The old Man Utd Thread

[curium]

Money buys success in football and several clubs now have more money than United. From 1997 through 2004, United topped the consultancy Deloitte’s “rich list” of European football clubs ranked by revenues. In 2012-13, United dropped out of the top three for the first time since Deloitte began compiling the list. Real Madrid, Barcelona and Bayern Munich now have higher revenues. Moreover, Chelsea, Manchester City and Paris Saint-Germain have oil-rich owners who pump money in rather than sucking it out. By the logic of the market that means there are six clubs in Europe more likely to win the Champions League than United. In the domestic league, by the same logic, the club’s natural position is now third behind Chelsea and Manchester City. (Less wealthy Liverpool will probably win this season’s Premier League, but their overachievement is probably unique in recent English history.)

United’s biggest problem isn’t David Moyes. It’s money.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/e1e6e5d8-ca14-11e3-ac05-00144feabdc0.html#axzz2ziHnHACu

[phresh]

In all fairness, of the three ahead, two are funded by massively biased TV deals (i'm not sure about Bayern?), so that bit is largely irrelevant. If you look at commercial income I think it is only Bayern who finish ahead of United (Real take a percentage of all their players commercial rights and this shows up in their commercial figures where you don't also see the offset of much higher wages IIRC).

It should be impossible to overcome the first issue if we want to see at least some sort of chance of teams making it into the upper reaches of the PL and United are increasing their commercial income massively as the new shirt deal (next year?) will show.

[Trigg]

Seen these comments from Keane? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/manchester-united/10781786/Roy-Keane-Manchester-Uniteds-players-should-be-ashamed-of-themselves-over-David-Moyes-sacking.html

Seem pretty fair to be honest. Obviously Moyes made a lot of mistakes and was probably out of his depth, but the way some of the players have acted (Rio certainly, allegedly Giggs and others too) has been thoroughly unprofessional. Against Everton they just didn't look like they gave a shit at all.

He's right to a degree, the players overall have been a disappointment.

What I will say though, if the players have made Moyes life difficult then its up to him to sort that and if he's unable to then that kind of shows he had a problem and probably wasn't right for the job. I love Roy Keane, my favourite player of all time I'd say but he's hardly the man to be talking about that.

[The Fox]

I don't much like the author, but this was a decent read: http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/david-moyes-sacked-accidental-brian-clough

[exwhyzed]

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/e1e6e5d8-ca14-11e3-ac05-00144feabdc0.html#axzz2ziHnHACu

Should actually watch football rather than wanking over his econometric regressions.

[Graham S]

Was there any more detail to be had in the "Giggs hates Moyes" rumours?

[The Fox]

What do you think of Gab Marcotti's suggestion that you could benefit from a DOF at the club?

http://espnfc.com/blog/_/name/espnfcunited/id/14058?cc=5739

[angel]

[dizogg]

Yeah brilliant joke he's a multi-millionaire and won't ever have to work again if he chooses not to.

[angel]

I didnt make it, just chuckled at it. Yeah 5 million for failing, could be a lot worse.

[Guest]

Imagine how much money you'd have earnt by now if you were in his pay bracket, angel.

[feltmonkey]

What do you think of Gab Marcotti's suggestion that you could benefit from a DOF at the club?

http://espnfc.com/blog/_/name/espnfcunited/id/14058?cc=5739

i think it's a load of crap. directors of football are a bad thing in my opinion. they have two effects - managers get players signed for them that they haven't chosen themselves, and managers get sacked more frequently.

[angel]

Imagine how much money you'd have earnt by now if you were in his pay bracket, angel.

Didn't realise you were a dick Jon, cheers for clarifying it.

[Guest]

Am I on the naughty list?

[Commander Jameson]

i think it's a load of crap. directors of football are a bad thing in my opinion. they have two effects - managers get players signed for them that they haven't chosen themselves, and managers get sacked more frequently.

I thought with DOFs that you have coaches rather than managers and that you can have a higher turnover because the coaches are hired to implement the playing vision of the DOF, so it matters less who the actual coach is.

If implemented properly, you get the long term benefits of a consistent playing style across the entire club. It seems rare that that happens successfully though.

[Graham S]

Gabriele Marcotti makes the case for a DoF here

http://espnfc.com/blog/_/name/espnfcunited/id/14058?cc=5739

[feltmonkey]

If the manager is any good, he will get the reserve and youth coaches playing the same way as the first team anyway, you don't need DOF for that.

