Sport Liverpool Football Club

[ras el hanout]

Rafa has definately improved the team since Houllier. This is made clear if you remove the eroneous result - Chelsea. Since Abrahmovich's take over, Chelsea have gone from a UEFA Cup placed team to a Champions's League placed team due to their abnormal expenditure. It's only fair to compare Rafa's Liverpool and Houllier's Liverpool to Man Utd and Arsenal. Ergo if Chelsea were removed then Liverpool have finished 2nd two season's running.

Unfortunately for Rafa though, Chelsea cannot simply be removed in RL so even though 'Pool have shown an improvement, the competition has improved faster.

That's absolutely priceless.

[rgraves]

Those that say Ferguson and Mourinho do not rotate to a similar extent as Rafa are not backed up by the stats and are speaking out of ignorance.

Are you honestly, hand on heart, telling me that you think Alex Ferguson has rotated his side to the same extent that Rafa has this season? I'm not talking about enforced changes due to suspension/injury, I'm talking about changes made when folks are fully fit and available. I'm talking about being able to confidently predict a starting eleven before a game.

It doesn't matter anyway to be honest, I'm dropping out of this thread because I've had enough of being called ignorant just for daring to have a different opinion. I've not had to do it in any of my posts, but it's certainly been thrown in the other direction far too many times now. Ciao.

[kimble]

Ah, dodgy refs. Put that on the list of excuses.

Did I say dodgy refs? Did I make excuses? I was stating that the results were far from convincing but no, you spin it how you like...

If memory serves me correct. We definitely outplayed Utd until they scored in the 91st minute...was it Ferdinand, I seem to remember his gloating face?

And the Milan free kick was dubious. The game had been 50/50 when Alonso left his leg in...Was the free kick also a deflection?

[ras el hanout]

Did I say dodgy refs? Did I make excuses? I was stating that the results were far from convincing but no, you spin it how you like...

If memory serves me correct. We definitely outplayed Utd until they scored in the 91st minute...was it Ferdinand, I seem to remember his gloating face?

And the Milan free kick was dubious. The game had been 50/50 when Alonso left his leg in...Was the free kick also a deflection?

You said a dodgy free kick.

So it's the mark of a good team to play bad and win, but not when it's against us? What are you saying actually. Milan were worse last year than when we beat them, I thought everybody agreed with this? Yeah, they beat Man U on the way, I don't think we would have seeing as we never have under Benitez. I mean, what are you saying.

[Warszawa]

You said a dodgy free kick.

So it's the mark of a good team to play bad and win, but not when it's against us? What are you saying actually. Milan were worse last year than when we beat them, I thought everybody agreed with this? Yeah, they beat Man U on the way, I don't think we would have seeing as we never have under Benitez. I mean, what are you saying.

FA Cup 2006.

[dogsout]

Are you honestly, hand on heart, telling me that you think Alex Ferguson has rotated his side to the same extent that Rafa has this season? I'm not talking about enforced changes due to suspension/injury, I'm talking about changes made when folks are fully fit and available. I'm talking about being able to confidently predict a starting eleven before a game.

It doesn't matter anyway to be honest, I'm dropping out of this thread because I've had enough of being called ignorant just for daring to have a different opinion. I've not had to do it in any of my posts, but it's certainly been thrown in the other direction far too many times now. Ciao.

I don't need to tell you what I think. If you had researched the subject at hand you wouldn't have to either. The stats tell the whole story here, and the stats say that in the last two seasons they have rotated just as much as him, as far as the Premiership goes anyway.

[ras el hanout]

FA Cup 2006.

Oh yeah, I totally forgot about that. Guess that negates the point I was making.

[Chewylegs]

Jesus, this has got so tedious. To try and move on to more positive things, the more and more I see of Babel, the more I think he's going to set the premership on fire next season, I definitely think Wenger missed a trick on passing him up in the summer. He's pacy, has a shot like a rocket and his use of the ball has improved as the season's gone on, he could form a great partnership with Torres up front next season if he gets to play in that position.

Definitely agree with this. The bloke is going to be amazing. He's only 20!

[ras el hanout]

I don't need to tell you what I think. If you had researched the subject at hand you wouldn't have to either. The stats tell the whole story here, and the stats say that in the last two seasons they have rotated just as much as him, as far as the Premiership goes anyway.

No, the stats say the amount of changes were smiliar.

