Sport Liverpool Football Club

[dogsout]

Can I quickly highlight what I've said about him going or staying...

... before I carry on.

I do think it's harsh to call people idiots for wanting to see the back of him. His selections must frustrate people at times. As must being halfway through the season and only having 4 wins at home under his belt.

His rotation does annoy me but I just hope it's down to him knowing a lot about football and putting in the right players to suit the opposition. But results and how the game plays out doesn't always seem to reflect that.

But he's been here a while and it's the best squad since I can remember. And now with the new owners I'm hoping he'll be able to nail some of his targets. If, in a couple of seasons, nothing comes of that... then I think it's time for him to bow out.

I agree with all of that. I'm not suggesting that those of the opinion that he should be sacked are idiots. However, many of them are fickle and as for the ones that aren't: I have to wonder what they think could be done to improve the situation. The complete reluctance to acknowledge any progress made or success achieved by some of his doubters doesn't do their argument any favours either, in my opinion.

[Guest]

As far as Man U go, you can also whack on another £30 for Veron.

Chelsea also had him for a bit, and how much was Crespo?

And you've missed off Kuyt who was £10-12m, and surely a few others?

[tyler]

These are the full (current Nov '07) squad costs taken from here (source is Sky Sports)

Chelsea £211.96m

Man United £166.3m

Liverpool £113.4m

Arsenal £66.1m

[Guest]

Arsenal. Blimey. That really is v impressive. Half of what Sunderland spent this season, isnt it?

[kimble]

I think Wenger is so shrewd that the first thing he did at arsenal was sort out the academy and youth scouting. He knew that's where the long term success would come from.

I feel that Benitez is/has done the same. Heighway going is surely a sign that even with his skills in this area, Benitez thought he was maybe still a bit old school in his approach.

To win the premiership you need a team of people that are comfortable on the ball at almost all times and old fashioned English training sessions of playing masses of practice games doesn't achieve that.

Modern football is a serious and deep business, criticising the surface elements that you can see on TV and read in the papers is just pointless. Who the fuck knows what is happening behind the scenes?

[ras el hanout]

I agree with all of that. I'm not suggesting that those of the opinion that he should be sacked are idiots. However, many of them are fickle and as for the ones that aren't: I have to wonder what they think could be done to improve the situation. The complete reluctance to acknowledge any progress made or success achieved by some of his doubters doesn't do there argument any favours either, in my opinion.

What progress? I think it's proved in the points totals that there has been no progress in the Premiership so again, what progress?

And Sven would do better than Rafa.

So, please, tell me the progress that has been made in the Premiership from the 'dark days' of Houllier. I also trust you didn't want Houllier sacked and you wanted him to be given more time. Although I seem to recall you slagging Houllier. Bit of a knee jerk reaction, that, don't you think?

[ras el hanout]

I think Wenger is so shrewd that the first thing he did at arsenal was sort out the academy and youth scouting. He knew that's where the long term success would come from.

I feel that Benitez is/has done the same. Heighway going is surely a sign that even with his skills in this area, Benitez thought he was maybe still a bit old school in his approach.

To win the premiership you need a team of people that are comfortable on the ball at almost all times and old fashioned English training sessions of playing masses of practice games doesn't achieve that.

Modern football is a serious and deep business, criticising the surface elements that you can see on TV and read in the papers is just pointless. Who the fuck knows what is happening behind the scenes?

Well then Rafa should become the director of football as getting the team to play well should really be his first concern.

[rgraves]

http://www.fantasyrafa.com/

[dogsout]

I was one out again; I had Babel instead of Pennant. I'm blatantly signing up for it if he's still here next season.

[DeNeo]

As far as Man U go, you can also whack on another £30 for Veron.

Chelsea also had him for a bit, and how much was Crespo?

And you've missed off Kuyt who was £10-12m, and surely a few others?

