The old Man Utd Thread

[MojoChin]

I'm sorry, when we had Jones, Smalling, Evans, Rio and Vidic it wasn't enough to constantly fill 2 centre back spaces, never mind fill them well. Now our system requires 3 CBs and we have replaced Rio and Vidic with Rojo, Blackett and Keane? That's not a good scenario, especially as Blackett doesn't look close to good enough at this level (yet?) and Keane hasn't even been tried. We definitely need another CB in.

I think I'll only be happy if we at least sign 1 more CB and a CM.

[ckny]

That can't be right, where did you read that? We have to be getting something from the Nani side of things, otherwise why let him go at all?

Well it's on the BBC now, so consider me humbled. Fuck me, what is going on at this club these days. Is Gill still involved in any way? He needs to take Woodward to task for this shit.

[Bleeders]

Ridiculously good deal for Sporting.

I read the club are desperate to get rid of Ando. No takers yet.

[spork]

Nani is a player on a decent wage and who wasn't going to have a place in the squad while we really needed a new defender. People have been moaning about us not just paying the asking price to secure new players and now we have, so don't moan!

[Mr Do 71]

Well it's on the BBC now, so consider me humbled. Fuck me, what is going on at this club these days. Is Gill still involved in any way? He needs to take Woodward to task for this shit.

The problem is those fucking yanks.

[bowser123]

What makes you think LvG doesn't like Shaw or Rafael? The two best players we have on our books to play the wing back role in his preferred 3-5-2 or 3-4-3 as he likes to call it.

I'm not sure what the best system is with our current crop of players to be honest. I think we really miss Welbeck, who has the pace to trouble teams which can give other players space. The game against Swansea was so slow for us in the build and it did quicken up in the second half it still wasn't anything like we saw.

It's going to be interesting to see how we line up against Sunderland at the weekend for sure. Who knows, might even get another signing in before then...

I think the manager has looked at the problems we have with accommodating our (supposed) three best attacking players and came up with an elegant solution that places them all in their favoured position in the 3-5-2. You have two strikers in Rooney and Persie, Mata off them centrally and none of them wasted on the wing.

The problem is we don't have the rest of the players to make it work.

The most glaring issue is needing a minimum of 3 centre backs and barely having 1 if Evans is out. There's the issue of zero pace in the team, nobody dynamic and commanding in the middle. There's little movement up top so all the opposition had to do was crowd Herrera (or kick him to pieces like alien head did on Saturday) and before you know it we're back to last season of passing for passings sake, no penetration and reverting to endlessly giving it to the right wing. With Mata being peripheral. Like you say Welbeck would alleviate the pace and movement issues, but he isn't getting picked ahead of the golden boys.

The system also has no place for Januzaj which I think is a travesty.

With Shaw and Rafael in some of the problems go- they offer genuine pace and width, they know how to attack. My concern is Rafael absolutely will not stay fit for a season. So to expect him to obtain and maintain super human fitness standards and be ever present is an awful big ask. Just like I think it's a mammoth responsibility on Shaw too. With them out it's playing people out of position like Young and Valencia, and like we saw last season and on Saturday they will make mistakes that lead to us conceding. Rojo covers LB and CB so that helps.

Perhaps the saddest thing is lining up with one of Cleverley/Fletcher/Fellaini/Anderson in central midfield and expecting to do anything. I'm absolutely amazed all the talk is De Maria and not a CM.

If we played 4-2-3-1 then that houses Mata, De Maria and Januzaj. Rooney is fucked off and I'm really happy. That's my preferred system for the squad we have if we signed more CMs.

Only that isn't happening with him being made captain. Is Van Persie likely to be removed as a guaranteed start? So we play De Maria at wingback in the 3-5-2? We play him instead of Mata? We drop a striker and player him off the other front man?

Maybe it's paper talk but I fear you guys are right and the desire of the CEO to sign a star name for mega bucks to make him look good is driving that transfer. Though the manager said we don't have any wingers in the class of Ronaldo and De Maria, which is a pretty big statement of intent.

