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The old Man Utd Thread

ThePixelbarks

By ThePixelbarks
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MojoChin

MojoChin

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I don't get it. Why do people believe Guardiola is a good manager? He was lucky enough to inherit the best team in the world TWICE. He couldn't NOT do well with the Barcelona side he had and he has made Bayern worse. I think he has performed about par with the resources at hand. You can't judge his management capabilities until he takes over a side where he has a bit of a challenge.

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dizogg

dizogg

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I don't get it. Why do people believe Guardiola is a good manager? He was lucky enough to inherit the best team in the world TWICE. He couldn't NOT do well with the Barcelona side he had and he has made Bayern worse. I think he has performed about par with the resources at hand. You can't judge his management capabilities until he takes over a side where he has a bit of a challenge.

Barcelona became the best side ever under him though. Like for a couple years they were pretty untouchable whilst also being really enjoyable to watch. I realise he inherited an incredible squad but he did as good a job as you could expect. Also he won the Bundesliga easily this season, weeks ago.

Real Madrid got a battering last season at this stage of the Champs. Is Mourinho a shit manager? Moyes inherited the current EPL champions and took them to 7th. Would it have been par for him to win the League? If so how bad a manager is he? When he was seen as doing above par with the resources at Everton for 10 years?

Its just so much less black and white. Although I do agree it'd be interesting to see Pep at Spurs or something to see what he'd do. But theres so many factors more than just "good players = good results" that I don't think you can take anything away from Pep for the incredible success he's had.

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MojoChin

MojoChin

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"Really enjoyable to watch" is an extremely subjective term. I found watching his Barcelona (and to a lesser extent his Bayern side) almost insufferable to watch. No denying the skill of the players involved and the technicality of it all, but from a spectacle point of view, it is awful.

I'd argue that that Barcelona side would have became the best side in the world regardless of who took over. Note, I never said he was a shit manager, but in my eyes he is unproven and he can keep his brand of boring possession football away from Utd. He won the Bundesliga so easy because it isn't a patch on what it has been in the recent past. We did beat Leverkusen 9-2 with Moyes! :o

As for Moyes, par would have been qualifying for the Champions League. But I always said from the start I would accept a spot lower down the table if he showed signs he was trying to change things. That wasn't the case, we were only getting worse. It can be said that Moyes was only SEEN to do above par with Everton, I think Martinez has proven that Moyes may well have been holding them back too. But I'm not gonna diss on Moyes. I like the man, he just wasn't the right fit for Utd.

My simple point is, thinking Guardiola can come in and work wonders at any team is a bit of a stretch...It may be true, but that is yet to be proven.

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Timmo

Timmo

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That's so naïve. Guardiola got Barca playing a unique brand of football, he was a visionary. Playing ten midfielders and pressing in such a way that 75% possession was the norm was unprecedented.

For what it's worth, I found that Barca team pretty dull to watch. At their peak unbelievably good, though.

Of course he's not perfect, and thankfully for the sport there is no tactic that will always win. He appears to have Wenger's problem of being a bit too bullish with his philosphy (he's much more pro-active than reactive), but you have to see that what he's done is special.

There's a great article about it on the Guardian today:

http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2014/may/01/the-question-is-this-the-end-for-tiki-taka-football

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Loik V credern

Loik V credern

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"Really enjoyable to watch" is an extremely subjective term. I found watching his Barcelona (and to a lesser extent his Bayern side) almost insufferable to watch. No denying the skill of the players involved and the technicality of it all, but from a spectacle point of view, it is awful.

It's awful when it doesn't work, but at its best it's amazing to watch. Over a whole match it can be boring, but individual passing moves can be exceptional. Like Arsenal, some of the individuals goals, like the one Wilshere and Rosicky scored are sublime flowing one two passing moves, the types of which are difficult to pull off 99% of the time but when it does come off it's pretty special.

Possession can seem to mean utter domination and sterilization, my ideal playing style would just be taking the fast free flowing one touch passing moves from it, one twos between 3 or 4 players, with the original passer running on and receiving the final pass, lots of changing of positions but keeping the move flowing, less emphasis on domination and winning the ball when you lose it and being happy to just control the game, and more emphasis on penetrating when you do have the ball, and discarding the complacent slowness that it can often devolve into being. I think that is Guardiola's flaw, being so obsessive about possession and control of a game (from a if we have the ball they have no chance of attacking us stance - he hates his players shooting from outside the box because maybe he sees it as a way to lose possession of the ball or a failure to play the game as he wants? Players should be passing across goal to a player to score a tap in ?) over chances created, I'd rather Bayern lost the ball more frequently, but when they do do something with it it is more direct and penetrative. Time ticks away and it's frustrating. It nullifies end to end football as well.

Some of Liverpool's attacking in the city game at the Etihad kind of does it, it's one touch fluid counter attacking,

The one that plays out at 1 minute is so good, they must recreate these situations over and over again in training. What gets me is Coutinho sees the dink and knows it's not for him but is alert enough to run into space behind Suarez, and knows that Suarez is good enough to lay the ball off for him, and I don't buy that you need extraordinarily gifted players to play like this, (as Rodgers proved at Swansea), but players who've practiced these passing moves and are alert to where they should be moving.

I haven't watched Bayern at all in the Bundeliga, only in the Champions League's latter stages where they've been disappointing. But this video from december 2013 shows how good the style can be, if not always.

There's nothing wrong with the philosophy, just the implementation, Guardiola doesn't need to change, or have a plan B, just make the plan A better, make it work. If you're controlling a game but not creating clear cut chances and penetrating then you're only implementing the style at like 60%. Guardiola, judging by his comments, seems to be in denial about that. There can never be an excuse about defenders sitting deep or playing against the best counter attacking team in the world, can there ?

Look at 1:20, the last passer knows where the runner will be behind him, i love stuff like that.

Also the Guardiola: Another Way of Winning book by Guillem Balague is great and worth a read, he somehow manages to make every sentence entertaining to read.

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Gabe

Gabe

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The thing is though in the Liverpool example (apart from how badly that offside against Sterling in the City game was) is that you need to have a very physically-fit team and a bit of pace helps too. In addition to that, to a degree you also need be playing against a team that are going to also be looking to attack (and so leave gaps over the pitch) - and that's not just a bitter dig about the Chelsea match . And Liverpool don't play that way all match, every match by any stretch - it's more about having the ability to do that in games when the opportunity presents itself.

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exwhyzed

exwhyzed

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Tiki Taka was just a perfect system for that Barcelona side with those specific players. I don't really see the hype about Guardiola, apart from one game vs City, they've looked poor against any decent side this year.

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Bleeders

Bleeders

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Yeah, sack him. ;)

In all seriousness, the two positive things out of this; no Europa League and hopefully now, it puts that ridiculous notion of giving Giggs the managerial job this soon to bed.

Assuming LVG comes in, he'll need to move on quite a few of painfully average players and bring some of his own in. Given we wouldn't be getting him till July either, that doesn't leave him with much time so I would foresee another season like this one, albeit one showing promise and hopefully with fewer losses as well.

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Gabe

Gabe

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I gather you lot were pretty awful today and another team wins after a long, long time. Is the LVG thing a pretty done deal then? What's his track record with buying talent, most of his teams have been largely added to here-and-there rather than needing wholesale changes, haven't they?

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