There's another problem with the system - this guy who's supposed to be dictating the football philosophy of the club generally isn't a top manager,or someone who actually has a really deep understanding of tactics. You're putting someone who doesn't have as much of a clue above your manager and giving them a license to meddle. Even if it works properly, all you've really got is the equivalent of one of those office managers we've all worked with who tells everyone they want profits to rise and outgoings to fall and then leaves the job of actually working out how to do this to everyone else, while congratulating themselves on their vision. It's a worthless position.

[The Fox]

Gabriele Marcotti makes the case for a DoF here

http://espnfc.com/blog/_/name/espnfcunited/id/14058?cc=5739

[Charliemouse]

The use of a Director of Football has been a disaster at Spurs, in fact the only time it seemed to work was when Jol was head coach and Frank Arnasen was the DOF.

Spurs though went a step further and not only had a DOF with Baldini but also hasa technical director who was Sherwood, of course it doesn't help that the two don't seem to get on, and the latter is a backstabbing arse hole.

[phresh]

I thought with DOFs that you have coaches rather than managers and that you can have a higher turnover because the coaches are hired to implement the playing vision of the DOF, so it matters less who the actual coach is.

If implemented properly, you get the long term benefits of a consistent playing style across the entire club. It seems rare that that happens successfully though.

This isn't all that far off what existed under Ferguson anyway. He himself admitted that he took less control of the day to day coaching as time went on and if you look at the variety of coaches, and their reputations* that were employed over his tenure there would be a lot of similar dynamics to having a DoF setup.

*Brian Kidd springs to mind and a lot of the plaudits around Mulesteen were said about him at the time he left IIRC. Add in Queiroz and don't forget Mclaren when United won the treble.

I think it's one thing Ferguson should be praised for - he brought in new and different coaches and it all helped to evolve the way United have played over the years. It's an interesting contrast to Wenger who has done quite the opposite in many respects and I think Arsenal have suffered because of that.

[feltmonkey]

there's nothing wrong with having an assistant manager who does a lot of the day-to-day coaching. but that's very different to a DOF situation, where you have one person who signs players and another who picks the team, makes match-day substitutions, etc.

[The Fox]

I do think football experience is highly beneficial in some capacity at executive level. David Dein wasn't a DOF as such, but he was clearly an extremely useful guy for Wenger to have around (even if there's a degree of rose-tinting about him from some Arsenal fans). We're totally lacking in that regard now and I'm fairly sure it's hurt us to an extent.

[feltmonkey]

i think we're suffering the same thing. David Gil was obviously someone who at least understood football to an extent. he seemed to know who the players he was negotiating for were, and didn't go into things thinking he knew better than the man managing the team. Ed Woodward seemed quite different. the crazily low bids for Baines and Febragas could only have come from someone who either had no idea how football transfers worked and the value of particular players, or had decided we didn't need to sign anyone (he said as much in the press, i believe) and was sabotaging the efforts.

if only there was some link that someone could post explaining the positive side of a DOF. perhaps some European journalist might have written a piece. we'll never know.

[The Fox]

Well there are obviously loads of clubs where it works just fine, including in England.

[Rev]

there's nothing wrong with having an assistant manager who does a lot of the day-to-day coaching. but that's very different to a DOF situation, where you have one person who signs players and another who picks the team, makes match-day substitutions, etc.

I think what Man Utd had was Ferguson as a DOF as he picked the players to buy, but also handled match day as well. But then didn't do much of anything else that the manager normally does in terms of coaching etc.

It was a very, very odd set up in terms of the game but it's actually quite logical when you think about it. It's what Football Manager simulates for a start.

[merman]

Moyles was sacked before the New York Stock Exchange opened for trading on Tuesday. Because the share price is more important than the football.

[ckny]

Or because we do things in GMT? The share price actually rose after the market opened.

[exwhyzed]

It doesn't really make a difference to the Glazers what the share price is unless they are selling the club tomorrow.

[Guest]

I've got a feeling that with Moyes now out of the way we'll absolutely smash Norwich tomorrow. I'm going for 12-0.

That way we'll start to rebuild some of the records that Moyes managed to unravel. We'll have the most ever goals scored in a prem match and the biggest ever win.

If we managed to score ten of those in the first half, that'll be another.

[gospvg]

Norwich are fighting for survival, it will not be an easy game.

I'd still put you down for the win maybe 1-0