I was doing a first 11 for each, not the biggest buys. Felt it was a bit fairer that way, shows how we all stand this season. Though I suppose I was a bit unfair in a couple of choices (putting Shevchenko in for example ).

[Warszawa]

What progress? I think it's proved in the points totals that there has been no progress in the Premiership so again, what progress?

And Sven would do better than Rafa.

So, please, tell me the progress that has been made in the Premiership from the 'dark days' of Houllier. I also trust you didn't want Houllier sacked and you wanted him to be given more time. Although I seem to recall you slagging Houllier. Bit of a knee jerk reaction, that, don't you think?

Did Houllier win a CL and reach another final? Rafa has also showed better league form overall. He's given us our highest total in the Premiership era (higher than our last), and to add to that we're up against tougher opposition now. Houllier had a big task to overhaul Man Utd but ultimately we finished 30 points behind the leaders in his final season and never looked like winning one of the major cups, 2001 aside. It was also clear that Houllier was a beaten, downtrodden man who'd lost the players completely.

You don't get rid of a CL winning manager who is building for the future unless you're an idiot. Wenger hasn't won one of the 'big two' trophies since 2004. Yeah, he's built more than one team but after his first league/cup double Arsenal didn't win ANYTHING until four years later. One could have argued that the initial triumph was a fluke, and I know that there were Arsenal fans wanting him out after he failed to win the league or cup in 2001. How different things could have been if Wenger had been sacked by an impatient board. How different things could've been if Alex Ferguson hadn't been given his fifth season to put the wheels in motion (they finished 2nd after years of mid-table mediocrity), and his sixth to finally win the league. How different things could've been if Liverpool had kept to the tradition of stability rather than bringing in Graeme Souness from outside.

Rafa is up against two clubs with an unprecedented amount of money in Man Utd & Chelsea - one of whom has been built and tweaked over 21 years - and an Arsenal side who he's finished above in the last two seasons, and has actually been vastly more successful than thus far in his tenure as manager - an Arsenal side built and tweaked over a decade of Wenger at the helm. That ain't no easy task. To suggest that "Sven would do better" is ridiculous....let's see how he's doing at the end of the season. Bringing a decent team - and Man City had decent players, even before Sven was given a lot of cash to throw at them - to the top 6 (and breaking the top four come the END of the season) is a lot easier than knocking the cash-rich money men off of the top with less resources than they have at their disposal. Just ask David Moyes or George Burley or Sam Allardyce or Glenn Roeder.

Realistically, Rafa would need to be given double the amount of money Man Utd & Chelsea have to spend for two or three seasons in a row to be legitimately expected to be on their level. Of course, the sensationalist, salacious media and the ignorant, impatient fans would never take note of that, but it's true. I couldn't amass the biggest and best collection of videogames ever by spending half as much on that as someone who wanted the same but had far greater funds at his disposal.

[ras el hanout]

Did Houllier win a CL and reach another final? Rafa has also showed better league form overall. He's given us our highest total in the Premiership era (higher than our last), and to add to that we're up against tougher opposition now. Houllier had a big task to overhaul Man Utd but ultimately we finished 30 points behind the leaders in his final season and never looked like winning one of the major cups, 2001 aside. It was also clear that Houllier was a beaten, downtrodden man who'd lost the players completely.

You don't get rid of a CL winning manager who is building for the future unless you're an idiot. Wenger hasn't won one of the 'big two' trophies since 2004. Yeah, he's built more than one team but after his first league/cup double Arsenal didn't win ANYTHING until four years later. One could have argued that the initial triumph was a fluke, and I know that there were Arsenal fans wanting him out after he failed to win the league or cup in 2001. How different things could have been if Wenger had been sacked by an impatient board. How different things could've been if Alex Ferguson hadn't been given his fifth season to put the wheels in motion (they finished 2nd after years of mid-table mediocrity), and his sixth to finally win the league. How different things could've been if Liverpool had kept to the tradition of stability rather than bringing in Graeme Souness from outside.