[Chewylegs]

That's right, my friend. That poor Milan team. Hey, do you think we'd have beaten Man U? I don't.

That makes no sense!

[ras el hanout]

That makes no sense!

Read it again.

[dogsout]

Definitely agree with this. The bloke is going to be amazing. He's only 20!

As I said many moons ago in the Arsenal thread: I fully expect to see him taking the piss out of defenders up and down the country on a regular basis a year or two from now.

I think that Arsenal of last season were not so dissimilar to us this season. They were dominating games but struggling to find that cutting edge to put games to bed. They haven't made many changes to personnel, just given the team time to mature and now it's clicking. It could go the same way for us, players like Lucas and Babel will benefit from the experience they gain this season and are still young and developing. The spine of the squad is brilliant and most of the players in this 'spine' still have the best years of their career ahead of them. The team needs time to gel and grow. I really don't see any reason to panic just yet. Maybe I'll think differently in May but we've still got half a season to go first.

[hercules]

I agree with you there dogsout, Arsenal fired blanks on a regular basis last season but the whole team have had to take on the burden since Henry left and as ppl can see goals are coming from everywhere in our team. Liverpool have alot of players who can potenially score and have alot of youth in their side also so given time to gel, i reckon you can kick arse in the league soon.

[Warszawa]

I agree with you there dogsout, Arsenal fired blanks on a regular basis last season but the whole team have had to take on the burden since Henry left and as ppl can see goals are coming from everywhere in our team. Liverpool have alot of players who can potenially score and have alot of youth in their side also so given time to gel, i reckon you can kick arse in the league soon.

And this is it. And I think Arsenal fans are as well placed as anyone to see this....Arsenal were fucking miles off the pace the last two seasons, finishing fourth both times....now they've blended in just the right way and are on course for a serious title tilt. There is no reason as to why we cannot do the same next season - We definitely won't if we change manager though. We haven't got tons of money to throw at the problem and a new boss would have to undo Rafa's work and start on his own.

[ras el hanout]

Arsenal did take two steps back to go forward. We haven't taken a step back. Apparently we've progressed. And it's not like we've a team full of prospects. Lucas hardly plays. Babel is an exciting prospect. plays sometimes, mostly as a sub. If we had an exciting team full of youngsters then I'd be fine with finishing 4th or 5th as long as the future looked bright. I'd be flipping made up. But that's not the case at all.

Carragher and Hypia in defence. A bunch of not particuarly young jack of all trades around the rest of the pitch and a couple of exciting prospects on the bench. How's that going to help us next season.

Our best player is getting on a bit.

So comparing us to Arsenal is wishful thinking, as is repeating the tired old mantra that it took Ferguson 7 years to get it right.

[kimble]

I think you need some anti-depressants Ramone. Is it always so half empty?

P.s. Please don't reply with some 'i'm a realist' comment as you are not backing up your arguments with any information. You are just beating the same negative drum..

[ras el hanout]

I think you need some anti-depressants Ramone. Is it always so half empty?

P.s. Please don't reply with some 'i'm a realist' comment as you are not backing up your arguments with any information. You are just beating the same negative drum..

Hey, Kimbo, try reading my posts as I've explained pretty well why I feel how I feel.

I mean, the post I made about two above this is a pretty good one. Sure, I guess I could just cheer up and become optimstic, but I don't really see what it will help.

[dam_aks]

Arsenal played good football last year. They were just inexperienced and suffered for it.

Liverpool play crap football and have lots of experience.

Comparing the two is insane.

There is no reason to kid yourself and think we even have the foundations for a Premiership winning side. What is the point?

We play hoof it up the pitch football, a lot of our players can barely pass to each other. We play some kind of Spanish Italian bastardisation of the game but without any style and it just doesn't work. I really cannot fathom the blind optimism of some of the opinions in this thread....

[ras el hanout]

Arsenal played good football last year. They were just inexperienced and suffered for it.

Liverpool play crap football and have lots of experience.

Comparing the two is insane.

There is no reason to kid yourself and think we even have the foundations for a Premiership winning side. What is the point?

We play hoof it up the pitch football, a lot of our players can barely pass to each other. We play some kind of Spanish Italian bastardisation of the game but without any style and it just doesn't work. I really cannot fathom the blind optimism of some of the opinions in this thread....

I think people are confused and think that supporting the team and criticizing the manager are mutually exclusive.

