Sport Liverpool Football Club

[Takizawa]

It seems some people want success the Chelsea way, paying stupid money for big players. I'd rather see us spend that money on younger prospects like Mascherano, Lucas and Torres who have a long future with the club.

Just as a side, doesn't the 17m for Mascha include his wages for the duration of his contract? Which would make the fee closer to 10m...

[ras el hanout]

I meant that we were what 20points of the top last year? This year I reckon we will be much much nearer. I said It would take a miracle for us to win it but it doesn't mean we won't be far off. Yeah, I wanted us to be capable this year but unless we beat Chelsea, Man U and Arsenal then we obviously aren't capable.

It vanished before New Year for the last few

What I'm trying to say is I'm still being optimistic. I'm not the type of supporter who enjoys slating my own side!

Thing is Man U are not exactly awesome this year, they've a fair few points fewer than they had this time last year. Chelsea lost the best manager they've ever had and we're still behind them.

And I don't enjoy slating the team or the manager. It depresses me quite a lot. I kinda wish I knew where you guys were coming from with your talk of progress and we have to give him time. Surely that's saying any manager given enough time will be a success which, I don't know, it might be true, I guess.

Where is the progress? SHOW ME THE PROGRESS! We've more points than this time last year? We played the big boys away this time last year. We had them all at home this season. That doesn't make it progress.

As I've said before if by the time Rafa does get it right half the team will be too old.

[ras el hanout]

It seems some people want success the Chelsea way, paying stupid money for big players. I'd rather see us spend that money on younger prospects like Mascherano, Lucas and Torres who have a long future with the club.

Just as a side, doesn't the 17m for Mascha include his wages for the duration of his contract? Which would make the fee closer to 10m...

I'd be surprised if it did include his wages but I have read such a thing.

As for Chelsea, it doesn't look like Grant will win the league this year, Ranieri never won it. It's not all about money.

And Lucas, when is Lucas going to play? How's he going to get real good? He's not that young anymore. He's older than Anderson who unfortunately looked pretty good against us.

[ras el hanout]

AND! instead of worrying about Manu and Arsenal we need to worry about beating teams like Wigan, Birmigham, Portsmouth, Blackburn etc.

[Takizawa]

AND! instead of worrying about Manu and Arsenal we need to worry about beating teams like Wigan, Birmigham, Portsmouth, Blackburn etc.

Agreed, drawing 3/4 games we should have won comfortably (on performance not just cos they're smaller clubs) is what has cost us so far.

The thing I find most frustrating is we always give Chelsea, Arsenal and United a dam good game but never seem to get the result.

[DeNeo]

But there is only 1 Ronaldo, every club in the world would want him.

Ok true, but someone who is almost as effective. Maybe if we had managed to get Simao and Alves our wing play would be better by now.

[Guest]

If Arsenal don't win the league or CL this season, they won't have won either of the 'big two' trophies since before Rafa's arrival at Liverpool. Surely the Frenchman's head would have to be on the guillotine in today's climate!

I dunno, it's not like he's done what every other team has done and spent millions and millions of pounds on players. Liverpool got Torres, Cheslea have bought everyone they can the last few years (And look at Ballack/Terry's wages!), and Man Utd picked up Anderson+Nani for £30, Hargreaves for about what...£15 odd, and how much was useless Carrick of late (although they are reigning champions to be fair).

Considering the business Wenger does, including it seems shipping off Henry at the right time (and perhaps Viera too?), how could you let him go? They probably SHOULD have won the Carling Cup last season with a reserve team, but Chelsea fluked it with all their stars in attendance.

[dogsout]

Fair play, but I'd just like to point out that that comment was made half in jest, as a show of scorn at our inability to kill teams off (Man City) then go out and thump the next team. I was pissed off at our lack of consistency, obviously I'm even more pissed off with it now.

