stuff in the paper, Hypia, talking about this off the field talk destabilising things on the field. It's a load of old bollox. We were drawing against lesser teams earlier in the season when everything was peachy. And we got battered by Marseille and beaten by Besiktas so I think blaming the recent stuff is grabbing at straws somewhat.

And that stuff about DIC selling us on. Was that ever confirmed? Wasn't it just paper talk? Because the guy at DIC is definitely a genuine Liverpool fan.

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V3zna

V3zna

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I'm curious, too.

Maybe the manager is shite? If the squad is as strong as they claim (best around was said earlier in the thread), that Liverpool rotate as much as other sides then maybe the manager is fucking up by rotating for the wrong games? Or he's swapping the wrong players?.

What I found interesting was Torres was dropped for Birmingham, a game they drew at home. Yet he played in the League Cup a week later. Fair enough, he's taking the LC seriously. So why the weak team against a much stronger Chelsea side in the LC?

I'm just amazed that the likes of Kuyt (surely the worlds greatest defensive striker) and Benayoun are being defended. That stat still amazes me- Sunderland have obtained more wins and points at home than Liverpool. Those players Disciple listed sure aren't good enough against top sides. You've lost (and conceded) so few and drew so many, it strikes me that those players aren't even good enough to beat average Premiership sides.

My take is Rafa has roughly spent as much as Ferguson, the problem is it's been £6M here, £8M there on second choice players. Ferguson has been able to identify a player and get him. They've paid more, but bought fewer players of a much higher quality. £27M on Rooney... Crouch, Morientes, Kuyt, Bellamy cost broadly the same, are they better players? Was Cisse a Houllier signing? I think you can look through the team and find things like this.

I'm genuinely intrigued.

We lack width / creativity / versatility. Our squad is not complete and there are players there that are blatantly stop gaps. Bennitez has mis-rotated at times but even Ferguson has been caught out over the years doing the same. As for the LC, it's always been very low priority for Benitez and his selections prove that. Chelsea sent out a strong side as they literally had no one else to choose from. Kuyt was a decent striker and his rapid decline from that awesome cameo against West Ham to the player we see today baffles even me. You know by previous posts that I think Benayoun has a role to play for us so there's no point in me addressing that again. Rafa can't spend as much as Fergie. How can you compare our signings of the above players to your managers signings of Carrick (18 million), Rooney (30 million), Tevez (rumoured £25 million + by the time he signs), Anderson (20 million), Nani (20 million), Ferdinand (30 million) etc. We don't have the income to compete with those type of signings, hence the more low budget purchases. Cisse was a Houiller signing btw.

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phresh

phresh

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How can you compare our signings of the above players to your managers signings of Carrick (18 million), Rooney (30 million), Tevez (rumoured £25 million + by the time he signs), Anderson (20 million), Nani (20 million), Ferdinand (30 million) etc. We don't have the income to compete with those type of signings, hence the more low budget purchases. Cisse was a Houiller signing btw.

Slightly OTT on the transfer prices there (Nani and Anderson were about 30 in total and a good portion of that will be performance related), but a certain amount of that money comes from players that have been sold on. £28 million from Beckham, £15 million from Obi Mikel (thank god he didn't come), £14 million (ish) for Van Nistelroy and Veron, the list goes on. When was the last time Liverpool sold a player for a decent amount of cash?

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Guest

Guest

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Slightly OTT on the transfer prices there (Nani and Anderson were about 30 in total and a good portion of that will be performance related), but a certain amount of that money comes from players that have been sold on. £28 million from Beckham, £15 million from Obi Mikel (thank god he didn't come), £14 million (ish) for Van Nistelroy and Veron, the list goes on. When was the last time Liverpool sold a player for a decent amount of cash?

Owen? ;)

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Kelthink

Kelthink

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And you know, there's stuff in the paper, Hypia, talking about this off the field talk destabilising things on the field. It's a load of old bollox. We were drawing against lesser teams earlier in the season when everything was peachy. And we got battered by Marseille and beaten by Besiktas so I think blaming the recent stuff is grabbing at straws somewhat.

And that stuff about DIC selling us on. Was that ever confirmed? Wasn't it just paper talk? Because the guy at DIC is definitely a genuine Liverpool fan.

Well, the disruption to the team has occured since November, it would seem. We've clearly played below par for a while and it's obvious there's been a 'something' disturbing the team for a while.