So maybe he's changing the system he spent all pre season sorting if De Maria does sign? I dunno, it's all a bit fucked and madness that nothing is sorted.

[bowser123]

The problem is those fucking yanks.

Don't get me wrong, I hate the parasites to the extent that I haven't given the club a penny since 2005 and won't until they've gone. Which greatly pains me. They're the biggest issue, but others are to blame too. Gill is just the same as Woowar, Fergie has his hands dirty, some players have been disgraceful post Fergie.

The owners have spent something close to 150M in the past three windows (so a year) with possibly more in the next week. The wage bill has sharply rose to the extent that only City have a bigger bill. They haven't interfered or dictated transfer policy, it's not their fault the acquisitions are so.

It was Fergie and Bobby Charlton that chose Moyes. Charlton publicly bad mouthed Mourinho. It's the CEO Woowar that is running his mouth about the ability to spend and "watch this space" statements. He's the one lowballing offers, panicking and then over spending on Fellaini. The pathetic way we sacked Moyes wasn't the owners either but the work of the CEO.

The owners ultimately signed off deals to pay dead wood millions a week which is why they haven't been sold, but I'm sure it's Gill and subsequently Woowar that are actually brokering these deals. I mean come on, giving Anderson a new deal when they did, it's a joke. It's of no surprise we haven't sold anybody for a decent amount as the wages the club pay are incredible so these guys aren't going anywhere.

Of course it's years of neglect and under investment all coming together now that is their fault. That the loss of the wizard has forced them to spend as they know the alternative is sinking, rather than any desire to spend. That they appointed the CEO so when he acts the clownboat it reflects on them... but like I say they aren't the only ones to blame.

[Guest]

There's plenty of talk in here, but surely we all need to be united in defiance if this shit carries on past the transfer deadline.

I'm obviously hoping we get at least a centre back and midfielder in the next couple of weeks, but if we don't, then I honestly feel I should make a stand and hold off on my support - both monetary and emotionally - until the club gets put back on track.

Now, this isn't all about winning, but that I simply feel that if we actually try to compete this season without any other signings, then it's showing me that there is a severe cancer at the club.

As one of the ambassadors of modern football, we should have a respectful hierarchy in place, and if we don't, then I really don't want to be part of it.

Maybe I'm being a bit reactionary, but the last few seasons - even towards the end of Fergie's reign - have been disheartening and I feel like I'm constantly waiting to be proved wrong.

So, before anyone thinks what I've said above is my absolute stance from now on, it isn't. I just want the owners, the CEO, the manager, whoever to prove me wrong. They've still got a week or so.

[bowser123]

Sorry Jon, your stance is utterly futile and a decade too late.

The cancer has been there for years and the club is rotten to the core. I'll never agree or understand with the retraction of emotional support, I really don't get the catalyst for this action if 2004 and 2005 didn't cause it.

It reads to me like I'm taking my ball and going home because the club won't buy shiny new toys and win everything... despite it splashing out loads of late on expensive toys. Yet the clubs existence being put into danger didn't cause this reaction?

You speak of wanting to compete, presumably for the CL. We stopped doing that the year we sold Ronaldo, bought Valencia, Obertan and Owen and banked the cash. Before spending said banked cash on buying back bonds. In Rome we got monstered, playing Giggs and Carrick centrally. To this day that issue hasn't been addressed.

Talk of united in defiance isn't going to happen. The support base is shattered into factions that don't get along, there's no unity or consistent message. You have match goers who swallowed everything Fergie said, that are either unaware or don't care about the owners. Folk that go to the match and grumble. You have boycotters that attend FCUM, boycotters that don't. Some people that don't go because they can't afford tickets or having to automatically pay for Cup games. You have supporters that treat matches as a day out once a year and travel the globe for it. Some fans charter a plane (the same group that started G&G), other fans boo it. The only thing they all have in common is that none of them can agree on anything, nevermind coordinate action. Wearing a green and gold scarf whilst holding a season ticket after spending a ton in the mega store on the latest full kit is the message.