Rafa is up against two clubs with an unprecedented amount of money in Man Utd & Chelsea - one of whom has been built and tweaked over 21 years - and an Arsenal side who he's finished above in the last two seasons, and has actually been vastly more successful than thus far in his tenure as manager - an Arsenal side built and tweaked over a decade of Wenger at the helm. That ain't no easy task. To suggest that "Sven would do better" is ridiculous....let's see how he's doing at the end of the season. Bringing a decent team - and Man City had decent players, even before Sven was given a lot of cash to throw at them - to the top 6 (and breaking the top four come the END of the season) is a lot easier than knocking the cash-rich money men off of the top with less resources than they have at their disposal. Just ask David Moyes or George Burley or Sam Allardyce or Glenn Roeder.

Realistically, Rafa would need to be given double the amount of money Man Utd & Chelsea have to spend for two or three seasons in a row to be legitimately expected to be on their level. Of course, the sensationalist, salacious media and the ignorant, impatient fans would never take note of that, but it's true. I couldn't amass the biggest and best collection of videogames ever by spending half as much on that as someone who wanted the same but had far greater funds at his disposal.

When Wenger wasn't winning he was at least challenging, I think that's the important point you've for some reason totally ignored. And don't worry about lack of money, it isn't lack of money that saw us fail to beat Wigan, Birmingham etc, having as we do far more money than them.

And, you know, we're never going to have as much money as Man U, Chelsea and now Arsenal. So what, is that it, we're stuck in 4th or 5th? How about getting a manager that can get the best out of players instead of the worst out of them? How about getting a manager that can motivate a team when it's not in the Champions League? How about getting a manager that the players have confidence in? That's right! I don't believe the players are confident in what they're doing! The manager's biggest job, to instill confidence in his team is where I think Rafa fails. And that's not going to change, you only get one chance to pursuade a group of people to have confidence in you, you continually bollocks it up and it's gone and it isn't coming back.

But it's not that, is it, it's money. You want more money for Rafa to build another squad, Rafa wants more money to build another squad. That will certainly show the players he has that they're capable of winning the title and fill them full of confidence. I think our squad is capable of challenging with the right manager. It's clear to me that Rafa is a beaten, downtrodden man who's lost the players pretty much completely.

I said I think Sven would do a better job. That isn't ridiculous, it's certainly no more ridiculous than suggesting Rafa will get there in the end. Mind you, as you keep clinging onto, it took Fergie seven years so it's almost certainly going to be the same for Rafa.

But please, all you people who love Rafa don't label me and idiot or a knee jerker, I don't laugh at you for burying your heads in the sand. And please don't stop reading this thread just because the team isn't doing as well as we hoped. I mean, Dogsout said he would apologise to me and admit I was right if we weren't challenging for the league this season. We won't be but I never went "I told you so!"

So let's try to discuss this and offer better solutions than to simply give him more money and time.

By the way, Rafa lost last year's CL Final against a poor Milan team, the way you speak getting to a final is the same as winning it! And some would say he fluked the first but not I!

[rgraves]

Realistically, Rafa would need to be given double the amount of money Man Utd & Chelsea have to spend for two or three seasons in a row to be legitimately expected to be on their level. Of course, the sensationalist, salacious media and the ignorant, impatient fans would never take note of that, but it's true. I couldn't amass the biggest and best collection of videogames ever by spending half as much on that as someone who wanted the same but had far greater funds at his disposal.

Two things here:

1) Wenger has built arguably the best side in the league (he's arguably built two or three of them over the years in fact) and not spent anywhere near Man Utd or Chelsea levels. This myth that it's only by spending vast sums of money that you can match Man Utd and Chelsea, is exactly the kind of thinking that I believe led to Hicks & Gillette telling Benitez to just concentrate on getting the best out of what he had, rather than just constantly looking to spend on the 'next big thing'. I'm not saying money does't help (it's obvious that signings like Torres always will), but I *am* saying that Arsenal/Wenger are an absolute, cast-iron, example that big money is not essential.