And about players not being up to 'the right quality', we still live in an age where one or two players really make the difference to a team - Man U really need Ronaldo, Arsenal really need Fabregas and Hleb, Chelsea are far better with Drogba and Terry (although they usually just buy players to replace injured players so that doesn't mean much there). We've had the media harping on about us being a two man team in Gerrard and Torres but we haven't exactly been getting great results recently, have we? Stupid fuckwit journos.

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Guest

Guest

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It's quite interesting to note all the gnashing and annoyance that went over the Man Utd sale/debt. And now they're turning a profit, and have signed some expensive/good players (rubbish Carrick aside), who seems to care!

The Glazers got it right then...? Thus far?

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Kelthink

Kelthink

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Slightly OTT on the transfer prices there (Nani and Anderson were about 30 in total and a good portion of that will be performance related), but a certain amount of that money comes from players that have been sold on. £28 million from Beckham, £15 million from Obi Mikel (thank god he didn't come), £14 million (ish) for Van Nistelroy and Veron, the list goes on. When was the last time Liverpool sold a player for a decent amount of cash?

Beckham - a loss in potential merchandising stuff, that was possibly a bad sale

Obi Mikel - does that really count? More of Chelsea saying 'alright, he's legally your player, but we'll pay you £whatever 'cause we really want him

Van Nistelroy - Bought for £19 million, sold for £12 million. Still good business, mind

Veron - Bought for £28 million, sold for £14 million. That's not good business.

;)

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rjpageuk

rjpageuk

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If you would look back further than a couple of months, you'd find that Pizarro's pedigree is way stronger than Voronin's. Also if Pizarro had started as many games as Voronin this season, who's to say he wouldn't have made a stronger contribution?

Pizarro might not have started quite as many games as Vorinon this season but in all competitions Pizarro has appeared 24 times for Chelsea and Vorinon has appeared only 21 times.

They have played roughly the same amount of football.

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V3zna

V3zna

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It's quite interesting to note all the gnashing and annoyance that went over the Man Utd sale/debt. And now they're turning a profit, and have signed some expensive/good players (rubbish Carrick aside), who seems to care!

The Glazers got it right then...? Thus far?

There's possibly a bit of spin involved with the Utd financial figures. Did the figures include the debt repayments? Utd have a massive stadium that is sold out every week. The Glazers put the ticket prices up and changed the way they where purchased. It would be hard not to make money out of Man Utd. What I found far more surprising is Arsenal. The Emirates has very quickly turned them into a cash juggernaut and Wenger really could spend a lot more if he needed to. We need to aspire to the Arsenal template but at this rate we will be stuck in Anfield for the next decade.

As for Carrick he was the final piece of the jigsaw that enabled Utd to get the league title back. He's far from rubbish.

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bowser123

bowser123

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How can you compare our signings of the above players to your managers signings of Carrick (18 million), Rooney (30 million), Tevez (rumoured £25 million + by the time he signs), Anderson (20 million), Nani (20 million), Ferdinand (30 million) etc.

Well, for starters, Nani and Anderson didn't cost that. It could rise to that, but it depends on lots of factors. £25M for both is apparently what's been spent for both. I'd suggest that if both fulfill the conditions (basically, both play lots and Utd win everything), it's more than worth it. Especially as they'll be there for years. It's hard to know for certain as everybody says something different, I'm trusting the MEN as they're normally spot on.

What I said was Rafa has spent as much as Ferguson, broadly. I said Ferguson has spent more in one go, but LFC have bought many that equal a similar amount. What I also said was we've got first choice players, you've signed second.

I read he'd (edit for clarity- Rafa) signed 32 players for £140M. Obviously he's sold players too.

This season Smith, Heinze, Rossi and Richardson were sold for broadly £30M. He's also sold youth players for half a million here, a million there. Factor that £30M+ into the amount spent on those two youngsters and Hargreaves.

I'm not sure why you're including Tevez as nothing will be spent next season bar him, whereas I bet LFC will spend as much, practically that on Mascherano alone.

Last season he bought Carrick, but made a profit by selling Ruud and Obi Wan Kenobi. Season before that he bough Evra and Vidic for £12M. Season before that was VDS and Park, I think for around £8M. I'm sure there was somebody else, too.