[dogsout]

Arsenal played good football last year. They were just inexperienced and suffered for it.

Liverpool play crap football and have lots of experience.

Comparing the two is insane.

There is no reason to kid yourself and think we even have the foundations for a Premiership winning side. What is the point?

We play hoof it up the pitch football, a lot of our players can barely pass to each other. We play some kind of Spanish Italian bastardisation of the game but without any style and it just doesn't work. I really cannot fathom the blind optimism of some of the opinions in this thread....

How many times have we been outplayed this season? It doesn't have to be pretty, although I would argue that it has been on more than a few occasions this season, it just has to be effective. I think you are missing the point somewhat. If this team is given the time to grow under our manager, it can go places. I'd say we are sill lacking a bit of quality in wide areas, although Babel will go some way to solving this problem when he has adapted to our league and matured a bit as a player.

So many of our key players have their best years ahead of them. I compared it to Arsenal because like them last season, we are controlling teams and looking much the better side but are missing that cutting edge that kills teams off. That will come in time, we've certainly improved in that area this season from last, and a bit more quality in wide areas will go some way to addressing that. You forget that this Arsenal team was tipped by nearly everyone to be battling it out with Spurs for fourth place this season. Can you honestly say you expected to see them having the season they are having?

Too many Liverpool fans get carried away with our club's standing in the grand scheme of things. They think we should be challenging for the title every season and although we'd all love that, you don't jump from third to first over night. It will take time to get us there and I'd rather see this manager given the time I feel he deserves, rather than us bring in an almost certainly inferior manager and have to start all over again building a team in his vision.

[dam_aks]

How many times have we been outplayed? Not a huge amount. We are one of the top six sides in the league and have some very good players. This doesn't mean that we are playing anywhere close to our full potential and doesn't excuse the fact that a lot of the time (rotation or otherwise) we simply play poor football and get a few lucky breaks from it.

Arsenal have quality players that play tactically well together. We have quality players that do not.

Every time I watch Liverpool play I feel ripped off regardless of if we win or lose because we never meet my feelings of potential that the squad clearly has. Tactically speaking Liverpool are a poor side, and unbelievably boring as well.

You say Liverpool "control" teams. I'd say we dominate possession but never really look that threatening. We just hoof the ball forwards again and again and again.

I fully expected Arsenal to out perform us this season by the way...

How many years have we been close to the top? Every season pretty much since we last won the league. We have a consistent position as an "also ran" in the top flight. After this long I don't think it is unreasonable to expect us to perform better. Especially as we have an excellent squad. You know that most of those under performing players (there is a lot of them) when they get sold off will suddenly find form and be excellent again...

[ras el hanout]

We've been outplaying teams and not winning for years. This year we've also been playing badly and not beating teams.

[ras el hanout]

Too many Liverpool fans get carried away with our club's standing in the grand scheme of things.

And please stop these little digs, they're very childish and patronising.

[ras el hanout]

You say Liverpool "control" teams. I'd say we dominate possession but never really look that threatening. We just hoof the ball forwards again and again and again.

We also usually have the most shots on goal and I must admit I too used to take some comfort in that.

How many times have a team had one or two chances against us and scored? Quite a flipping few times.

From three years ago to this preseason to today nothing has changed. It was that preseason game against Portsmaout where I first started thinking "Hang on, this is exacly the same as the last few years but with different players! Perhaps the blame must lie with the manger as it would be unbelievably unlucky if he just bought the players who play in exactly the same wasteul way!"

[V3zna]

From three years ago to this preseason to today nothing has changed.

Changes surely include the fact that from three years ago to now we currently have two undisputable world class players in Torres and Gerrard. Potential world class players in Mascherano, Alonso and Agger. Very bright hopes in Babel and Lucas. Lastly we have a centerback that John Terry said is the best in the Premier League and Franco Baresi said is the best in Europe. That's surely a sign of progress in the past three years and nearly all down to Rafa.

We are not a million miles away from where we should be. For me the signing of someone like Garay, a decent striker in the Torres mould and a versatile wide player (like Quaresma but not him) and we would be where Benitez wants us. If we still fail to get anywhere near a title tilt then it's back to the drawing board for Benitez or his reign ends.