I've just got back from Liverpool, having been sitting in a car for several hours, I'm quite tired and can't really be arsed with talking about the game. I just thought I'd quote this magnificent post, Warszawa has summed up my thoughts and beliefs on Rafa and the current situation at our club brilliantly:

He's been playing catch up against two sides who've been developed over one and two decades respectively (Man Utd & Arsenal) & a Chelsea side with an infinite amount of money to spend. With less cash and less patient, dare I say less knowledgeable supporters on his back as early as half way through his first season (FA Cup exit) he's done as good as could reasonably be expected. Alex Ferguson needed seven seasons to finally win the league & neither him or Wenger have been sacked when they've gone four or five years without winning one of the 'big two' trophies. That's why their clubs are dominant, because they reward patience and stability - they're not pressuring the manager when they have a barren few seasons.

Liverpool Football Club these days is built on impatience and knee-jerk reactions. Fans are so frustrated that we haven't won the league in years they're easily swayed by the media and the masses of clueless fans who fail to acknowledge that long-term league success has always been built on stability in this country. When did Liverpool's decline begin in earnest, by the way? When the chain of stability was broken by bringing in a relative outsider in Souness. Which sides have dominated for the past 17 years? We know the answer. Too many Liverpool fans are like Newcastle supporters - Blaming the current manager for 17 years without a title, thnking that chopping and changing is the way to go - thinking that the next high profile appointment will magically bring glory.

Too many of you are interchangable with Geordies. One and the same, peas in a pod. Myopic blame, chop and change, stability hindered and in the blink of an eye it'll be forty years. And you'll deserve it. I won't be around to watch it if our special club goes the way of the modern, sensationalist 'sack not back' style, informed more by Sky & The Sun influenced media than by the time-honoured traditions we, Manchester United & Arsenal have reaped such rich reward from. Magnificent football clubs who, traditionally, have operated in the correct way with regards to on-the-pitch issues. Are we about the exit that esteemed club? It looks that way.

I mean, even the hapless, clueless Klinnsmann is mentioned in posts! For taking Germany to the semi-finals on home soil? Tell me how he was rated by his nation's fans prior to that "success"? Perhaps Terry Venables should be our next boss.

One European Cup, one FA Cup & another European Cup final isn't a bad return, you know. It isn't a bad start. Unfortunately, to today's "Sunday Supplement" fans it's not enough. And that's exactly why Liverpool Football Club is very, very close to going down the path trodden by so many former greats. Newcastle, Liverpool, Everton....We'll be looking on while Manchester United & Arsenal establish themselves are the most successful English clubs of all time - with an advantage we could never make up - if we're not careful. If we don't follow the examples set by them and us in years past.

[ras el hanout]

He's had four years! I don't know about not being a bad start but it's certainly a long one. Sure he won it with Houlliers team but he lost it with his own much better team. And Souness won the FA Cup.

Knee-jerk and impatience, flipping hell! We have made no progress in the Premiership. People in this thread keep saying we've made progress, we've made progress, we've definitely made progress. Well, that should be pretty quantifiable. Let's have some statistics because I certainly can't see any progress in the way we play!

So, if you're happy to finish 4th or 5th then yeah, keep him, he's the man for the job and has proved it. If you want us to finish higher then we're going to need a manager better suited to the Premiership, it's as simple as that,

Hey, and Salako and LeTissier said this week what I said months ago, that's why I meantioned it. That's if Warsasaza is suggesting I take my lead from The Sunday Supplement. They take their lead from me!

[tyler]

You looked like you'd made progress in 2005-06 but last season you dropped back to being 20pts off the Champions.

[ras el hanout]

You looked like you'd made progress in 2005-06 but last season you dropped back to being 20pts off the Champions.

Houllier got pretty close to winning the league too!

[tyler]

Houllier coming 2nd in 2002 was a lot closer aswell (even though the points were similar) as Chelsea basically didn't turn up for their last two games in 2006.

2006-07 (Benitez)

1. Man United 89

3. Liverpool 68

2005-06 (Benitez)

1. Chelsea 91

3. Liverpool 82 (FA Cup)

2004-05 (Benitez)

1. Chelsea 95

5. Liverpool 58 (Champions League)

2003-04 (Houllier)

1. Arsenal 90

4. Liverpool 60

2002-03 (Houllier)

1. Man United 83

5. Liverpool 64 (League Cup)

2001-02 (Houllier)

1. Arsenal 87

2. Liverpool 80

STAT.