2) Everyone is entitled to their opinions, and I'm getting more than a little sick of folks being called 'ignorant', or 'impatient', or 'a twat' just because they dare to think differently.

[ras el hanout]

Two things here:

1) Wenger has built arguably the best side in the league (he's arguably built two or three of them over the years in fact) and not spent anywhere near Man Utd or Chelsea levels. This myth that it's only by spending vast sums of money that you can match Man Utd and Chelsea, is exactly the kind of thinking that I believe led to Hicks & Gillette telling Benitez to just concentrate on getting the best out of what he had, rather than just constantly looking to spend on the 'next big thing'. I'm not saying money does't help (it's obvious that signings like Torres always will), but I *am* saying that Arsenal/Wenger are an absolute, cast-iron, example that big money is not essential.

2) Everyone is entitled to their opinions, and I'm getting more than a little sick of folks being called 'ignorant', or 'impatient', or 'a twat' just because they dare to think differently.

It's the knee jerker one I don't get. 4 flipping seasons and they're comparing it to what's happening at Newcastle after a couple of months! (A lot of Newcastle fans didn't want Big Sam in the first place so he was always going to be up against it).

[dogsout]

Two things here:

1) Wenger has built arguably the best side in the league (he's arguably built two or three of them over the years in fact) and not spent anywhere near Man Utd or Chelsea levels. This myth that it's only by spending vast sums of money that you can match Man Utd and Chelsea, is exactly the kind of thinking that I believe led to Hicks & Gillette telling Benitez to just concentrate on getting the best out of what he had, rather than just constantly looking to spend on the 'next big thing'. I'm not saying money does't help (it's obvious that signings like Torres always will), but I *am* saying that Arsenal/Wenger are an absolute, cast-iron, example that big money is not essential.

That's a good point. The only problem being that what Wenger has done is unique, not just in this country, but in world football. There's also the little fact that they've been largely less successful than us since Rafa's arrival and they could still end this season with no silverware. Obviously they look like a fantastic team now but had Wenger not been afforded time in those barren spells they wouldn't be where they are today.

2) Everyone is entitled to their opinions, and I'm getting more than a little sick of folks being called 'ignorant', or 'impatient', or 'a twat' just because they dare to think differently.

I'd never call anyone a twat for daring to think differently. I would call someone a twat if I felt they were behaving like one, though. The same goes for the other 'insults' you've mentioned there. To qualify what I'm saying I'll use examples:

Rotation is used as a stick to beat Rafa with by the ignorant. Many of whom deny that Ferguson and Mourinho rotate to a very similar degree. The same goes for the zonal marking fiasco before it.

The ignorant are saying he is incapable of getting the best out of his players whilst ignoring the fact that Torres is in the best form of his career and has personally said Rafa has been making changes to his game which have helped him. Many of these people didn't even want us to sign Torres, although I'd quite confidently say they had seen very little of him before he joined us. The same goes for any other player that has done well for us: "Well, he's a good player, any manager could do well with him".

The ignorant are solely blaming the manager for poor performances when there are 11 players out on that pitch that can do better.

The impatient are calling for Rafa's head because he has failed to challenge for the league title. Nevermind the fact that it is January and we still have two cup competitions to play for and a (albeit miraculous) good run in the last half of the season would see us making progress.

The impatient are complaining about him not playing the likes of Babel and Lucas enough. Although both players have been involved a fair bit this season already. Forget breaking them in slowly and building their confidence while developing their game. Let's just chuck them in at the deep end and blame Rafa if it all goes wrong for them in the mean time.

The twats are doing all of the above then calling the rest of us mad for not agreeing with them.

I can see why some Liverpool fans have doubts about our manager. I can even see why some of them think he isn't capable of taking us to that next step, I don't agree with them but I can appreciate that they feel that way. I'm sick and tired of people speaking out of ignorance in order to criticise the manager or his supporters and then expecting not to be called ignorant in return.