[dogsout]

Changes surely include the fact that from three years ago to now we currently have two undisputable world class players in Torres and Gerrard. Potential world class players in Mascherano, Alonso and Agger. Very bright hopes in Babel and Lucas. Lastly we have a centerback that John Terry said is the best in the Premier League and Franco Baresi said is the best in Europe. That's surely a sign of progress in the past three years and nearly all down to Rafa.

We are not a million miles away from where we should be. For me the signing of someone like Garay, a decent striker in the Torres mould and a versatile wide player (like Quaresma but not him) and we would be where Benitez wants us. If we still fail to get anywhere near a title tilt then it's back to the drawing board for Benitez or his reign ends.

That's the way I see it. Well, that and allowing this team the time to grow into a side capable of challenging. It won't happen overnight.

As I've said before: There are 11 players out on that pitch that can do better. The manager can't take the responsibility for us completely dominating teams but not killing them off. Things like tactical errors and poor substitutions are obviously fair game but it just seems like he's being made a scapegoat by some for our team's lack of a cutting edge at times.

dam_aks, we've won games by big score lines this season, loads of them. That doesn't happen to teams that play boring, shit football. I have been frustrated at the quality of football and overly cautious approach in some games this season. I too have my doubts about Rafa's approach and some of his methods but I think we should give him the time to see it through now, rather than tear it all up and start again with somebody else because Mourinho aside, pretty much anyone we bring in isn't going to match up to him anyway.

It's clear we see things completely differently so I'll not waste my time further trying to explain why I disagree. I'm sick of all the arguing in this thread, it's still only January for fuck's sake. So from now on I'll be doing my best to get back to talking about our club without fueling the fire that has consumed the thread.

[ras el hanout]

Changes surely include the fact that from three years ago to now we currently have two undisputable world class players in Torres and Gerrard. Potential world class players in Mascherano, Alonso and Agger. Very bright hopes in Babel and Lucas. Lastly we have a centerback that John Terry said is the best in the Premier League and Franco Baresi said is the best in Europe. That's surely a sign of progress in the past three years and nearly all down to Rafa.

We are not a million miles away from where we should be. For me the signing of someone like Garay, a decent striker in the Torres mould and a versatile wide player (like Quaresma but not him) and we would be where Benitez wants us. If we still fail to get anywhere near a title tilt then it's back to the drawing board for Benitez or his reign ends.

I've said again and again Rafa has built a brilliant squad, one much better than four years ago. And that is pretty much my problem with him. The team doesn't play better football though, we still come unstuck in games we shouldn't and we still struggle to beat the top teams. That's what I was talking about with the CL. We beat an excellent Milan with a poor squad (traore was playing!) but then failed to beat a worse Milan when we had a much better squad.

At the start of the season we all hoped this would be the season. I think we were all pretty happy with the squad before the season started, I know I was. So to now blame the squad I don't think is fair.

Think of the players that get a slagging. Look at his signings who have flopped. Is it not possible Rafa doesn't motivate his team? The players who have been great under Rafa are great players and you could argue pretty reasonably that they'd be just as great with pretty much any manager. But he fails to get the best out of a lot of good players.

Take Kuyt, he fucking stinks and we'd be lucky to give him away. But before Rafa got his hands on him he was awesome. Rafa didn't get out of Bellamy what Mark Hughes did. Kewell, Pennant, It's all too easy to blame the players and if before the season you were saying the squad wasn't good enough then fair enough. But I thought and think they are good enough.

And, this is just me, I don't think it would be back to the drawing board with a new manager, because the squad is excellent and I think a better motivator would get better out of them. Take Mourihno for example, to say he won what he did just down to money isn't really fair. Obviously the money was a massive part but I think Mourinho can motivate his players better, instill more belief in them, and, as I've said before that's probably the most important part of a manager's job. We all know what a help confidence is. Hicks was absolutely right when he said we didn't look like we believed we could beat Man U. We all though it too, right? And that is Rafa's fault.

[dam_aks]

I agree with that. No doubt.

[larrydavidsanger]

Bit of an ugly game so far today. After a good spell at the start we haven't done much for the majority of the half, saying that though Luton have had a lot of the ball, had a few decent crosses but I don't think Itandje has had to make more than one save yet. I don't see us having too much of a problem, if our finishing improves then we should win.

The pitch seems very compact or is my imagination? What's that they keep shouting at Crouch, "Freeeeeeeeak" is it?

[ras el hanout]

Cheat, I think.