[Guest]

I kinda agree with Ramone. Knee jerk/whatever, what progress has been made in the Premiership in the last 10 years? I think we've only seriously challenged once, right? 10 years! There's your ten years. Since then Man Utd have had a core of players, and since then REBUILT adding players like Rooney, Ronaldo, Hargreages, Vidic, Ferdinand, etc.

Keane, Beckham, Sheringham, Ollie, Scholes [effectively], Cole, Irwin, Yorke, Schmiecal - hey they're all gone now, and yet Man Utd aren't doing that badly are they?

Arsenal - time will tell but look what they're doing. Adams, Keown, Henry, Ljungbery, Pires, Viera, Cambell, Seaman, Parlour [lol!], all gone. In comes the new blood, looking very, very impressive.

STATS:

2001-2002 points = 7 difference

1 Arsenal 87

2 Liverpool 80

3 Man U 77

4 Newcastle U 71

2002-2003 points = 19 diff

1 Man U 83

2 Arsenal 78

3 Newcastle U 69

4 Chelsea 67

5 Liverpool 64

2003/2004 points = 30 diff

1 Arsenal 90

2 Chelsea 79

3 Manchester U 75

4 Liverpool 60

2004-2005 points = 37 diff

1 Chelsea 95

2 Arsenal 83

3 Manchester U 77

4 Everton 61

5 Liverpool 58

2005-2006 points = 9 diff

1 Chelsea 91

2 Manchester U 83

3 Liverpool 82

4 Arsenal 67

2006-2007 points = 21 diff

1 Manchester U 89

2 Chelsea 83

3 Liverpool 68

4 Arsenal 68

[kimble]

Have to agree with Warszawa here. Progress in football (like any business) is slow and steady unless you have the funds to try and buy success. Rafa is doing that, he's working on a long term plan, buying in class, signing school boys etc

You have to remember that you are chasing a moving target as well. It's not like MU/Chel/Ars are in decline.

What I do like is he seems to be honest about it and protects his team. Lesser managers would be out there slagging them off.

If we stick with him, let him shape the team and get them drilled in the football he wants to play then we will do fine.

Does anyone remember the whole "zonal marking" topic when he first arrived. Everyone was saying you cant play this, it just wont work in England etc. Now I would say we have one of the best defences in the premiership.

IMO we are missing a couple of things: Kewell at top fitness, Pennant and Babel with a better final delivery and Alonso back to his best. With that in place we should have the creativity to kill off teams faster.

A couple of defensive players better at distribution (return of agger?) should help as well.

[Guest]

I suppose when it comes down to it we've got the...4th best prem manager? 5th? You'd have to go with:

1) Ferguson

2) Wenger

3) Mourinho

4) Benitez??

Unless we already think Sven is that good , or Moyes is better considering what he's had to work with.

O'Neill?

Harry (never had great success to be fair)?

[tyler]

I suppose when it comes down to it we've got the...4th best prem manager? 5th? You'd have to go with:

1) Ferguson

2) Wenger

3) Mourinho

4) Benitez??

Unless we already think Sven is that good , or Moyes is better considering what he's had to work with.

Mourinho isn't a Premiership manager though.

[Guest]

Mourinho isn't a Premiership manager though.

Surely you know what I mean. Those with some pedigree in the Prem as well as those currently managing there.

[ras el hanout]

Carragher, Mascherano, Alonso, Gerrard, Kewell, Torres, Crouch, Benayoun, Babel, Kuyt, Pennant - you give any half decent manager those players and I'd say they'd be at least 4th or 5th in the Premiership.

[V3zna]

Carragher, Mascherano, Alonso, Gerrard, Kewell, Torres, Crouch, Benayoun, Babel, Kuyt, Pennant - you give any half decent manager those players and I'd say they'd be at least 4th or 5th in the Premiership.

They've nearly all been either signed or flourished under Benitez! What more do you want from Rafa? He's rebuilt our team from the dark last days of Houiller and he's up against Romans millions, Fergusons self confessed best ever Utd team and Wengers amazing conveyor belt of world wide youngsters.

