The old Man Utd Thread

[Ran]

City were good, but United were just very average again. Deserving of the end result. The shift in attitude is astonishing, after that first goal an away team wouldn't have a had a moment's peace last season.

[exwhyzed]

Louis van Gaal after the world cup, lads.

[Guest]

Januzaj wasn't on the bench though.

No, you made suggestions once again, You make your mind up before you even get to watch highlights or whatever it is you'll judge us on - we didn't play badly, City were just very good.

Mate, just think about it. If I'd already made my mind up, why would I have come in here asking how we played, even though I knew we'd been beat 3-0?

Let me put it another way then - if you're basically saying City were simply better than us, what should we be looking at changing or improving so we're better than them? Would a new manager be the answer? Do we need the players to step up their game? Do we need new players? Or is it something else?

[exwhyzed]

Fellaini put in possibly the worst performance by a United player in a decade. Just basic shit like being the right side of Yaya when trying to tackle him, so when you fuck it up he cant run straight at the back four. There was a point in the first half where there was a header to be won on the back post with Clichy and he didn't even try and challenge for it. What the fuck are you there for if not to win headers. He let Zabaleta have a free header off one of DDGs kicks. Just stood there watching him. He's easily as lazy as Berbatov but about a thousand times worse when he does actually have the ball. City would get past him and he'd make no effort to try and get back goal side. I don't know where the fuck he was going in the second half, a lack of tactical discipline that would embarrass even Steven Gerrard. Absolute dickhead. Massive cheer when he came off. Cunt.

[Mercury]

I hate to say it but I really hope he resigns or leaves by mutual consent. I don't think he's a bad Manager but he is clearly out of his depth at United and is humiliating the club. I know we have the CL QF but I can't see that a Caretaker Manager could do any worse so I'd rather he went sooner than later.

[stefcha]

Mate, just think about it. If I'd already made my mind up, why would I have come in here asking how we played, even though I knew we'd been beat 3-0?

Your first words were that you assumed it was a shambles, which I suppose is what he's getting at. For what it's worth I thought Man U played really well at times, especially in the first half after City had a lot of initial 10 minutes they were really banging away, but without much reward. Ultimately though, some of the players just weren't very good in comparison to their opposition - Fellaini & Ferdinand particularly standing out.

[dizogg]

Whilst Utd weren't awful they never looked threatening. City dealt with you easily without hitting top gear.

Its just a total 180 from the Man Utd i've been used to that almost always looked like they could score at any moment.

[Nicky]

guarded by security.

[Bleeders]

Thought Scholes played a blinder as a pundit last night.

[stefcha]

I thought he wasn't so good. Mumbled, and struggled to make a point. He was good in giving an insight of how it was in comparison to when he was playing or what was expected of him though, obviously hurt him to watch and I could swear he was almost grimacing when the host said to finish off "well, at least we can agree we saw a great game tonight!" or something. Harsh.

[ckny]

guarded by security.

Is it really though? Or are stewards normally placed there after the match anyway? I suspect it's a misleading image.

[fat flatulent git]

Reports I read were that angry fans had to be prevented from tearing it down. Either on BBC it Yahoo.

[JamesTW]

guarded by security.

is it the clubs property? I thought the fans put that up

[The Fox]

Thought Scholes played a blinder as a pundit last night.

Seriously? I thought he was poor. Loads of clichéd crap on both United and Arsenal, with nothing new or interesting that I noticed, stumbling over his words quite a bit. You could tell from the Arsenal segment that he'd seen fuck all of the team this season.

[Guest]

Your first words were that you assumed it was a shambles, which I suppose is what he's getting at. For what it's worth I thought Man U played really well at times, especially in the first half after City had a lot of initial 10 minutes they were really banging away, but without much reward. Ultimately though, some of the players just weren't very good in comparison to their opposition - Fellaini & Ferdinand particularly standing out.

If it was a one off, then maybe the scoreline wouldn't be all that bad, but it isn't and we don't seem to have an answer to it. Maybe he performance last night wasn't the shambles the scoreline suggests, but after some of the performances I've seen this season surely I can be forgiven for asking if it was more of the same.

[Baring]

Seriously? I thought he was poor. Loads of clichéd crap on both United and Arsenal, with nothing new or interesting that I noticed, stumbling over his words quite a bit. You could tell from the Arsenal segment that he'd seen fuck all of the team this season.

He was right about the Arsenal midfield and especially that Wilshere hasn't improved a lot. I think he's very overrated just like many young English talent.