None of the supporters groups have any power. Any that speak out get ostracised by the club, so they tow the line. The biggest, MUST, are utterly pointless and seemingly only want to act if they get the credit, even then they are completely unwilling to do anything that'll upset the club. What did MUST do? Collect a million email addresses, claim they have this many followers (who didn't have to pay, vote, provide accurate details) and then do what with these emails?

Anything remotely militant like Red Issue (who created G+G) are very much in the minority, they didn't have the numbers years ago and have lowered in numbers now. The clubs banners are made by a tiny, self elected committee that are partly funded by the club. They make shit Manchester band based banners and The Chosen One so don't expect anything from that source.

No former players speak out, probably because they're on the pay roll or have a massive respect for Ferguson so won't go against anything he said. So you won't get a change through them. The media give it some coverage, but it's fleeting and has no staying power. The governing bodies don't give a fuck, they deem we're OK yet City are evil for unreservedly pumping cash in which they don't ask for back.

The club don't give a fuck. They want people to pay up, sit down and shut up, which people do. The club knowingly has a negative effect on the managers preparation and charter tours all over the place in pre season. They don't care what the manager says about this, they care about attracting a world wide audience so that they can tell adidas we have a billion fans and get obscene amounts of money from them in sponsorship.

[Oh Danny Boy]

Translation: I only support a team when they are winning.

[Guest]

To answer bowser's point, I know it's futile and probably too late, but it's something that's been building for a long time.

As I said, even during the last few years of Fergie's reign things weren't looking good. Yes, I know we were still winning a lot of things, but a progressive base for the team to build on was never put in place and ultimately we've ended up in a pretty bad situation. I think, at the time, Fergie's mastery of getting the best out of players masked a lot of the problems.

Then, last season, we had a disastrous transfer window, where it became quite easy to blame dithering Dave and the Equalizer. But they were both inexperienced and although Moyes lost his job, we were told to give Woodward another chance. Fast forward to this pre-season and we've got a new manager in place, who's quite obviously a talented, experienced guy, who has a stronger vision than Moyes ever would, but we're finding ourselves in the same position again. Ed has been telling us for weeks there's plenty of money in the kitty, but nothing is being done.

Hopefully we will bring in a couple more before the window shuts, but even if we do it's still disappointing to see the way we've gone about our business, when you look around and see how other teams are doing there's. Quick, efficient and with minimum fuss, making us look like amateurs.

Maybe LvG is as indecisive as Moyes, maybe Woodward is still learning the ropes or maybe all this talk of us investing in the squad is complete bollocks and is being used as a smokescreen to hide the Glazers' pilfering ways.

Something isn't right though and it's frustrating to watch.

One thing I don't understand though is why would the Glazers deliberately run the club into the ground? What would they stand to gain? Wouldn't it be more prudent of them to invest and watch the money come rolling in? I know we're currently making record profits, but surely that won't last if things carry on the way they are.

[Trigg]

I think the manager has looked at the problems we have with accommodating our (supposed) three best attacking players and came up with an elegant solution that places them all in their favoured position in the 3-5-2. You have two strikers in Rooney and Persie, Mata off them centrally and none of them wasted on the wing.

The problem is we don't have the rest of the players to make it work.

The most glaring issue is needing a minimum of 3 centre backs and barely having 1 if Evans is out. There's the issue of zero pace in the team, nobody dynamic and commanding in the middle. There's little movement up top so all the opposition had to do was crowd Herrera (or kick him to pieces like alien head did on Saturday) and before you know it we're back to last season of passing for passings sake, no penetration and reverting to endlessly giving it to the right wing. With Mata being peripheral. Like you say Welbeck would alleviate the pace and movement issues, but he isn't getting picked ahead of the golden boys.

The system also has no place for Januzaj which I think is a travesty.