I'm not labelling you as any of the above, rgraves. I'm simply trying to explain why there has been such hostility directed at some sections of our support.

Rafa isn't infallible and he has made mistakes this season in some games. He can't be held accountable for the team dominating games but not scoring, though. Which he has been by some. He also can't be held accountable for some players playing below par, time and again. Maybe the accusations he faces regarding the confidence he instills in his team are fair. It is hard to say one way or another as he shields the team from a lot of criticism and the way the team plays doesn't necessarily reflect those claims.

[rgraves]

Rotation is used as a stick to beat Rafa with by the ignorant.

Sigh.

No. Rotation is used as a stick to beat Rafa with by people who don't like it. That does not, automatically, make them ignorant. That's my whole point, and it applies to most of your other examples as well.

[dogsout]

Sigh.

No. Rotation is used as a stick to beat Rafa with by people who don't like it. That does not, automatically, make them ignorant. That's my whole point, and it applies to most of your other examples as well.

No. People blame rotation for our failings but ignore the fact that the last two managers to win the league both rotated just as much as Rafa did in those seasons. That is ignorance.

[rgraves]

No. People blame rotation for our failings but ignore the fact that the last two managers to win the league both rotated just as much as Rafa did in those seasons. That is ignorance.

That's simply not a "fact" though - neither of those managers routinely used rotation to the extreme that Rafa does. I'm not saying that in either a positive or negative way, just pointing out that there are fairly clear differences in quite how far he goes with it in comparison to the likes or Mourinho, Ferguson, Wenger et al

[Chewylegs]

Did Houllier win a CL and reach another final? Rafa has also showed better league form overall. He's given us our highest total in the Premiership era (higher than our last), and to add to that we're up against tougher opposition now. Houllier had a big task to overhaul Man Utd but ultimately we finished 30 points behind the leaders in his final season and never looked like winning one of the major cups, 2001 aside. It was also clear that Houllier was a beaten, downtrodden man who'd lost the players completely.

You don't get rid of a CL winning manager who is building for the future unless you're an idiot. Wenger hasn't won one of the 'big two' trophies since 2004. Yeah, he's built more than one team but after his first league/cup double Arsenal didn't win ANYTHING until four years later. One could have argued that the initial triumph was a fluke, and I know that there were Arsenal fans wanting him out after he failed to win the league or cup in 2001. How different things could have been if Wenger had been sacked by an impatient board. How different things could've been if Alex Ferguson hadn't been given his fifth season to put the wheels in motion (they finished 2nd after years of mid-table mediocrity), and his sixth to finally win the league. How different things could've been if Liverpool had kept to the tradition of stability rather than bringing in Graeme Souness from outside.

Rafa is up against two clubs with an unprecedented amount of money in Man Utd & Chelsea - one of whom has been built and tweaked over 21 years - and an Arsenal side who he's finished above in the last two seasons, and has actually been vastly more successful than thus far in his tenure as manager - an Arsenal side built and tweaked over a decade of Wenger at the helm. That ain't no easy task. To suggest that "Sven would do better" is ridiculous....let's see how he's doing at the end of the season. Bringing a decent team - and Man City had decent players, even before Sven was given a lot of cash to throw at them - to the top 6 (and breaking the top four come the END of the season) is a lot easier than knocking the cash-rich money men off of the top with less resources than they have at their disposal. Just ask David Moyes or George Burley or Sam Allardyce or Glenn Roeder.

Realistically, Rafa would need to be given double the amount of money Man Utd & Chelsea have to spend for two or three seasons in a row to be legitimately expected to be on their level. Of course, the sensationalist, salacious media and the ignorant, impatient fans would never take note of that, but it's true. I couldn't amass the biggest and best collection of videogames ever by spending half as much on that as someone who wanted the same but had far greater funds at his disposal.

Just read the last few pages and this is another great post. Mate, you talk a hell of a lot of sense.