Carragher - came good as a centerback under Benitez

Mascherano - signed by Benitez

Alonso - signed by Benitez

Gerrard - used in a new position on the right and scored his highest ever amount of goals

Kewell - not signed by Benitez but has played well when actually fit

Torres - signed by Benitez

Crouch - signed by Benitez

Benayoun - signed by Benitez

Babel - signed by Benitez

Kuyt - signed by Benitez

Pennant - signed by Benitez

So many of the above would not be at Anfield today if Benitez was not at the helm and that's a fact. God knows where the hell we would be if Rafa had not taken over when he did. Look a bit deeper and you will see we have won the FA Youth Cup for the past two seasons. The boss is laying some serious foundations for a crop of good youngsters to come through in a couple of years.

I rarely visit this thread anymore or even RAWK. The knee jerk idiots that claim to be Liverpool fans make me despair sometimes.

There is no quick fix. Alex Ferguson took seven long years to get it right. Benitez deserves something similar.

[ras el hanout]

They've nearly all been either signed or flourished under Benitez! What more do you want from Rafa? He's rebuilt our team from the dark last days of Houiller and he's up against Romans millions, Fergusons self confessed best ever Utd team and Wengers amazing conveyor belt of world wide youngsters.

Carragher - came good as a centerback under Benitez

Mascherano - signed by Benitez

Alonso - signed by Benitez

Gerrard - used in a new position on the right and scored his highest ever amount of goals

Kewell - not signed by Benitez but has played well when actually fit

Torres - signed by Benitez

Crouch - signed by Benitez

Benayoun - signed by Benitez

Babel - signed by Benitez

Kuyt - signed by Benitez

Pennant - signed by Benitez

So many of the above would not be at Anfield today if Benitez was not at the helm and that's a fact. God knows where the hell we would be if Rafa had not taken over when he did. Look a bit deeper and you will see we have won the FA Youth Cup for the past two seasons. The boss is laying some serious foundations for a crop of good youngsters to come through in a couple of years.

I rarely visit this thread anymore or even RAWK. The knee jerk idiots that claim to be Liverpool fans make me despair sometimes.

There is no quick fix. Alex Ferguson took seven long years to get it right. Benitez deserves something similar.

Knee jerk idiots? Who are they then?

I know full well he bought those players, I've said many times he's built a fantastic squad, one capable of winning the Premiership. Certainly one capable of challenging under the right manager.

We did win the youth cup twice - thanks to Heighway, not Benitez, but then Benitez fell out with Heighway and now he's gone.

And okay, let's give Benitez 7 years, he might win it in time for Gerrard's retirement. We've got the young players coming through, he might start playing Lucas then.

And sorry you don't come in here much, hey, let's just pretend everything is fine then, eh? He just needs more time.

I love the way the ones who back Rafa think they're better fans.

[El Pibe]

Clearing out some deadwood like Pennant, should be first. Not Crouch!

[Kelthink]

Pennant's been good for us, I think. Sure, he hasn't scored much, but he's helped the team quite a bit (apart from when he was recently injured, obviously). No way is he deadwood, and I wouldn't say Kewell is (who is still trying to get back up to full match fitness). My deadwood list would be Riise, Sissoko and Voronin. Kuyt certainly has been off his game recently but I wouldn't chuck him out, he's still a valuable asset, if he gets played as a striker and not some wide man.

[ras el hanout]

We haven't really seen enough of Voronin. And I like Sissoko so we're keeping him, you racist. I'd keep them all actually, only because it's got to the stage where I can't tell if the players are bad or just playing bad.

[Guest]

We haven't really seen enough of Voronin. And I like Sissoko so we're keeping him, you racist. I'd keep them all actually, only because it's got to the stage where I can't tell if the players are bad or just playing bad.

That's cos Rafa's Random Team Selector means they rarely play twice in two games.

I'm surprised we haven't seen Crouch in goal as of yet. But, plenty of time till the season close!

[Kelthink]

We haven't really seen enough of Voronin. And I like Sissoko so we're keeping him, you racist.

Grr

I think he's good but I just don't see him developing at Liverpool whilst Masher and Alonso are on the scene. And we don't see enough of Voronin because every time he plays, he somehow disappears whilst being on the pitch at the same time. Not good enough.

[Commander Jameson]

Here's my (rambling) take on the situation.