That was the great trick the goons in charge pulled this season- they bought players in one go at the start. Everyone thought wow, they've spent lots. What people didn't see was the shitload coming back in the club. The Glazers have spent very little in the time they've been here, they've just been very clever.

Rio was already at Utd when Rafa joined, I think Rooney was too? Or did Benitez join the same season? Basically, if you're going to include Rio and possibly Rooney, then play fair and include Houlliers buys.

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SomeNaiveChump

SomeNaiveChump

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Pizarro might not have started quite as many games as Vorinon this season but in all competitions Pizarro has appeared 24 times for Chelsea and Vorinon has appeared only 21 times.

They have played roughly the same amount of football.

In all comps Voronin has played 2,011 minutes (23 starts, 8 sub apps) and Pizarro 776 (6 starts, 14 sub apps).

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rjpageuk

rjpageuk

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In all comps Voronin has played 2,011 minutes and Pizarro 776.

Where are you getting these from? According to soccernet Pizarro has started 9 games for Chelsea this season and appeared 15 times as sub. Surely he would have more than 776 if that was the case?

And Vorinon has started 15 and come on as sub 6 times, which is impossible if he has played 2011 minutes of football.

bowser123 - when Rafa arrived Man U were a lot better than Liverpool so it is hardly surprising you only needed one or two players to complete your squad. Liverpool needed a lot of players. Some have worked, some havent.

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rjpageuk

rjpageuk

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Over 800 of the minutes attributed to Vorinon there appear to be for international performances.

It also seems to have missed out both players Carling cup appearances (3 for Pizarro and 1 for Vorinon).

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V3zna

V3zna

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Well, for starters, Nani and Anderson didn't cost that. It could rise to that, but it depends on lots of factors. £25M for both is apparently what's been spent for both. I'd suggest that if both fulfill the conditions (basically, both play lots and Utd win everything), it's more than worth it. Especially as they'll be there for years. It's hard to know for certain as everybody says something different, I'm trusting the MEN as they're normally spot on.

What I said was Rafa has spent as much as Ferguson, broadly. I said Ferguson has spent more in one go, but LFC have bought many that equal a similar amount. What I also said was we've got first choice players, you've signed second.

I read he'd (edit for clarity- Rafa) signed 32 players for £140M. Obviously he's sold players too.

This season Smith, Heinze, Rossi and Richardson were sold for broadly £30M. He's also sold youth players for half a million here, a million there. Factor that £30M+ into the amount spent on those two youngsters and Hargreaves.

I'm not sure why you're including Tevez as nothing will be spent next season bar him, whereas I bet LFC will spend as much, practically that on Mascherano alone.

Last season he bought Carrick, but made a profit by selling Ruud and Obi Wan Kenobi. Season before that he bough Evra and Vidic for £12M. Season before that was VDS and Park, I think for around £8M. I'm sure there was somebody else, too.

That was the great trick the goons in charge pulled this season- they bought players in one go at the start. Everyone thought wow, they've spent lots. What people didn't see was the shitload coming back in the club. The Glazers have spent very little in the time they've been here, they've just been very clever.

Rio was already at Utd when Rafa joined, I think Rooney was too? Or did Benitez join the same season? Basically, if you're going to include Rio and possibly Rooney, then play fair and include Houlliers buys.

You are not seeing my point. Liverpool FC just cannot spend £30 million on a footballer like Utd can. Torres is by far our costliest signing ever at £20 million. We do not generate enough money to compete for signatures of players that will undoubtedly succeed like Rooney. Benitez has to go for players that potentially might turn out good. For every shrewd signing like Arbeloa we have to put up with a flop like Bellamy. As you say we are signing second choices as we can't financially compete. Our stadium is half the size of yours and our merchandise department has been seriously mis-managed for years. Without Benitez we would be much worse off. Without him at the helm we would not have Torres, Mascherano, Alonso etc at the club. I'm thankful for these players at least.

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SomeNaiveChump

SomeNaiveChump

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Over 800 of the minutes attributed to Vorinon there appear to be for international performances.

It also seems to have missed out both players Carling cup appearances (3 for Pizarro and 1 for Vorinon).

True upon closer inspection, but you still don't arrive at roughly the same playing time at all. Especially as for Pizarro the vast majority of it has been as a late substitute.

It's certainly true that he's been pretty much ineffectual at Chelsea though. About as useful as Voronin has been for Liverpool. But he has some record of having played with success for a massive club in the past. Voronin has no such pedigree.

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