With Shaw and Rafael in some of the problems go- they offer genuine pace and width, they know how to attack. My concern is Rafael absolutely will not stay fit for a season. So to expect him to obtain and maintain super human fitness standards and be ever present is an awful big ask. Just like I think it's a mammoth responsibility on Shaw too. With them out it's playing people out of position like Young and Valencia, and like we saw last season and on Saturday they will make mistakes that lead to us conceding. Rojo covers LB and CB so that helps.

Perhaps the saddest thing is lining up with one of Cleverley/Fletcher/Fellaini/Anderson in central midfield and expecting to do anything. I'm absolutely amazed all the talk is De Maria and not a CM.

If we played 4-2-3-1 then that houses Mata, De Maria and Januzaj. Rooney is fucked off and I'm really happy. That's my preferred system for the squad we have if we signed more CMs.

Only that isn't happening with him being made captain. Is Van Persie likely to be removed as a guaranteed start? So we play De Maria at wingback in the 3-5-2? We play him instead of Mata? We drop a striker and player him off the other front man?

Maybe it's paper talk but I fear you guys are right and the desire of the CEO to sign a star name for mega bucks to make him look good is driving that transfer. Though the manager said we don't have any wingers in the class of Ronaldo and De Maria, which is a pretty big statement of intent.

So maybe he's changing the system he spent all pre season sorting if De Maria does sign? I dunno, it's all a bit fucked and madness that nothing is sorted.

Yeah. I think we know what his thinking is with regards to playing the 3-5-2 system to accommodate the abundance of strikers/No 10s we have. Like youve said though, it does rely on others to make the system work. Especially I feel the wing backs and central midfield who need to supply those forward players in the right area.

We havent seen Rooney, Mata and Van Persie play together in this system yet so I cant really judge but I do feel it could be a problem with the lack of pace. Like you I too worry about Januzajs lack of play time but would love to see him paired up front with Rooney as a striker against Sunderland. Unless Welbeck is fit then Id like to see him play.

I dont think Di Maria will be signing, a good player as he is it does seem an odd choice to sign a winger when the manager as stated his intentions to play a system that doesnt use them.

Unfortunately I dont see us signing a quality midfield partner to go along with Herrera now either. Which could be very costly.

[Bleeders]

I fear our transfer business is probably done now.

On the face of it, we'd be fools not to throw money at Real for Di Maria and Khedira, both are available for £50m/£8m depending on who you believe, and are better options than what we have now, but when has common-sense ever dictated our transfer policy.

I suspect Ed is happy reading the Rags/Twitter, making up links to all and sundry to at least give the impression we're in the market still, whilst our rivals are tying up deals without much of a fuss.

Scholes' article in the Independent made for interesting reading, he didn't hold back on his indictment of the state of the club, which any level-headed fan would agree with. Read with interest when he suggested to Giggsy we sign both Kroos and Cesc, so no idea on where/how far/if those deals ever got going.

[AlwaysBeClosing]

Di Maria has requested to leave.

[Bleeders]

Him and Khedira both available, AdM has requested to leave whilst Khedira only has a year left on his current deal and has refused a new one.

[Trigg]

Him and Khedira both available, AdM has requested to leave whilst Khedira only has a year left on his current deal and has refused a new one.

They have requested to leave (well Di Maria as according to Ancelotti & Kehdira as reject an extension but yeah) but who's to say they'll want to come to United with no European Footballer on offer? Its by no means certain we'll be in Europe next year either.

[Bleeders]

Personally, I'd be surprised if either player ended up OT. Lack of European football for a season might be a deciding factor, but I think when the player's motivation to leave is because the money on offer from his current club isn't enough, then perhaps we have an outside chance of securing his services.

Can only hope.

[Lucky]

I think it's reached panic time for Utd.

You simply have to pay whatever it takes for Di Maria and maybe even Khedira too. (I hope we sign Khedira)

I'll be shocked if your business is done for this window.

[Trigg]

Wilson, Cleverley, Valencia, Anderson, Van Persie and Welbeck all trained today along with new signing Rojo. Hopefully some of those players are in contention for starting/on the bench on Sunday.