[MojoChin]

Don't let anyone kid you Jon. The performance last night WAS a shambles. Just because the possession and shots stats seem to say we were competing, we blatantly weren't. The team have no drive or determination. Man City cruised to victory and if they had have kicked into top gear, they could have blitzed us. The defence was shocking, midfield non-combative and forward line complacent. There are plenty of players in the team that mean we shouldn't be in 7th in the league, but there is also plenty of players well past their best and a manager who can't inspire them to play. I have been long in the "keep Moyes" camp, but I can't justify him ploughing a load of money into the team in the summer when we have only shown signs of regression since he took over.

Someone who can inspire the team to actually seemingly want to play is required. Moyes plainly can't do it.

[The Fox]

He was right about the Arsenal midfield and especially that Wilshere hasn't improved a lot. I think he's very overrated just like many young English talent.

I shan't post any more on this because it's a derail, but this is bollocks. He was saying the same old crap you used to hear years ago. "No Vieira", "no leaders" etc. It's cliched beyond belief. Arteta had a stinker last night, but he's vocal and a "leader". Ditto Flamini and Mertesacker. And when have Arsenal struggled this season through getting physically bullied? It's totally irrelevant and was basically tabloid guff from 2006-2010, regurgitated.

Arsenal are 6pts off the leaders and have been top of the league for most of the season -- is that "a million miles from being contenders"? We're falling away because we're missing our best 4 players, and the players left are a) not as good, and b) knackered. It's that simple.

As for the attack on Wilshere, I'm not his biggest fan by a long shot but that's just unfair to single him out for criticism. He was out injured for a year, came back into a totally different midfield from the one he left, and has struggled with knocks ever since. It's hardly surprising that his progression stalled.

I like Scholes as a player obviously, and it was nice to see him on telly, but for me his lack of insightful commentary was really disappointing.

[Loik V credern]

this is an okay read

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/managers/david-moyes/10709107/31-reasons-David-Moyes-must-leave-Manchester-United.html

most of it isn't new, but the statistics for his most expensive strikers that he bought at Everton, pre everton career and everton career are interesting, or maybe just coincidental.

I also like the screen grab from 5 minutes into the fulham game where the players are miles away from each other sat next to the screen grab from Bayern against city where every player in view has two easy available passes if they receive the ball.

[Guest]

He should be in the Guinness book of records with the amount he's broken this season. Norris McWhirter would be proud.

[fat flatulent git]

Number 20 is wrong. United lost a league cup leg to Stoke in 93-94. Perhaps they mean in the league.

[angel]

Thought Scholes played a blinder as a pundit last night.

came to post this, he was great, no sugar coating...with a bit of help he would be a great regular. Very Neville-like in his honesty. The Arsenal stuff in particular, absolutely nailed them dead on.

[V3zna]

came to post this, he was great, no sugar coating...with a bit of help he would be a great regular. Very Neville-like in his honesty. The Arsenal stuff in particular, absolutely nailed them dead on.

He's the last person you would have thought would have done Sky Sports but he was interesting to listen to.

Is he employed at Utd still in a coaching role or something?

[Bleeders]

He helps Nicky Butt out as an assistant for the U19's

[barkbat]

There was a twinkle in his eye when talking about Barkley. I think ManU will make a massive bid for him this summer.

[feltmonkey]

That's exactly what we need - another number 10. Could he play as a central midfielder?

Some United fans I've been talking to today have been dreaming of a "holy trinity" of Giggs, Gary Neville, and Scholes taking over from Moyes. It's a bit unrealistic, and I'm not sure about a trio of novices being given £100m to spend, but how great would that be?

[MojoChin]

That's exactly what we need - another number 10. Could he play as a central midfielder?

Some United fans I've been talking to today have been dreaming of a "holy trinity" of Giggs, Gary Neville, and Scholes taking over from Moyes. It's a bit unrealistic, and I'm not sure about a trio of novices being given £100m to spend, but how great would that be?

Don't forget Phil...

[Loik V credern]

Raphael Honigstein article on Bayern Munich, makes them sound scary

The word itself had become joke, a brutal eight-letter punchline that knocked down all of Bayern Munich's notorious pomposity, their sense of entitlement and delusions of grandeur. But on Tuesday night, it ceased to be funny. Borussia Dortmund manager Jürgen Klopp reached for it in his impromptu eulogy for the new Bundesliga champions, because there was really no other way to describe their superiority. "They are incredible," said Klopp. "We truly need binoculars to see them. And I can even enjoy watching them at times because they're playing fantastically well."

Binoculars. Fernglas in German. Uli Hoeness, the soon-to-be incarcerated president and architect of this Bayern team, had coined the phrase in May 2007. "We have to make sure that there will be wailing when the others are looking at us in the table with binoculars," Hoeness had announced at the time. The grandiose mission statement had come back to haunt him many times over the next couple of years as Bayern stumbled from one managerial crisis to the next without making any real lasting progress.