[dogsout]

That's simply not a "fact" though - neither of those managers routinely used rotation to the extreme that Rafa does. I'm not saying that in either a positive or negative way, just pointing out that there are fairly clear differences in quite how far he goes with it in comparison to the likes or Mourinho, Ferguson, Wenger et al

Yes it is. Jesus wept, this is what I mean. I posted a massive article about it in here ages ago, they made the same amount of changes as him and the core players (Ronaldo, Rooney and the like for Man U) were rested a similar amount of times as ours (Gerrard, Carra etc). I can't be bothered to go through it all again but you're reinforcing my point. Those that say Ferguson and Mourinho do not rotate to a similar extent as Rafa are not backed up by the stats and are speaking out of ignorance. That's not meant as an insult but it gets very tedious having to keep saying the same things over and over when people aren't prepared to even go and look up the statistics to back their claims up.

Stats are far from the be all and end all of football arguments but as far as this argument goes, they are. All you need to do is look at the amount of changes made per game by the managers in question as well as the names of the players being rotated to see that what I'm saying is correct.

[Chewylegs]

When Wenger wasn't winning he was at least challenging,

Wrong. What happened last year? 4th. Year before? 4th. Year before that? 12 points behind the leaders (sound familiar?)

[Chewylegs]

By the way, Rafa lost last year's CL Final against a poor Milan team, the way you speak getting to a final is the same as winning it! And some would say he fluked the first but not I!

A poor Milan team that absolutely tore apart the Premiership champions last year!!

[DeNeo]

That's simply not a "fact" though - neither of those managers routinely used rotation to the extreme that Rafa does. I'm not saying that in either a positive or negative way, just pointing out that there are fairly clear differences in quite how far he goes with it in comparison to the likes or Mourinho, Ferguson, Wenger et al

There was a good article at the end of last season by Paul Tomkins, comparing our rotation to Utd's, and it was pratically the same number of changes.

[larrydavidsanger]

Jesus, this has got so tedious. To try and move on to more positive things, the more and more I see of Babel, the more I think he's going to set the premership on fire next season, I definitely think Wenger missed a trick on passing him up in the summer. He's pacy, has a shot like a rocket and his use of the ball has improved as the season's gone on, he could form a great partnership with Torres up front next season if he gets to play in that position.

[kimble]

To go from 4th place in the league to winning it does not happen in 1 season.

Losses become draws and draws become wins. Sometimes it's two step forwards one step back....things take time... the higher you rise, the more teams focus and play spoiler tactics against you. The team have to learn to play out of those situations and get the win. It's experience, calmness and confidence. If people have ever played a team sport to some level of competency they will understand this...you don't all just start thinking your neo from the matrix and taking off into the stratosphere. Confidence flows up and down in a team much like it does in a person..

Ignoring the actual result, how many times have you seen Liverpool seriously outplayed this season to the point that they actually really deserve to lose?

Rafa doesn't look like a man out of his depth to me and the players look like they love him. He looks a bit frustrated much as we are. He wants success just as much as us, if not more. It is his life after all.

[ras el hanout]

A poor Milan team that absolutely tore apart the Premiership champions last year!!

That's right, my friend. That poor Milan team. Hey, do you think we'd have beaten Man U? I don't.

[kimble]

Didn't we fair quite well against them but then lose to some dodgy free kick right near the end of time?

This statement applies to both Man Utd and Milan.

...In fact I'm starting to believe you are actually a troll...

[DeNeo]

he could form a great partnership with Torres up front next season if he gets to play in that position.

I do think that's what's going to happen It looks like his most natural position.

[ras el hanout]

Didn't we fair quite well against them but then lose to some dodgy free kick right near the end of time?

This statement applies to both Man Utd and Milan.

...In fact I'm starting to believe you are actually a troll...

Ah, dodgy refs. Put that on the list of excuses.

[ras el hanout]

I do think that's what's going to happen It looks like his most natural position.

It'll be Kuyt and John Hartson, mark my words.