What I can see is a core of quality young players (Reina, Agger, Alonso, Mascherano, Gerrard, Torres). These are the players that I would think could get into any of the top 4 teams. This is the spine I would base the team on and rarely rotate.

After that, there are a number of solid (possibly declining?) first team players that will need replacing in the near future (Finnan, Carragher, Hyypia).

There is a group of players that feel like stop-gaps in that they aren't first choice in their position, but can do a job there (Arbeloa, Aurelio, Benayoun).

There are some younger players who may or may not make it in the PL (Babel, Lucas).

There are a couple of older players that don't look like they can cut it any more (Kewell, Riise).

Finally there are the players that I personally think haven't worked out for whatever reason (Kuyt, Pennant, Sissoko, Carson, Crouch, Voronin). These need to be moved on.

Of the youngsters, only Hobbs seems to have made a dent in the first team, which is fairly damning in itself.

Squad size is definitely an issue with us, I feel. We seem to have a lot of OK, if not outstanding, players; a lot of filler, rather than fewer players of quality. I guess it is all down to money that we can't go out and spend £15m on a Hargreaves or £20m on a Nani/Anderson (not that they are the quality of players I am talking about, but that we can't just go out and spend like that).

It's frustrating because when we play well, we can see how good it can be. But like for the last 10 years, we can't get that consistency going. Why though? What is stopping us going on a long winning streak? Why is it one day we can play amazing, flowing football and the next week we can't string two passes together? The worrying thing is that I can't see what the problem is. It's not like there are one or two weak links in the team with respect to players that you could say, "Oh. Swap these out and we're there.". Is it the formations we play? I don't know because we've seen that 4-3-3 formation work well in some away games, but disastrously in others.

I think the worry that people have is about progression. Are we seeing enough progress in the way we play and the results we achieve? Can he take the players we have and improve them over-and-above what ManU, Arsenal and Chelsea are doing because we are still playing catch-up? For the first time, I have to say that I don't know any more.

[dogsout]

They've nearly all been either signed or flourished under Benitez! What more do you want from Rafa? He's rebuilt our team from the dark last days of Houiller and he's up against Romans millions, Fergusons self confessed best ever Utd team and Wengers amazing conveyor belt of world wide youngsters.

Carragher - came good as a centerback under Benitez

Mascherano - signed by Benitez

Alonso - signed by Benitez

Gerrard - used in a new position on the right and scored his highest ever amount of goals

Kewell - not signed by Benitez but has played well when actually fit

Torres - signed by Benitez

Crouch - signed by Benitez

Benayoun - signed by Benitez

Babel - signed by Benitez

Kuyt - signed by Benitez

Pennant - signed by Benitez

So many of the above would not be at Anfield today if Benitez was not at the helm and that's a fact. God knows where the hell we would be if Rafa had not taken over when he did. Look a bit deeper and you will see we have won the FA Youth Cup for the past two seasons. The boss is laying some serious foundations for a crop of good youngsters to come through in a couple of years.

I rarely visit this thread anymore or even RAWK. The knee jerk idiots that claim to be Liverpool fans make me despair sometimes.

There is no quick fix. Alex Ferguson took seven long years to get it right. Benitez deserves something similar.

I've noticed this and commented on it before now. Don't stop posting in here just because a few people can't see the bigger picture. I know it's irritating but this thread used to be great, and posters such as yourself, daveypauley, Commander Jameson, Graham S, Scouser_in_exile and some others I've surely forgotten have been sorely missed in these parts for a while now. I noticed the decline in activity of the aforementioned posters has coincided with the knee jerk brigade that has sprung up in recent months.

I'd be interested to know who the doubters and naysayers think could come in and do a better job than Rafa. If he is replaced the new manager is going to want his own team. He's not going to want to play with players that don't suit the system he employs. He's not going to rate some of the players that we see as being key at the moment, and he's not going to be able to keep all of Rafa's signings happy at the club unless the players believe him to be an improvement over Rafa. He's going to need time to build a dynasty of his own. Only Mourinho has come to this country and won the Premiership straight away, obviously I don't have to point out how much spending power he had at his disposal in order to achieve this. He also inherited a team that had finished 2nd the season before, and had the likes of Robben and Cech already bought and on their way to the club.