[ckny]

By 'some' do you mean 'one' and by 'one' do you mean van Persie?

[spork]

Nah, Trigg is a well known Cleverly and Ando fan.

[Rockboy]

Interestingly I saw a vid earlier of Ando doing that Ice bucket challenge thing that everyone seems to be doing, and... look at that stomach (or lack of)!!

Maybe... just maybe...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUXkPwLpy_o

[Liamness]

Fellaini nominated Moyes too.

If we just signed Khedira I would be pretty happy with this window, he is exactly what we need (along with another centre back). Di Maria would be nice, but the attacking positions are pretty crowded. He would add quality though, just at (presumably) a very high price.

Ideally Valencia and Rojo go straight into the starting XI, at right wing back and left centre back respectively. We should have a much more solid platform to build play from if that's the case. I'd prefer Welbeck to partner Rooney over Hernandez too. I think Cleverley should be looked at to start ahead of Fletcher too, unless we're playing against a team that have a slower midfield or don't press much, I think he has to do too much running in the 3-5-2. He doesn't seem capable of going up and down the pitch for 90 minutes right now.

[AlwaysBeClosing]

Cleverley. How in the world does he warrant selection?

[Gabe]

bowser, do you think the club would be in a better state now had Ferguson retired when he was originally going to? For a start, the takeover may not have happened, and I think it's fair to say that getting Ferguson onside was probably one of the best things the Glaziers did.

I don't think you would have been anywhere near as successful, but even so, do you think the state of the team in the longer term would be better?

[Trigg]

By 'some' do you mean 'one' and by 'one' do you mean van Persie?

Well I think Valencia, Van Persie and Cleverley are all contenders to start, possibly Rojo too.

Nah, Trigg is a well known Cleverly and Ando fan.

Well known fan?

[aidey6]

Marcos Rojo won't making his debut this weekend, as he hasn't got his work permit yet ....

[Liamness]

Herrera is injured apparently, so we are basically playing with last years squad minus some injured players. Literally the only good news is that Van Persie might be fit enough to play part of the game, and Valencia should be back. Admittedly the latter should make quite a difference, as we were a bit of a joke down the right against Swansea. I am not feeling good at all about our prospects, and we're going to play Sunderland! I think we're probably looking at Cleverley and Fletcher in the middle, Young and Valencia out wide, and the same back three. I would say that is, at a conservative estimate, five players that wouldn't be first choice if everyone was fit.

[Loik V credern]

The Guardian reporting that Van Gaal has told Welbeck he can leave, I know Hull are interested but Welbeck isn't [in them]. I don't want him to leave, and I'm surprised because he's a real Man United fan from the area and Van Persie and Rooney are getting on and his time will come sooner rather than later. It's not like a new striker has just been brought in. I get frustrated by his lack of a striker's instinct, i never expect him to be dangerous or threatening around the box, or be someone who is always looking for half a chance, he seems stuck in permanent link up play mode, but he's very good at it. And the Real Madrid away game showed he doesn't hide from the big occasion.

When he does shoot, they're mostly awfully skied blasts. If he could just work on creating chances for himself and getting shots at least on target. He seems to be this modern type of young forward like Jay Rodriguez or Shane Long who don't score many goals (though Rodriguez did last season he doesn't usually), but the ones they do score seem to be at a high level of difficulty and quite elegant and fancy, like a tight angle deft chip over the keeper or backheel flick. And they offer so much in their energy and movement.

Surely with Van Persie's and Rooney's injury record he'll get game time ? I'd rather Hernandez left and got a chance to be first choice striker for a team than Welbeck, who offers so much more than the standard striker. Barney Ronay called him a perpetual run-man which I thought was funny.

Looking at someone like Ramsey, who is similarly skilled and technical, he said the difference from scoring now and not scoring then is just composure, he was getting in the right places but not taking his time and was scuffing shots.

[Charliemouse]

I would love Welbeck at Spurs, I think he would fit into our system really well and would be a big upgrade on Lennon.