Louis van Gaal's arrival in 2009 laid the foundation of the upswing but it needed Jupp Heynckes to take the team to an unprecedented treble and the fastest Bundesliga title, 25 points ahead of the opposition in 2012-13. In Pep Guardiola's first season in charge, they've opened up the same gap with seven games to go.

The 3-1 win at Hertha Berlin sealed a 24th championship that was never in doubt. All the incomprehensible numbers 77 points from 27 matches, 52 games unbeaten, 20 wins in a row don't quite do justice to the difference in class between them and a competition that wasn't quite worthy of the name. Bayern won the championship in March, earlier than last year and earlier than anyone else in any major European league, but, in truth, they have been out of sight from the first kick-off in August. "They were too dominant, too regal, too relaxed, too elegant, too cool for the rest of the league," wrote Spiegel Online.

The ease with which the Reds have dismantled allcomers their only two draws, 1-1s at Freiburg and Leverkusen in the autumn, appear to be freak results, retrospectively has been unsettling at times. Extensive fears about the competitive imbalance in the top flight put Bayern on the defensive. "We felt as if he had to apologise for our good work," press officer Markus Hörwick told Handelszeitung. But they didn't, of course. Sporting director Matthias Sammer instead accused the opposition of "not working as if there's no tomorrow in training". His intervention wasn't well-received.

It's one thing to win but did they have to beat everyone so convincingly in the process? There was much talk of the Bundesliga turning into the Scottish Premiership, of Bayern "trying to destroy" (Dortmund CEO Hans-Joachim Watzke) all opponents and many pointed to a desolate future in which the combination of Bayern's financial might, their squad quality and Guardiola's knowhow would render the whole idea of a title race absurd for years to come.

Over the last few days, however, the lament about their invincibility has given way to admiration for their achievement. Germany manager Joachim Löw praised the team's insatiability and uncompromising attitude. "They have the mentality of unconditional success," he said, "and they have a clear idea of a playing style that they stick to consistently from the first to the last minute."

Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung thought that the wide-felt "weariness of the Guardiola football" was unfounded: "It's a football that the Bundesliga has never experienced in 50 years; so delicate and precise, so playful and determined, so sophisticated and improved, so inspiring and exciting. No one has come this close to art with football in this land as Pep Guardiola."

"One has to love the magic of their passing game, their technical perfection," agreed Die Zeit. Swiss broadsheet Tages-Anzeiger gushed that "this FC Bayern has gone up another level, they have made football, German football that used to rely on very different virtues, into art; into a game full of beauty, with players who are constantly on the move and who only want one thing: the ball, always the ball, and never to give it away again."

The game at the Olympic stadium, while unspectacular and entirely predictable in its outcome, offered an instructive snapshot of the way Bayern have improved on what appeared an unimprovable last season: 82.4% of possession again marked a new best since records began 10 years ago. And there's no point in wondering whether other teams might have kept the ball better in the more distant past: no one has played that way before. Bayern passed the ball 1,078 times on Tuesday night to become the first Bundesliga team to notch up four figures. Captain Philipp Lahm, who was once again moved into midfield by Guardiola, epitomised Bayern's abnormal perfection on the ball. He played 134 passes and completed all of them.

At the final whistle, the team danced and sung in front of the away team section but the cold temperatures put paid to the traditional Weißbierdusche (beer shower). Even in jubilation, there was discipline and Guardiola spoke quietly of his "satisfaction" with winning the title, which he dedicated to Hoeness. He refused to wear the specially manufactured "24" baseball caps and watched proceedings from a distance. It was also interesting to hear the 43-year-old talk about "the four or five first months in which we had to solve many problems"; few people had noticed any.

Guardiola also warned that the next seven league games would be needed to improve on "our pace, our rhythm in every single game". This might have been the most impressive league campaign that the Bundesliga has witnessed but for Guardiola and his players, it was just the minimum target.

They have outgrown the league and must therefore find true validation abroad. It is the European history books they want no: have to get into, with a first successful defence of a Champions League trophy.

I don't necessarily want United players to have to suffer utter domination and painful misery, but at the same time...running out of big games for United to be humiliated enough to force a decision on Moyes. I thought the City game was worse than the Liverpool loss, just seemed like City didn't even have to try, it was the most comfortable 3 nil win I've seen. It was like after the first goal City just coasted, let United have the ball because they knew they weren't dangerous with it.

[Guest]

The only reasons I can see that Moyes hasn't yet been sacked are that the season's a write off anyway and leaving him in place until the summer will give the board the time to find a suitable replacement.

Or, they have faith in him and that he's here to stay. He'll get the big transfer kitty and they're confident he can turn it around.

I really hope it's the former because what I've seen of his man management, his defeatist nature and tactical ability doesn't instill me with any confidence whatsoever.

[feltmonkey]

I have no confidence that he can turn things around - they have actually got quite a bit worse in the last two or three months.