Maybe he could come to Liverpool and emulate his success with our team. He and Rafa ask for similar things from their players in terms of work rate and defensive responsibility; but at what cost? The quick fix merchants probably want success so bad that they'd see the club sell its soul, maybe they'd be happy to watch our players surround referees whilst waving imaginary cards at him, and use other such stalwart Mourinho tactics as simulation and time wasting to bring that Old Lady home.

I'm sorry but I just couldn't imagine supporting that Liverpool. I'd have to, I have no choice over who manages the team, but I'd never wish for it. I think Mourinho has proved himself to be an astute manager but having spent too much time watching his teams play, I wouldn't fancy him in charge of ours. I'd hate for Liverpool Football Club to be reviled in the same manner as Chelsea were under him, both home and abroad.

And that is ignoring the distinct possibility that we couldn't even get him here if we tried. So I'll ask again: Which manager could realistically be brought in and do a better job than Rafa? A lot of the Spanish media take the piss out of us (the English) for the slating Rafa gets over here. They say he should come back to Spain and dominate La Liga, I'm starting to wonder if I was Rafa Benitez, if I wouldn't feel the same as them. If he leaves us, he can walk into pretty much any job going. That is surely a sign of his worth as a manager, if for whatever reason you are blind to his credentials as a manager or the progress he has made with this club.

[Shevchenko]

Houllier got pretty close to winning the league too!

Wasn't that Thompson? I thought Houllier was ill during that season.

[Sng]

Can I quickly highlight what I've said about him going or staying...

I imagine if he was out of the CL already then he'd be going in the next few days. As it is I think he'll stay. I also hope he'll stay, because Liverpool have clearly come a long way over the last few years. Just not enough yet.

... before I carry on.

I do think it's harsh to call people idiots for wanting to see the back of him. His selections must frustrate people at times. As must being halfway through the season and only having 4 wins at home under his belt.

His rotation does annoy me but I just hope it's down to him knowing a lot about football and putting in the right players to suit the opposition. But results and how the game plays out doesn't always seem to reflect that.

But he's been here a while and it's the best squad since I can remember. And now with the new owners I'm hoping he'll be able to nail some of his targets. If, in a couple of seasons, nothing comes of that... then I think it's time for him to bow out.

[DeNeo]

We seem to have a lot of OK, if not outstanding, players; a lot of filler, rather than fewer players of quality. I guess it is all down to money that we can't go out and spend £15m on a Hargreaves or £20m on a Nani/Anderson (not that they are the quality of players I am talking about, but that we can't just go out and spend like that).

Well that's the thing isn't it:

Liverpool

Reina - £6m

Arbeloa - £2.5m

Carra - Free

Agger - £5.8m

Aurelio - Free

Babel - £11.5m

Gerrard - Free

Alonso - £10.5m

Kewell - £5m

Torres - £20m

Crouch - £7m

Total = £68.3m

Man U

van der Sar - £2m

Neville - Free

Ferdinand - £29m

Vidic - £7m

Evra - £5.5m

Ronaldo - £12.2m

Hargreaves - £17m

Carrick - £18.6m

Nani - £14m

Rooney - £30m

Tevez - £20m

Total = £155.3m

Chelsea

Cech - £7m

Ferreira - £13.2m

Terry - Free

Carvalho - £20m

Cole - £5m + Gallas

Wright-Phillips - £21m

Lampard - £11m

Essien - £24.5m

Malouda - £13.5m

Drogba - £24m

Shevchenko - £30m

Total = £169.2m

Arsenal

Almunia - £0.5m

Eboue - £1.5m

Gallas - Free

Toure - £0.2m

Sagna - £6m

Hleb - £10m

Fabregas - Free

Flamini - Free

Rosicky - £6.8m

Adebayor - £7m

da Silva - £8.5m

Total = £40.5m

Obviously Arsenal's spend is the lowest thanks to signing some great youth players, but look at Utd and Chelsea - well over double, and some of those big money signings are from before Benitez even arrived. Unfortunately money does talk - our best player so far this season is also our most expensive signing. To get the 3 or 4 outstanding new players we need to challenge for the title we probably need to spend a fair bit more (and that includes £17m for Mascherano).

I cannot believe I just researched all that - I officially have no life